Agreement in principle reached.

[CPU2000]

I'd add...Given the Canadian industry is smaller than the American one...every deal is that much more critical

97% strike vote and they got a deal a week before the strike date...did they really get everything they could? Hard to think they did...

[cdnavater]

"I don't care, I'm outta here anyways"

That's one of my biggest pet peeves. Jazz couldn't get a bigger FO raise, because then AC would be paying FOs less than Jazz. Sounds to me like a great reason to pay everyone more.

If the Q400/regional pilots are making good money, that encourages the 737/NB/mainline to ensure adequate pay bump.

My guess would be the company said, go ahead and strike we will shut Encore down and the union got spooked

[digits_]

"I don't care, I'm outta here anyways"

That's one of my biggest pet peeves. Jazz couldn't get a bigger FO raise, because then AC would be paying FOs less than Jazz. Sounds to me like a great reason to pay everyone more.

If the Q400/regional pilots are making good money, that encourages the 737/NB/mainline to ensure adequate pay bump.

My guess would be the company said, go ahead and strike we will shut Encore down and the union got spooked

"So you're saying mainline will do the encore flights then?"
- 'yes'
"ok, shut 'er down"

[goingnowherefast]

That's one of my biggest pet peeves. Jazz couldn't get a bigger FO raise, because then AC would be paying FOs less than Jazz. Sounds to me like a great reason to pay everyone more.

If the Q400/regional pilots are making good money, that encourages the 737/NB/mainline to ensure adequate pay bump.

My guess would be the company said, go ahead and strike we will shut Encore down and the union got spooked

"So you're saying mainline will do the encore flights then?"
- 'yes'
"ok, shut 'er down"

With what airplanes?

In case management hasn't read the news recently, Boeing is seriously behind on deliveries. Is mainline gonna pull a bunch of max 7s outta their ass to replace the Encore flying?? Oh yeah, the certification for the Max 7 (and 10) is still behind schedule.

WestJet needs Encore to move the passengers, otherwise AC/Porter/Flair/Jetlines will gladly do it.

With the wages offered, and such abysmal COL increases (2%), management must be trying to shut Encore down. It'll stem the bleeding for a few months while everyone else keeps leapfrog-ing each other and leaves Encore in the dust again.

[flyingfool]

When the company was going to shutdown WestJet the line was "well, we are going to shut the airline down with these demands"

Anybody but a total idiot knew it was a total bluff

And guess what...it was

This would have been no different.

That is a union's job...to call the bluff

[RippleRock]

From this preliminary data, this AIP has ACPA stink all over it. My bet is a former "infamous" MEC Chair is employed by your management team.

He was a former MEC Chair over at your Mainline's competition, is now retired, and became a "consultant for pilot WACON oppression". He is a master of "moving stuff around" to alter the "optics" of agreements. He is a "horse trader". Problem was when he was MEC Chair, he took a horse in to trade and came back with a donkey every time, and told the Membership they were better off. He never worked for the betterment of the group and he was a member of the infamous Group of 27 who succeeded in destroying our attempt to correct the folly that was TA1 back in 2011. These are facts.

He was actively working with the Westjet management team during their Mainline negots. They definitely left stuff on the table. If you get any wiff that he is involved as I suspect he is ....be very careful. My opinion only.

[Protonpilot]

From this preliminary data, this AIP has ACPA stink all over it. My bet is a former "infamous" MEC Chair is employed by your management team.

He was a former MEC Chair over at your Mainline's competition, is now retired, and became a "consultant for pilot WACON oppression". He is a master of "moving stuff around" to alter the "optics" of agreements. He is a "horse trader". Problem was when he was MEC Chair, he took a horse in to trade and came back with a donkey every time, and told the Membership they were better off. He never worked for the betterment of the group and he was a member of the infamous Group of 27 who succeeded in destroying our attempt to correct the folly that was TA1 back in 2011. These are facts.

He was actively working with the Westjet management team during their Mainline negots. They definitely left stuff on the table. If you get any wiff that he is involved as I suspect he is ....be very careful. My opinion only.

RippleRock.

Sorry to break it to you.

This is an ALPA deal, negotiated by ALPA elected members with the assistance of ALPA Washington based economic advisors. Maybe a sprinkling of Canada based advisors as well.

You feel the deal falls short, and you're blaming ACPA? A union that doesn't even exist anymore? Every airline LR department has a handful of professional negotiators that want to pay the least possible, that's their mandate. WJ Encore is no different. If KV was at the table as a consultant (haven't heard that and I'm assuming this is just your own hunch here), he wasn't running the show or controlling the purse strings for the corp.

Any other conspiracies involving ACPA you know of? Illuminati? Second shooter on the grassy knoll?

Ridiculous!

[RippleRock]

From this preliminary data, this AIP has ACPA stink all over it. My bet is a former "infamous" MEC Chair is employed by your management team.

He was a former MEC Chair over at your Mainline's competition, is now retired, and became a "consultant for pilot WACON oppression". He is a master of "moving stuff around" to alter the "optics" of agreements. He is a "horse trader". Problem was when he was MEC Chair, he took a horse in to trade and came back with a donkey every time, and told the Membership they were better off. He never worked for the betterment of the group and he was a member of the infamous Group of 27 who succeeded in destroying our attempt to correct the folly that was TA1 back in 2011. These are facts.

He was actively working with the Westjet management team during their Mainline negots. They definitely left stuff on the table. If you get any wiff that he is involved as I suspect he is ....be very careful. My opinion only.

RippleRock.

Sorry to break it to you.

This is an ALPA deal, negotiated by ALPA elected members with the assistance of ALPA Washington based economic advisors. Maybe a sprinkling of Canada based advisors as well.

You feel the deal falls short, and you're blaming ACPA? A union that doesn't even exist anymore? Every airline LR department has a handful of professional negotiators that want to pay the least possible, that's their mandate. WJ Encore is no different. If KV was at the table as a consultant (haven't heard that and I'm assuming this is just your own hunch here), he wasn't running the show or controlling the purse strings for the corp.

Any other conspiracies involving ACPA you know of? Illuminati? Second shooter on the grassy knoll?

Ridiculous!

Let me be crystal clear. --I don't care about your deal--. You guys vote on it, you guys live with it. I'm more bored than anything, so I post on occasion. 40 years in the industry and 26 years dealing with ACPA sharpens one sense of "smell". This industry isn't as big as one thinks.

While it would be nice to see "all boats rise" on the tide of WACON change, yours not rising doesn't affect me at my level. You guys are not even close to a strike deadline and ALPA comes to you guys with a "meh" deal. What gives?

I'm just saying be careful what the Company is offering. He was working for WJ on their offer to your Mainline, and he is likely working on the other side of your table. He is a master of "optics".

I wish you the best. Good luck. Seriously.

[unionism101]

Ripple,

Proton is an AC pilot who loves Jalmer, doesn't believe pilots are getting greencards, thinks we are going to arbitration and was skeptical of ALPA

Apparently he is now skeptical of your skepticism of this deal from ALPA.

In other words...a floater

[twinpratts]

Any word on a timeline for roadshows and vote open / close date yet?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Any word on a timeline for roadshows and vote open / close date yet?

Roadshow to be announced for sometime this coming week. Tentative agreement to be released prior to that road show.

[CaptDukeNukem]

We should make a pool on the turnout percentage and pass/fail. Any bookies on here wanna set the line?

[dontcallmeshirley]

We should make a pool on the turnout percentage and pass/fail. Any bookies on here wanna set the line?

65% yes/35% no
85% turnout

Those above numbers +/- 5%.

[GetAGripen]

Anxious to see the full paperwork, but I don't see this passing. The summary feels like they didn't hit any of the major issues. Pay matching Porter, a non-union airline is embarrassing. Major cutbacks on ESPs to even make that happen. No change in QOL(an extra 2 hours premium pay for working 18+ days, whoopee). Flow-wise I understand there's not much they can do, but c'mon. There are around 150 Encore pilots, about 40% of the total right now that were hired after the PTA cutoff who should feel absolutely shafted right now since they were given nothing in return for that. As is, there's nothing in this contract that will stop Encore bleeding out. It feels like a bluff from management and we need to call it as it is.

[GetAGripen]

Here's the draft. Yeah, it's still bad.

[Flyboy736]

Here's the draft. Yeah, it's still bad.

Thanks for posting it really helps the pilot community compare wages and working conditions. Any comments from Porter/Jazz guys how the lifestyle compares?

Could you explain what under payment timelines means?

What is the overall gain $ wise for this contract? I'm reading 'here save 15 min report time for a check-in at the expense of 200-300 hours of dh credit per year!'
A bit of warning without the pay to stop management expect a lot more (free) dhing around. I spent 3 years beginning and finishing my pairings with a DH in the past it was not fun. Worse example was on reserve DH YYZ to YVR operate to YYJ then double dh home the next day in reverse. I got home to see crew sched called me to do the exact same thing the next day!

[JBI]

Could you explain what under payment timelines means?

I believe what you're referring to is what happens when Crew Pay makes a mistake. If they goof, and you owe them money, they don't take it all off at once. That's happened to me a few times, unfortunately.

A bit of warning without the pay to stop management expect a lot more (free) dhing around. I spent 3 years beginning and finishing my pairings with a DH in the past it was not fun. Worse example was on reserve DH YYZ to YVR operate to YYJ then double dh home the next day in reverse. I got home to see crew sched called me to do the exact same thing the next day!

Pilots will still get paid for the deadhead at a rate of 50% for the deadhead. That number will then be factored into the RIGS calculation for the pairing. The difference is that now that deadhead time will be "in the block". This means that, among other things, the deadhead credit will be included in the monthly scheduling window.

There are pros and cons to this. The positive is that it generally means that Encore pilots will be scheduled for less work in a month. For example, Encore pilots are currenly targeted to be scheduled between 70-90 credit hours per scheduling period. Before, if an Encore pilot had a lot of deadheads, they weren't included in that window. The most extreme example is the deadheads to/from Calgary and Toronto - in theory a pilot could be scheduled 85 hours of flying + a whole bunch more deadheads and that fit the criteria. Now those deadheads will be counted. In addition, Deadheads that happen due to schedule changes and IROPS will now be eligible for overtime, while previously they were not.

The downside is that if pilots are scheduled below their MMG of 75 hours, previously, deadheads were paid on top of that. So, if a pilot had a month where they did not fly a lot, but had a lot of deadheads, they'd actually make more money with the deadheads "outside the block". They would get their MMG pay of 75 hours AND get 50% pay for all their deadheads.

On the 737/787 WestJet does deadheads in the block like proposed in this TA. Generally speaking it does cost the company more money but there are difference circumstances.

[JBI]

Anxious to see the full paperwork, but I don't see this passing. The summary feels like they didn't hit any of the major issues. Pay matching Porter, a non-union airline is embarrassing. Major cutbacks on ESPs to even make that happen. No change in QOL(an extra 2 hours premium pay for working 18+ days, whoopee). Flow-wise I understand there's not much they can do, but c'mon. There are around 150 Encore pilots, about 40% of the total right now that were hired after the PTA cutoff who should feel absolutely shafted right now since they were given nothing in return for that. As is, there's nothing in this contract that will stop Encore bleeding out. It feels like a bluff from management and we need to call it as it is.

As an Encore pilot, you definitely have the right to feel that this is a bluff from Management. All of us who are not at Encore can give opinions, but at the end of the day it's up to the pilots on property to determine what they feel is best. I posted something similar on the Telegram chat, but do want most Encore pilots to understand this point. I'm NOT saying whether you should vote yes or no, just understand the background. I was previously on Encore's NC before flowing in 2022.

An NC/MEC will get a mandate from their pilots through the various surveys they put out prior to the negotiations. The mandate will be broad, but generally speaking, the MEC will have a good idea of what items the pilots want and then task the NC with negotiating for it. If they can't get the mandate and the pilots have authorized them to take job action, then job action is what happens next. As the MEC is putting this TA out to the pilots, it presumably meets the general mandate that the pilots gave them.

Now, as someone who was at Encore for 6+ years and sat at the table for negotiations, there are a few observations:
-WestJet is and will be back operating 737s into YQQ, YKA, YMM, YXS and YQU
-they are also going to start operating 737s into YCD
-Pasco will be operating the Saab 340 into YYF this summer
-One of the main reasons for starting Encore was to help fill the 20 widebodies which our previous, previous, previous CEO said we were getting. As of now, we've stopped at 7 787s.
-They've closed the Toronto base
-The current management team has been involved to a certain extent since 2017 and they've never been able to staff the airline properly.
-The Proposed TA's final MOA is an "In case Encore ceases operation" clause. I've never seen that in a Collective Agreement.
-Our new CEO came from Austrian Airlines where they just recently got rid of all 18 Q400s that they operated. Here's a quote from him after announcing that they were getting rid of their Q400s:

"Over the last decades, we have seen that [flying] regional aircraft is a business that is dying out, at least within Europe. Most successful network carriers [have] got rid of the majority of their small regional aircraft. We think that this is a trend that you can't work against, because the ticket prices came down so much that the unit costs of the small aircraft are just too big."

All this above, to me, says there has been some serious talk about shutting the whole thing down. What are those chances? No idea, but I would say they're higher than 0%.

Maybe it's a bluff. BUT, here's the thing, what would happen if, after going on strike, the Company decided just to shut Encore down? How bad would it look if the NC/MEC (a group of 8-12 volunteers) received an offer that met the mandate their pilots gave them, didn't put it to the pilots and instead decided to strike?

Now, if the pilots decide that they don't like this Tentative Agreement and vote it down, that's completely in their right. And they have then had an opportunity to make their voices known. If it's a bluff by the company, awesome, hopefully after some more negotiations Encore can get a contract that covers what you are hoping for and can actually solve the staffing problems that have plagued Encore. And, if the company wasn't bluffing and it is shut down, at least the pilots had an opportunity to decide for themselves and not have 8-12 volunteers make the decision for them.

The only criticism I'll make of your post above is regarding your comment about the pilots hired after the PTA was cancelled. What exactly do you feel should be given in return for it? As far as a know, everyone hired after the PTA was cancelled knew exactly what they were being hired into. I think the recruiting team was very careful to not make promises they couldn't keep. I fail to see how coming into a situation where the seniority situation is clearly laid out that there is somehow additional items owed to those folks because there are pilots who were hired when the PTA was still in force. If I'm missing something, honestly let me know, I haven't been at Encore since the PTA cancellation.

[digits_]

Maybe it's a bluff. BUT, here's the thing, what would happen if, after going on strike, the Company decided just to shut Encore down? How bad would it look if the NC/MEC (a group of 8-12 volunteers) received an offer that met the mandate their pilots gave them, didn't put it to the pilots and instead decided to strike?

Not bad at all. Most people would understand that that must have been the endgame all along. You don't just shut down a company because an employee group strikes for a bigger raise

Especially in this hiring climate, shutting down due to a strike is an idle threat. Most airline pilots don't want regional airlines to exist either. Their very existence depends on providing cheaper flights than the major airline. It would be much better for pilots if Westjet did all the flights, and Encore didn't exist. If Encore closes, other airlines (likely AC or WJ) will grow. They will need pilots. So yes, please, have them shut down and be taken over by mainline.

If the pilot group is honestly afraid of threats like these in today's job market, they'll never ever see the major improvements people are hoping for. Never.

[JBI]

Maybe it's a bluff. BUT, here's the thing, what would happen if, after going on strike, the Company decided just to shut Encore down? How bad would it look if the NC/MEC (a group of 8-12 volunteers) received an offer that met the mandate their pilots gave them, didn't put it to the pilots and instead decided to strike?

Not bad at all. Most people would understand that that must have been the endgame all along. You don't just shut down a company because an employee group strikes for a bigger raise

Especially in this hiring climate, shutting down due to a strike is an idle threat. Most airline pilots don't want regional airlines to exist either. Their very existence depends on providing cheaper flights than the major airline. It would be much better for pilots if Westjet did all the flights, and Encore didn't exist. If Encore closes, other airlines (likely AC or WJ) will grow. They will need pilots. So yes, please, have them shut down and be taken over by mainline.

If the pilot group is honestly afraid of threats like these in today's job market, they'll never ever see the major improvements people are hoping for. Never.

Read the paragraph again. I didn't say having Encore shut down is a necessarily a bad thing, I said having it shut down after the NC/MEC had an offer that met their mandate but didn't bring it to the pilot group is a bad thing. If the pilot group wants to vote it down, they are more than welcome to. During COVID, there was an outcry when the WJ MEC didn't bring an MOA option to the pilots for a vote and it resulted in significant (but thankfullly short-lived) lay-offs.

You are correct, WJ will need pilots if Encore shuts down. They've done a whole lot of hiring from Jazz recently...

[digits_]

Maybe it's a bluff. BUT, here's the thing, what would happen if, after going on strike, the Company decided just to shut Encore down? How bad would it look if the NC/MEC (a group of 8-12 volunteers) received an offer that met the mandate their pilots gave them, didn't put it to the pilots and instead decided to strike?

Not bad at all. Most people would understand that that must have been the endgame all along. You don't just shut down a company because an employee group strikes for a bigger raise

Especially in this hiring climate, shutting down due to a strike is an idle threat. Most airline pilots don't want regional airlines to exist either. Their very existence depends on providing cheaper flights than the major airline. It would be much better for pilots if Westjet did all the flights, and Encore didn't exist. If Encore closes, other airlines (likely AC or WJ) will grow. They will need pilots. So yes, please, have them shut down and be taken over by mainline.

If the pilot group is honestly afraid of threats like these in today's job market, they'll never ever see the major improvements people are hoping for. Never.

Read the paragraph again. I didn't say having Encore shut down is a necessarily a bad thing, I said having it shut down after the NC/MEC had an offer that met their mandate but didn't bring it to the pilot group is a bad thing. If the pilot group wants to vote it down, they are more than welcome to. During COVID, there was an outcry when the WJ MEC didn't bring an MOA option to the pilots for a vote and it resulted in significant (but thankfullly short-lived) lay-offs.

You are correct, WJ will need pilots if Encore shuts down. They've done a whole lot of hiring from Jazz recently...

Since we don't know what the mandate was/is, I don't think it's very relevant in this case. I don't think the MEC should bring something to vote in a response to a threat they can reasonably consider irrelevant. The mandate is (likely) also a minimum. Nobody will complain if they get more.

If the threat of closing is what made them present the offer, they do the pilot group a disservice.

If they are presenting the offer because they genuinely think it's acceptable, then carry on.

[dontcallmeshirley]

You are correct, WJ will need pilots if Encore shuts down. They've done a whole lot of hiring from Jazz recently...

Funny you say that... the rumour mill known as the Encore pilots chat is that WS will be overstaffed with the WG merger and a layoff is more than possible.

[braaap Braap]

Maybe it's a bluff. BUT, here's the thing, what would happen if, after going on strike, the Company decided just to shut Encore down? How bad would it look if the NC/MEC (a group of 8-12 volunteers) received an offer that met the mandate their pilots gave them, didn't put it to the pilots and instead decided to strike?

Not bad at all. Most people would understand that that must have been the endgame all along. You don't just shut down a company because an employee group strikes for a bigger raise

Especially in this hiring climate, shutting down due to a strike is an idle threat. Most airline pilots don't want regional airlines to exist either. Their very existence depends on providing cheaper flights than the major airline. It would be much better for pilots if Westjet did all the flights, and Encore didn't exist. If Encore closes, other airlines (likely AC or WJ) will grow. They will need pilots. So yes, please, have them shut down and be taken over by mainline.

If the pilot group is honestly afraid of threats like these in today's job market, they'll never ever see the major improvements people are hoping for. Never.

+1 well said! @JBI I get your point of the optics and process the NC may have been following but if they shunted the tough call to their pilot group then that's just bad leadership. As for the rest of your points/context; fear mongering is managements #1 union busting trick. So we don't need to be all boogeyman with quotes from Austria. What are Encore pilots just suppose to accept anything that management offers "otherwise we're shutting this place down" leaving Encore some sort of zombified anchor on the rest of the industry?

[JBI]

Let's back up just a bit. My initial post about the threat of a shutdown was only in response to @getagripen's post. He/she took the position that the MEC should have called the Company's bluff. I took that to mean shutting down, but it is possible that's not what they meant.

From what I can tell, Getagripen is an Encore pilot who has been at Encore just over a year. If I were in their shoes, I'd actually probably feel pretty similar to how they do. I just wanted to caution them on the risks associated with 'calling the company's bluff' as compared to all other recent Contract Negotiations and job action threats - Encore IS in a unique position where I would say the potential of a shutdown is not 0%. But I fully support Encore pilots to vote how they want to vote in this situation.

Now, we got down a little bit of a rabbit hole verses threat of shutdown and other mandates.

Since we don't know what the mandate was/is, I don't think it's very relevant in this case. I don't think the MEC should bring something to vote in a response to a threat they can reasonably consider irrelevant. The mandate is (likely) also a minimum. Nobody will complain if they get more.

If the threat of closing is what made them present the offer, they do the pilot group a disservice.

If they are presenting the offer because they genuinely think it's acceptable, then carry on.

I do not for a moment think that after 8+ months of negotiations this NC/MEC took the first offer the company made, thought "well, they threatened to shut the company down so we better take it" and then put it to the pilots. I'm sure there were a myriad of reasons they felt that this TA was worth putting to the pilots. And while we don't know what their mandate was, it is entirely relevant in this case. Kind of the basics/foundation of the ALPA representation model.

+1 well said! @JBI I get your point of the optics and process the NC may have been following but if they shunted the tough call to their pilot group then that's just bad leadership. As for the rest of your points/context; fear mongering is managements #1 union busting trick. So we don't need to be all boogeyman with quotes from Austria. What are Encore pilots just suppose to accept anything that management offers "otherwise we're shutting this place down" leaving Encore some sort of zombified anchor on the rest of the industry?

Speaking of the foundation of the representation model, and perhaps I could have explained it better, this has little to do with optics and everything to do with a union volunteer's obligation and responsibilities to their pilot group. They are NOT CEOs. They are elected/appointed volunteers to their pilots who give them a mandate. Taking all factors into consideration, negotiating the best that they can and meeting the mandate, they are obligated to then let the pilots whom they represent decide. They are not being bad leaders, they are actually doing exactly what they are legally required to do when representing their pilots. If union leaders didn't follow the directions/mandate of their members they can face a Duty of Fair Representation suit.

Again, let's get back out of the "shutting down Encore" rabbit hole. The "boogeyman" quotes were less about what I think Management may or may not have threatened, but rather the reality of the situation at Encore and factors for Encore pilots to consider. Again, if pilots think that the Company is bluffing, I'm all for them voting no.

[ShillBill]

Holy Fck JBI

If you were actually on a negotiating committee, then alarm bells should be ringing across the pilots of Canada

1) no pilot deal should ever include 50% deadhead pay ever again. What an abomination to this industry that you show up to work and not get paid 100% to do what the company wants you to do. Hory fuk batman

2) your pussy ass concern that Encore is going to shutdown unless they take some bullshit deal. This is union busting 101. My 12 years old could figure this one.

We are in a pilot shortage climate with no relief in site and yet we need to worry about pilot surplus. How fking dumb are pilots. Like seriously think about this one. This is 200% a bluff and if you can't see it then you are:

a) retarded
b) actually don't value your skills

JBI plz tell me you're not one of those dumb fks who who posts dumb ass shit on social media of you flying planes as an under paid Canadian pilot to try and get likes. Please tell me you're not that fukkng dumb...plz