Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[PostmasterGeneral]

285 were supposed to flow in 2022 that didn’t. There is another grievance filed for the 2023 missed hiring.

"Supposed to?" How do you determine which of the next 285 pilots were "supposed" to be hired?

This entire argument is full of holes.

It’s not an argument. It’s a violation of a contractual hiring agreement. Your comments and tone make you come across as having something against Jazz pilots getting a resolution to said violations?

Not against a resolution whatsoever. I just think that expectations need to be grounded in reality.

[Nick678]

"Supposed to?" How do you determine which of the next 285 pilots were "supposed" to be hired?

This entire argument is full of holes.

It’s not an argument. It’s a violation of a contractual hiring agreement. Your comments and tone make you come across as having something against Jazz pilots getting a resolution to said violations?

Not against a resolution whatsoever. I just think that expectations need to be grounded in reality.

You had to get hired at AC to be included in the 295, this month they will determine who and what a fair resolution will be.

[a2btrail]

So just to make sense of all this....

I have a total of 5 friends that applied to AC and got hired from Jazz in 2022. 2 flowed in Sept, 1 in October and the last 2 mid November.

Just to confirm....they are not part of the 285? and they are all ineligible for a potential settlement if proven in favour... even thought they applied and was hired by AC in 22?

[Nick678]

So just to make sense of all this....

I have a total of 5 friends that applied to AC and got hired from Jazz in 2022. 2 flowed in Sept, 1 in October and the last 2 mid November.

Just to confirm....they are not part of the 285? and they are all ineligible for a potential settlement if proven in favour... even thought they applied and was hired by AC in 22?

You are correct, the 295 were supposed to be hire in 2022 but were not. If you were hired at AC in 2022 from jazz then yay for you. That’s contract compliance.

[a2btrail]

Got it, thanks! Typo *though*

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

I am part of the the 295 and as of the last bid at AC that's enough of a difference for me to be able to hold left seat 320 YYZ had I been hired in order if they met the contract obligations. That's a monumental difference in money and lifestyle from YR1 flat pay.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I am part of the the 295 and as of the last bid at AC that's enough of a difference for me to be able to hold left seat 320 YYZ had I been hired in order if they met the contract obligations. That's a monumental difference in money and lifestyle from YR1 flat pay.

That’s why they’re gonna have to put some big bucks on this! ( also part of that 295 pilots )

[Jfthepilot]

I am part of the the 295 and as of the last bid at AC that's enough of a difference for me to be able to hold left seat 320 YYZ had I been hired in order if they met the contract obligations. That's a monumental difference in money and lifestyle from YR1 flat pay.

That’s why they’re gonna have to put some big bucks on this! ( also part of that 295 pilots )

Again, this can’t be just a lump sum. Seniority has to be restored to those affected. This will impact vacations, schedules, upgrades, quality of life, all of which can’t be simplified with an amount of cash.

What I can see happening is whoever else was affected negatively by that can get a lump sum, like the Jazz lifers who lost value in the contract, or the Transat/Sunwing/WJ/Porter/etc pilots who were hired starting Jan 1st , 2023.

[Mountainwave]

Any idea when the last Jazz pilot affected (of the 285ish) was hired at AC?

[Fanblade]

Again, this can’t be just a lump sum. Seniority has to be restored to those affected. This will impact vacations, schedules, upgrades, quality of life, all of which can’t be simplified with an amount of cash.

Seniority fights have a way of creating division and are a threat to the entire group over time. Please be careful with this divisive subject matter.

Don’t get me wrong. I fully support the Jazz pilots seeking restitution for what has happened. However you have to remain grounded in your expectations. The AC seniority list is a contractual obligation between AC and its pilots. It can’t be infringed upon by an outside contractual grievance. Back in the early days of the first PML I was an advocate of the AC pilots putting an LOU into our CBA to make certain AC had to live up to its flow obligations. Why? Because you can’t trust AC. There is no direct link contractually between the Jazz pilot CBA and AC. The Jazz pilot contract is with Jazz. Jazz has a contract with AC.

The only entity that you will likely get restitution from is Jazz. Jazz may then seek restitution from AC. Again I fully support restitution. What we don’t need is a divisive seniority fight that has no real legs in the first place.

History tells me it is not if seniority will kick you in the nuts at some point. It’s just a matter of when. The industry is rife with it. May I suggest you go to a Local rep and get a proper briefing on probable outcomes.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I am part of the the 295 and as of the last bid at AC that's enough of a difference for me to be able to hold left seat 320 YYZ had I been hired in order if they met the contract obligations. That's a monumental difference in money and lifestyle from YR1 flat pay.

But there's no way to quantify that, especially in any sort of arbitration. Just because you "can" hold something, doesn't mean anyone will bid it. Plenty of pilots choose lifestyle, and that's why you see the NB captain seats go so junior, especially in YYZ. Are you seriously expecting a resolution like that to come of this?

[Nick678]

I am part of the the 295 and as of the last bid at AC that's enough of a difference for me to be able to hold left seat 320 YYZ had I been hired in order if they met the contract obligations. That's a monumental difference in money and lifestyle from YR1 flat pay.

But there's no way to quantify that, especially in any sort of arbitration. Just because you "can" hold something, doesn't mean anyone will bid it. Plenty of pilots choose lifestyle, and that's why you see the NB captain seats go so junior, especially in YYZ. Are you seriously expecting a resolution like that to come of this?

I am part of the the 295 and as of the last bid at AC that's enough of a difference for me to be able to hold left seat 320 YYZ had I been hired in order if they met the contract obligations. That's a monumental difference in money and lifestyle from YR1 flat pay.

But there's no way to quantify that, especially in any sort of arbitration. Just because you "can" hold something, doesn't mean anyone will bid it. Plenty of pilots choose lifestyle, and that's why you see the NB captain seats go so junior, especially in YYZ. Are you seriously expecting a resolution like that to come of this?

Thats kinda the running theme here. Nobody knows how to quantify the loss. Arbitrators are supposed to find a resolution that is "fair' and "reasonable" and they have to the power to reward a seniority solution if they so choose. Whether or not that will happen is up for debate.

Jazz pilots got hit with plenty of seniority mergers from Sky to Georgian its always messy and pisses lots of pilots off when it happens. But time moves on.

[PostmasterGeneral]

That' is incorrect. They do not have the power to award or modify seniority at Air Canada.

[rudder]

Arbitrators are supposed to find a resolution that is "fair' and "reasonable" and they have to the power to reward a seniority solution if they so choose. Whether or not that will happen is up for debate.

Jazz pilots got hit with plenty of seniority mergers from Sky to Georgian its always messy and pisses lots of pilots off when it happens. But time moves on.

No, the terms of reference of an arbitrator adjudicating a grievance related to the Jazz CBA cannot issue an award involving third parties. However, the arbitrator can order the company to follow the terms of the CBA. And if that means enforcement through language contained in the CPA, that could be a possibility. However, none of this will see a reordering of the AC pilot seniority list.

The ULP naming both Jazz and AC is related to the circumstances associated with the mid-term LOU resetting the Jazz pay scales. Therefore it will also not result in any reordering of the AC pilot seniority list.

Basically, there is nothing on the horizon that will see a reordering of the AC pilot seniority list. The AC Pilot CBA even precludes seniority integration if AC reacquires Jazz (the employer cannot support a common employer petition).

Setting realistic expectations is critical.

[Man_in_the_sky]

[jazzsucks]

Arbitrators are supposed to find a resolution that is "fair' and "reasonable" and they have to the power to reward a seniority solution if they so choose. Whether or not that will happen is up for debate.

Jazz pilots got hit with plenty of seniority mergers from Sky to Georgian its always messy and pisses lots of pilots off when it happens. But time moves on.

No, the terms of reference of an arbitrator adjudicating a grievance related to the Jazz CBA cannot issue an award involving third parties. However, the arbitrator can order the company to follow the terms of the CBA. And if that means enforcement through language contained in the CPA, that could be a possibility. However, none of this will see a reordering of the AC pilot seniority list.

The ULP naming both Jazz and AC is related to the circumstances associated with the mid-term LOU resetting the Jazz pay scales. Therefore it will also not result in any reordering of the AC pilot seniority list.

Basically, there is nothing on the horizon that will see a reordering of the AC pilot seniority list. The AC Pilot CBA even precludes seniority integration if AC reacquires Jazz (the employer cannot support a common employer petition).

Setting realistic expectations is critical.

Twas a wait to hear back from jazz but I spoke to both unions and both say it is technically possible but chances are remote. The CIRB gave me a run around and didn't answer. (not related to this situation but in general)

[Man_in_the_sky]

Anyone got info as when the next hearing will be. ?

[pipedream?]

August from what our Mec has told us.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Can you clarify what “our” mec is? ( jza / ac )?

Cause all 285 should be at mainline by
Now, but the grievance is from jazz alpa

[pipedream?]

Can you clarify what “our” mec is? ( jza / ac )?

Cause all 285 should be at mainline by
Now, but the grievance is from jazz alpa

Yes the Jazz mec. The 285 is from missed hiring in 2022. There is another grievance for the missed hiring in 2023.

[Jfthepilot]

Next case management is now scheduled for November as per JAZ MEC (delayed due to AC negotiations).

[crystalpizza]

Next case management is now scheduled for November as per JAZ MEC (delayed due to AC negotiations).

How many more of these will there be? Wasn’t there already a case management conference in April?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Delay tactics. Most who were affected already gone to AC, or elsewhere. Nothing will come to fruition. I doubt jazz will pay out pilots who are no longer on property. This whole thing is a waste of time in my opinion. What can be learnt here is how AC and jazz run their operation.

[Inverted2]

Delay tactics. Most who were affected already gone to AC, or elsewhere. Nothing will come to fruition. I doubt jazz will pay out pilots who are no longer on property. This whole thing is a waste of time in my opinion. What can be learnt here is how AC and jazz run their operation.

Unfortunately this is all true. They should be focusing on the PAL CPA grievance.

[flyingcanuck]

Delay tactics. Most who were affected already gone to AC, or elsewhere. Nothing will come to fruition. I doubt jazz will pay out pilots who are no longer on property. This whole thing is a waste of time in my opinion. What can be learnt here is how AC and jazz run their operation.

i wouldnt necessarily call it pointless, it might help those in the future when AC pulls the same stunt