raccoons unionize

[LAteNightDash]

Is there a private group for porter pilots anywhere? Whatsapp, FB etc??

[dontcallmeshirley]

Is this a thing? It seems that unionization has it's benefits, but it also has some pretty major drawbacks.

[digits_]

Is this a thing? It seems that unionization has it's benefits, but it also has some pretty major drawbacks.

What major drawbacks would there be at a company the size of Porter?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Is this a thing? It seems that unionization has it's benefits, but it also has some pretty major drawbacks.

What major drawbacks would there be at a company the size of Porter?

An non-unionized company can increase pay to match the industry as new agreements come into play at other airlines. In a union, any changes must be negotiated with and approved by the MEC. As a result, you can expect a you-vs-me atmosphere to develop.

It's not that unionization is bad... it's a trade-off that needs to be thought out before making the jump.

[JustaCanadian]

Look no further than ACPA to see potential downside of unions. You can pay a percentage of your income to a group of people who actively make your working life worse.

Unions, Government, Corporations = Power corrupts.

Yes it's dystopian, but we have all seen the playbooks. Rinse and repeat.

[braaap Braap]

Look no further than ACPA to see potential downside of unions. You can pay a percentage of your income to a group of people who actively make your working life worse.

Unions, Government, Corporations = Power corrupts.

Yes it's dystopian, but we have all seen the playbooks. Rinse and repeat.

Oh Ok so lets just remain subject to what Porter the Corporation decides is best for us then. That will surely work out better for us. At least we'll save our less than 2%

[TPP]

Bad unions exist, ACPA is a good example of it.

But ACs new ALPA union is fighting for 1200 amendments to its wording and work rules. That's something the FOAG can't do due to lack of manpower and having zero power to hold executives accountable.

The FOAG are an amazing group of volunteers doing the absolute best they can. But the best they can has zero teeth as we as a group do not have the power to do two fundamental things union's can do.

Say no to an offer with a vote and make both sides come back to the table and keep negotiating a better deal.

Strike if executives are unreasonable in negotiations.

There is a reason why corporations hire multi million dollar consultants to fight union drives. It's because they know overall that they will have to give up more through a collective bargaining unit, and can't just degrade work rules via bulletin like Porter does now.

[fish4life]

Bad unions exist, ACPA is a good example of it.

But ACs new ALPA union is fighting for 1200 amendments to its wording and work rules. That's something the FOAG can't do due to lack of manpower and having zero power to hold executives accountable.

The FOAG are an amazing group of volunteers doing the absolute best they can. But the best they can has zero teeth as we as a group do not have the power to do two fundamental things union's can do.

Say no to an offer with a vote and make both sides come back to the table and keep negotiating a better deal.

Strike if executives are unreasonable in negotiations.

There is a reason why corporations hire multi million dollar consultants to fight union drives. It's because they know overall that they will have to give up more through a collective bargaining unit, and can't just degrade work rules via bulletin like Porter does now.

Also they MOST important part of any contract SCOPE.

[JustaCanadian]

Look no further than ACPA to see potential downside of unions. You can pay a percentage of your income to a group of people who actively make your working life worse.

Unions, Government, Corporations = Power corrupts.

Yes it's dystopian, but we have all seen the playbooks. Rinse and repeat.

Oh Ok so lets just remain subject to what Porter the Corporation decides is best for us then. That will surely work out better for us. At least we'll save our less than 2%

ACPA didn't just take its two percent silly.

They had shills on the inside over the years who worked to convince all the pilots they were always worth less and to vote for contracts that favor the corporation.

ACPA, government and the corporation all had a hand in that of course. The corporation that's the expectation though, while government is supposed to work for the people but do we really expect that? Government corruption is blatant... Another billion dollar hand out to Honda so they can build more shit for us and sell it for huge profit? Does anyone trust government? So then you are left with union, the last one you might trust after you lost faith in the corporation and your government long ago.

ACPA didn't cost pilots 2 percent a year. The data seems pretty clear it's about 20x that and they dragged the rest of Canadian pilots down with them. To the magnitude of billions I would say.

If I'm wrong about that why are Air Canada pilots saying they should see gains in the ballpark 40-100 percent to keep up with the industry? Why are they pulling 20 years of data saying how far behind they are?

Who do you blame? ACPA? Gov? The corporation?

[VFS]

Is this a thing? It seems that unionization has it's benefits, but it also has some pretty major drawbacks.

What major drawbacks would there be at a company the size of Porter?

An non-unionized company can increase pay to match the industry as new agreements come into play at other airlines. In a union, any changes must be negotiated with and approved by the MEC. As a result, you can expect a you-vs-me atmosphere to develop.

It's not that unionization is bad... it's a trade-off that needs to be thought out before making the jump.

That’s the biggest load of BS executives like to spew to trick employees into thinking unions are a bad thing.

If management came to a union and said “we want to release an amendment to the contract with higher pay scales to help with hiring/retention”. Do you honestly think any union would say no?? F**k no, it would take them about an hour to get something in writing and all the details worked out. The only difference is, when hiring and retention was no longer an issue the management of a unionized company would have a much more difficult time claw those increases back.

[flyinhigh]

An non-unionized company can increase pay to match the industry as new agreements come into play at other airlines. In a union, any changes must be negotiated with and approved by the MEC. As a result, you can expect a you-vs-me atmosphere to develop.

It's not that unionization is bad... it's a trade-off that needs to be thought out before making the jump.

Biggest load of BS right there that companies spew in the hope you'll bite, and seems you have.

Absolutely agreements can be amended on the fly. Look at Flair, Jazz, and Inuit which were all amended pre-expiration with an LOU. You can also use an LOA, or MOU. If the company comes and says heres and X-percent raise, I can guarantee it won't go to a vote. If it comes with strings attached, than you WILL get a vote. Thats the beauty of CLC agreement, the company cannot just make hay by copy / paste of the old ACPA agreement (yes that is happeing).

[Bede]

An non-unionized company can increase pay to match the industry as new agreements come into play at other airlines. In a union, any changes must be negotiated with and approved by the MEC. As a result, you can expect a you-vs-me atmosphere to develop.

So this argument is exactly why a union is necessary.
1) If management just increases pay to "match the industry" none of us will get any gains. ALPA is attempting to pattern bargain in Canada. WJ got a better CA than AC. Now AC will raise the bar, after that... and eventually it will be WestJet's turn again.
2) Yes changes need to be negotiated. Otherwise, management will just make small piecemeal changes to placate 51% of the group. Union negotiators are there to solve problems. Management has a problem and the union will devise solutions and tell management the cost of the solution. What the union doesn't (or shouldn't do) is make cheap band-aid solutions for complex problems.

[dontcallmeshirley]

That’s the biggest load of BS executives like to spew to trick employees into thinking unions are a bad thing.

If management came to a union and said “we want to release an amendment to the contract with higher pay scales to help with hiring/retention”. Do you honestly think any union would say no?? F**k no, it would take them about an hour to get something in writing and all the details worked out. The only difference is, when hiring and retention was no longer an issue the management of a unionized company would have a much more difficult time claw those increases back.

Biggest load of BS right there that companies spew in the hope you'll bite, and seems you have.

Absolutely agreements can be amended on the fly. Look at Flair, Jazz, and Inuit which were all amended pre-expiration with an LOU. You can also use an LOA, or MOU. If the company comes and says heres and X-percent raise, I can guarantee it won't go to a vote. If it comes with strings attached, than you WILL get a vote. Thats the beauty of CLC agreement, the company cannot just make hay by copy / paste of the old ACPA agreement (yes that is happeing).

Same language. Same idea. Same belief that I am a company man.

Take a look at the Encore forum or ask an Encore friend. You asked what the downsides to a union are and I showed you an example.

[flyinhigh]

That’s the biggest load of BS executives like to spew to trick employees into thinking unions are a bad thing.

If management came to a union and said “we want to release an amendment to the contract with higher pay scales to help with hiring/retention”. Do you honestly think any union would say no?? F**k no, it would take them about an hour to get something in writing and all the details worked out. The only difference is, when hiring and retention was no longer an issue the management of a unionized company would have a much more difficult time claw those increases back.

Biggest load of BS right there that companies spew in the hope you'll bite, and seems you have.

Absolutely agreements can be amended on the fly. Look at Flair, Jazz, and Inuit which were all amended pre-expiration with an LOU. You can also use an LOA, or MOU. If the company comes and says heres and X-percent raise, I can guarantee it won't go to a vote. If it comes with strings attached, than you WILL get a vote. Thats the beauty of CLC agreement, the company cannot just make hay by copy / paste of the old ACPA agreement (yes that is happeing).

Same language. Same idea. Same belief that I am a company man.

Take a look at the Encore forum or ask an Encore friend. You asked what the downsides to a union are and I showed you an example.

An example of HOW the process work, thanks. The Encore TA is GOING TO VOTE for the pilot group to decide, end of story. If the Negots team met the mandate they were given, then that is the reason this came forward. Not for one individual to decide. If the mandate was not met, or has changed the pilot VOTE will send it back.

Thats not a downside, thats the best outcome possible. The worst outcome is our current process where AG keeps copy and pasting from that gawd awful ACPA (as already indicated) contract over to use with ZERO say.

[dontcallmeshirley]

An example of HOW the process work, thanks. The Encore TA is GOING TO VOTE for the pilot group to decide, end of story. If the Negots team met the mandate they were given, then that is the reason this came forward. Not for one individual to decide. If the mandate was not met, or has changed the pilot VOTE will send it back.

Thats not a downside, thats the best outcome possible. The worst outcome is our current process where AG keeps copy and pasting from that gawd awful ACPA (as already indicated) contract over to use with ZERO say.

Are you an Encore pilot? I appreciate that you can see the upside, but the sentiment being shared at Encore is that, while the mandate was apparently met, the pilot group's desires were missed.

[digits_]

An example of HOW the process work, thanks. The Encore TA is GOING TO VOTE for the pilot group to decide, end of story. If the Negots team met the mandate they were given, then that is the reason this came forward. Not for one individual to decide. If the mandate was not met, or has changed the pilot VOTE will send it back.

Thats not a downside, thats the best outcome possible. The worst outcome is our current process where AG keeps copy and pasting from that gawd awful ACPA (as already indicated) contract over to use with ZERO say.

Are you an Encore pilot? I appreciate that you can see the upside, but the sentiment being shared at Encore is that, while the mandate was apparently met, the pilot group's desires were missed.

Then vote NO?

How would this situation be better if there was no union?

[dontcallmeshirley]

How would this situation be better if there was no union?

I will quote my comment that spurred this. Encore was offered a few good items before CA2 negotiations started. The WENMEC turned them down and lost them.

An non-unionized company can increase pay to match the industry as new agreements come into play at other airlines. In a union, any changes must be negotiated with and approved by the MEC. As a result, you can expect a you-vs-me atmosphere to develop.

It's not that unionization is bad... it's a trade-off that needs to be thought out before making the jump.

[CFM Symphony]

An non-unionized company can increase pay to match the industry as new agreements come into play at other airlines. In a union, any changes must be negotiated with and approved by the MEC. As a result, you can expect a you-vs-me atmosphere to develop.

So this argument is exactly why a union is necessary.
1) If management just increases pay to "match the industry" none of us will get any gains. ALPA is attempting to pattern bargain in Canada. WJ got a better CA than AC. Now AC will raise the bar, after that... and eventually it will be WestJet's turn again.
2) Yes changes need to be negotiated. Otherwise, management will just make small piecemeal changes to placate 51% of the group. Union negotiators are there to solve problems. Management has a problem and the union will devise solutions and tell management the cost of the solution. What the union doesn't (or shouldn't do) is make cheap band-aid solutions for complex problems.

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft. This would have occurred even if all other airlines were non unionized. It's not so much unionized pilots, as much as it's demand for pilots itself that is driving the current increases in salaries throughout the industry. Can you honestly say that the gains in salaries seen over the last few years would have occurred had there been a surplus, or even a stable supply of pilots? History would not support that. Take the two decades post 9/11 as an example. Unions do lots of good things, but they come at a cost, which typically is very worthwhile for a few but generally outweighs the benefits for the group as a whole.

[braaap Braap]

Look no further than ACPA to see potential downside of unions. You can pay a percentage of your income to a group of people who actively make your working life worse.

Unions, Government, Corporations = Power corrupts.

Yes it's dystopian, but we have all seen the playbooks. Rinse and repeat.

Oh Ok so lets just remain subject to what Porter the Corporation decides is best for us then. That will surely work out better for us. At least we'll save our less than 2%

ACPA didn't just take its two percent silly.

They had shills on the inside over the years who worked to convince all the pilots they were always worth less and to vote for contracts that favor the corporation.

ACPA, government and the corporation all had a hand in that of course. The corporation that's the expectation though, while government is supposed to work for the people but do we really expect that? Government corruption is blatant... Another billion dollar hand out to Honda so they can build more shit for us and sell it for huge profit? Does anyone trust government? So then you are left with union, the last one you might trust after you lost faith in the corporation and your government long ago.

ACPA didn't cost pilots 2 percent a year. The data seems pretty clear it's about 20x that and they dragged the rest of Canadian pilots down with them. To the magnitude of billions I would say.

If I'm wrong about that why are Air Canada pilots saying they should see gains in the ballpark 40-100 percent to keep up with the industry? Why are they pulling 20 years of data saying how far behind they are?

Who do you blame? ACPA? Gov? The corporation?

Sorry I misinterpreted your comment. Yes I agree ACPA was a brutal example of representation. I thought your comment was arguing that Porter should remain non unionized because the 3 options are corrupt. But in remaining non-unionized you're subject to the same flavours of corruption just from the corporate overlords.

I recognize unions are not all sunshine and roses and the history books are full of examples of misrepresentation, collusion, intimidation tactics, etc. But the principles of organized labour is what gives the working class any shroud of hope in pushing back against the wealthy class that just keeps taking and taking while the middle class falls farther and farther behind.

[Bede]

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft.

And what did they do to the working conditions?

[TPP]

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft.

And what did they do to the working conditions?

Change them as they please with zero repercussions.

In the last few months Porters management has brought in the worst reserve rules of any major carrier.

If you're on a 2 day pairing as a reserve pilot, you can be extended as long as you have reserve days post pairing.

We consistently now get pilots extended into day 3,4,5 or 6 without being able to go home and get fresh clothes or remember how their family looks like.

[cdnavater]

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft.

And what did they do to the working conditions?

Change them as they please with zero repercussions.

In the last few months Porters management has brought in the worst reserve rules of any major career.

If you're on a 2 day pairing as a reserve pilot, you can be extended as long as you have reserve days post pairing.

We consistently now get pilots extended into day 3,4,5 or 6 without being able to go home and get fresh clothes or remember how their family looks like.

Wow, that’s insane!

[cjp]

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft.

And what did they do to the working conditions?

Change them as they please with zero repercussions.

In the last few months Porters management has brought in the worst reserve rules of any major carrier.

If you're on a 2 day pairing as a reserve pilot, you can be extended as long as you have reserve days post pairing.

We consistently now get pilots extended into day 3,4,5 or 6 without being able to go home and get fresh clothes or remember how their family looks like.

I'm guessing this is happening more frequently due to the amount of open time available and lack of interest / availability from the pilot group.

The schedule has been a little chaotic recently - great for those with no lives or family. Not so pleasant for those looking for a little more balance.

[CFM Symphony]

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft.

And what did they do to the working conditions?

I don't know, but it's also irrelevant since I was responding to your argument which was entirely predicated on pay, and pay is a much more objective measure than "working conditions."

[Bede]

Regarding point 1), your argument is not valid because your implicit assumption that management will NOT increase pay to match industry is not true. Case in point, Porter increased pay to match what they felt was the industry standard for that type of aircraft.

And what did they do to the working conditions?

I don't know, but it's also irrelevant since I was responding to your argument which was entirely predicated on pay, and pay is a much more objective measure than "working conditions."

No it's not. Working conditions are quantified during contract negotiations. Everything in a CA gets quantified - rest times, hotels. Everything.