Tentative Agreement 2

[GetAGripen]

92% turnout, 53% voted NO.

Not the best results, but the struggle will continue..

EDIT: May 29th, Encore MEC gave a 72 hour strike notice.
May 30th, MEC reached a second TA.
EDIT2:

Vote concluded June 14th.

TA2 passed with 79% voting yes, 91% participation.

[dontcallmeshirley]

92% turnout, 53% voted NO.

Not the best results, but the struggle will continue..

The president is "very disappointed" that his "industry leading" offer was shot down as per his professionally questionable email to the pilot and his second one to all employees.

It's time that management listen to the pilot group instead of assuming that they know what we want.

[goingnowherefast]

"Industry leading", that's some weird choice of words. Pay increased to match the 2nd lowest paid Q400 pilots in the country. Maybe he meant leading the bottom of the Industry, but even then, the TA tied the bottom.

[boeingboy]

Good for them. They should be standing up for themselves instead of just voting in the first offer that came along to them.
It would have sent a stronger message if more of them stuck together.....but the message was still sent.

I hope the mechanics do the same. If it's not what you wanted - send them back to the table.

[dontcallmeshirley]

"Industry leading", that's some weird choice of words. Pay increased to match the 2nd lowest paid Q400 pilots in the country. Maybe he meant leading the bottom of the Industry, but even then, the TA tied the bottom.

When the president of your company feels the need to send an email that says how "very disappointed" he is to the pilots, and then another to the rest of the employees in the company with fighting words, you know that you've got him by the balls.

[digits_]

That was close. Go Encore pilots!

And now I really want to read the president's email

[Transition9er2]

Congratulations to the entire Encore pilot group for standing up and recognizing your worth!

This was a BS deal, I have no skin in this game but it’s clear to see this was a BS deal. Some fancy accounting magic by the company to make it seem like an “industry leading” contract, when in fact it’s nothing more than the company yet again using fancy language to get dumb pilots to fall for it.

The entire aviation community is watching and cheering you on!

Now is not the time to settle!

[cdnavater]

Congratulations to the entire Encore pilot group for standing up and recognizing your worth!

This was a BS deal, I have no skin in this game but it’s clear to see this was a BS deal. Some fancy accounting magic by the company to make it seem like an “industry leading” contract, when in fact it’s nothing more than the company yet again using fancy language to get dumb pilots to fall for it.

The entire aviation community is watching and cheering you on!

Now is not the time to settle!

To be clear, 53% of the pilots who voted said no, the other 47% thought it was good enough, 8% couldn’t even be bothered.
That’s not a strong enough no to get any real changes, there will be a couple tweaks, a few threats and another vote, which will produce a 53% yes.

[dumpsterfire]

Why is the Encore MEC presenting dumpsterfire TAs?

Questionable process at best

[QKZXKV]

Congratulations to the entire Encore pilot group for standing up and recognizing your worth!

This was a BS deal, I have no skin in this game but it’s clear to see this was a BS deal. Some fancy accounting magic by the company to make it seem like an “industry leading” contract, when in fact it’s nothing more than the company yet again using fancy language to get dumb pilots to fall for it.

The entire aviation community is watching and cheering you on!

Now is not the time to settle!

To be clear, 53% of the pilots who voted said no, the other 47% thought it was good enough, 8% couldn’t even be bothered.
That’s not a strong enough no to get any real changes, there will be a couple tweaks, a few threats and another vote, which will produce a 53% yes.

I do agree with you on this one.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Why is the Encore MEC presenting dumpsterfire TAs?

Questionable process at best

Are you claiming that you wrote it?

[PittBoss]

Kudos to everyone who voted NO.

It's time where all pilots unite to show the real worth and value.

[Tolip]

Congratulations to the entire Encore pilot group for standing up and recognizing your worth!

This was a BS deal, I have no skin in this game but it’s clear to see this was a BS deal. Some fancy accounting magic by the company to make it seem like an “industry leading” contract, when in fact it’s nothing more than the company yet again using fancy language to get dumb pilots to fall for it.

The entire aviation community is watching and cheering you on!

Now is not the time to settle!

To be clear, 53% of the pilots who voted said no, the other 47% thought it was good enough, 8% couldn’t even be bothered.
That’s not a strong enough no to get any real changes, there will be a couple tweaks, a few threats and another vote, which will produce a 53% yes.

That is deffinitly where the company's heads will be at, they will be thinking how do we make the smallest change to sway exactly 4% of tbe vote to get a pass. However, i dont believe this will work.

It has been made clear that tbe process going forward from here will be a slow one. Leading to a delay lf likly 3 months to even perhaps end of year. If tbe company and the union thinks they can delay this process another half year just to then present the group with what is essentially the exact same TA with one or two minor tweaks. I dont think it will pass, people will be more frustrated by that then anything, and likly more prone to voting no. The next TA needs a complete restructor of flow and flow terms. And our WSP to either be switched back to how it was or put inline with tbe otber unionized groups.
Also, if during the time of these negotiations one of tbe regional players increases wages. Then we will have more ammo to agrue to increase our wages too.

[planenuts]

Also, if during the time of these negotiations one of tbe regional players increases wages. Then we will have more ammo to agrue to increase our wages too.

What do you mean if others raise wages we can too???? - You should be arguing for that now!

The company just pulled the same crap on us....raised wages to meet the next lowest competitor (more or less) and they are up for a new contract next year. God forbid they offer something more than the next lowest. This and other issues we don't like is why there is a better than average chance we will vote no as well.

[Tolip]

Also, if during the time of these negotiations one of tbe regional players increases wages. Then we will have more ammo to agrue to increase our wages too.

What do you mean if others raise wages we can too???? - You should be arguing for that now!

The company just pulled the same crap on us....raised wages to meet the next lowest competitor (more or less) and they are up for a new contract next year. God forbid they offer something more than the next lowest. This and other issues we don't like is why there is a better than average chance we will vote no as well.

I cant say i have a perfect read out of what every pilot liked or didnt like about about this TA, or what was the core reasons it was voted down. So i can only say what i feel, and speak on what ive herd co workers say about it.

And yea, the pay scales in our TA are only industry standard. They are deffinilty not on the cutting edge; just standard. However even with that, i havnt herd anyone complaining about that.

Id say the biggest issues are returning our WSP to where it was or standardize it with otber WJ groups (which in a way is another 5-10% raise). So that is one way of looking at it. On this current TA it reduces WSP from 10% year one to 4%.

The other thing is to figure out how to fix the structural issues at encore that are leading to extremely poor staffing levels and poor moral (people feeling trapped at encore with no hope of moving onto WJ mainine) this is i think the biggest issue. And the most complicated to fix. As it stands right now tbe company wants zero flow to mainline for 2 years. But settled to flow around 24 people by the end of 2025 (24 people is basically zero movment) that, simply is unacceptable. We have to think long and hard on this and the conpany needs to figure something out here. Because the flow program that was proposed will deffinitly lead to the end of encore

[planenuts]

Also, if during the time of these negotiations one of tbe regional players increases wages. Then we will have more ammo to agrue to increase our wages too.

What do you mean if others raise wages we can too???? - You should be arguing for that now!

The company just pulled the same crap on us....raised wages to meet the next lowest competitor (more or less) and they are up for a new contract next year. God forbid they offer something more than the next lowest. This and other issues we don't like is why there is a better than average chance we will vote no as well.

I cant say i have a perfect read out of what every pilot liked or didnt like about about this TA, or what was the core reasons it was voted down. So i can only say what i feel, and speak on what ive herd co workers say about it.

And yea, the pay scales in our TA are only industry standard. They are deffinilty not on the cutting edge; just standard. However even with that, i havnt herd anyone complaining about that.

Id say the biggest issues are returning our WSP to where it was or standardize it with otber WJ groups (which in a way is another 5-10% raise). So that is one way of looking at it. On this current TA it reduces WSP from 10% year one to 4%.

The other thing is to figure out how to fix the structural issues at encore that are leading to extremely poor staffing levels and poor moral (people feeling trapped at encore with no hope of moving onto WJ mainine) this is i think the biggest issue. And the most complicated to fix. As it stands right now tbe company wants zero flow to mainline for 2 years. But settled to flow around 24 people by the end of 2025 (24 people is basically zero movment) that, simply is unacceptable. We have to think long and hard on this and the conpany needs to figure something out here. Because the flow program that was proposed will deffinitly lead to the end of encore

If thats what you guys are happy with then good for you. Certainly there are other issues it sounds like.

However - one thing I wish everyone would take a stand against is the company considering the WSP as part of ones wages. It's certainly a nice bonus or perk - but it's also a gimmick designed for the companies advantage.

It should NEVER be used as an excuse for sub-par wages.

[RippleRock]

47% Yes is not a resounding No. It's barely a no.

A few small tweeks and its likely a go.

100% Win for Management. It's their wildest dream to get 51%. So close.

FWIW, the communities Encore services absolutely need Encore, so they weren't in danger of parking anything. Where would they get pilots to replace them? Exactly, no where. ALL THAT LEVERAGE and...........uhhhh.........

Next......

[Stratopaused]

FWIW, the communities Encore services absolutely need Encore, so they weren't in danger of parking anything. Where would they get pilots to replace them? Exactly, no where. ALL THAT LEVERAGE and...........uhhhh.........

Which ones? Almost all of Encore's destinations are also served by mainline at other times of the day, and with the exception of one, all of the rest are served by other carriers. Do you really think management is willing to spend whatever is necessary to maintain service to Brandon? I absolutely support the Encore pilots for voting down this TA, and I think it's fantastic that they might get more out of the company, but I think a lot of people are overestimating how much they're worth to WestJet. There are, what, fifteen tails in service at any one time? That's equal to 6.5 737-800s in terms of seating capacity, which can be sorted out pretty easily with some shuffling of the schedule. Hell, WestJet just picked up four of Lynx's aircraft just this week.

All of the numbers that have been thrown around about how much profit share was distributed or how much the Alexis makes are irrelevant, because the issue isn't that the company literally doesn't have another dollar to spend, it's whether keeping Encore going is a good value proposition. Encore costs a certain amount to keep in operation; it also generates a certain amount of revenue on its own flights, plus it provides connecting passengers who continue on jet flights. If the costs outweigh the benefits, then there's no reason to keep it going. It's a complex calculation that requires factoring in how much revenue would be lost by dropping routes or reducing frequencies, including how many connecting pax would be lost, but I bet they're already operating on a razor's edge. There are too few ASMs to make much of an impact on the company's overall network, especially if the majority of people flying out of YXJ and YQT aren't getting on a 787 to go overseas, and even moreso if those passengers aren't buying premium or business-class tickets. An airline needs mechanics to keep operating, but it doesn't need Dash-8s, and if the cost of operating them is greater than the return they generate, then I have no doubt that this cut-throat management team will slash and burn. They know exactly how much they're willing to spend to keep the planes flying, and their offers likely reflect that, so while it's admirable to push for 10% WSP it would be really easy to go too far with the demands.

I know I'm going to be called defeatist and a management shill, and I have no skin in the game, so it's not my fight, I just think there needs to be a counterpoint to all of these people claiming that the Encore pilots have all the power in this relationship. Someone needs to play devil's advocate and point out that Encore is an afterthought to the company that they'll keep running as long as it doesn't cost them anything, and not one second longer. I just want to be on the record in a few months once this has all played out, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong; I'll come back here and metaphorically eat my hat if that's the case.

[throwawaycorporate]

As an outsider here.

Carson has increased pay to $115K to fly a metro day cargo in yyc
Porter is hiring for another 35 tails
Medevac CA now pays similar if not more

If this TA gets voted down and encore folds, there are other jobs. Even Westjet will need to fill for increased lift on the old encore routes.

[lowoleo22]

As an outsider here.

Carson has increased pay to $115K to fly a metro day cargo in yyc
Porter is hiring for another 35 tails
Medevac CA now pays similar if not more

If this TA gets voted down and encore folds, there are other jobs. Even Westjet will need to fill for increased lift on the old encore routes.

Absolutely. When Porter announced it was down-sizing its YHZ base, PAL Airlines jumped in offering positions for DEC Q400 Captains at YHZ. Other airlines are paying attention. Vote for what you deserve, not what you "think" the airline can handle.

[ShillBill]

FWIW, the communities Encore services absolutely need Encore, so they weren't in danger of parking anything. Where would they get pilots to replace them? Exactly, no where. ALL THAT LEVERAGE and...........uhhhh.........

Which ones? Almost all of Encore's destinations are also served by mainline at other times of the day, and with the exception of one, all of the rest are served by other carriers. Do you really think management is willing to spend whatever is necessary to maintain service to Brandon? I absolutely support the Encore pilots for voting down this TA, and I think it's fantastic that they might get more out of the company, but I think a lot of people are overestimating how much they're worth to WestJet. There are, what, fifteen tails in service at any one time? That's equal to 6.5 737-800s in terms of seating capacity, which can be sorted out pretty easily with some shuffling of the schedule. Hell, WestJet just picked up four of Lynx's aircraft just this week.

All of the numbers that have been thrown around about how much profit share was distributed or how much the Alexis makes are irrelevant, because the issue isn't that the company literally doesn't have another dollar to spend, it's whether keeping Encore going is a good value proposition. Encore costs a certain amount to keep in operation; it also generates a certain amount of revenue on its own flights, plus it provides connecting passengers who continue on jet flights. If the costs outweigh the benefits, then there's no reason to keep it going. It's a complex calculation that requires factoring in how much revenue would be lost by dropping routes or reducing frequencies, including how many connecting pax would be lost, but I bet they're already operating on a razor's edge. There are too few ASMs to make much of an impact on the company's overall network, especially if the majority of people flying out of YXJ and YQT aren't getting on a 787 to go overseas, and even moreso if those passengers aren't buying premium or business-class tickets. An airline needs mechanics to keep operating, but it doesn't need Dash-8s, and if the cost of operating them is greater than the return they generate, then I have no doubt that this cut-throat management team will slash and burn. They know exactly how much they're willing to spend to keep the planes flying, and their offers likely reflect that, so while it's admirable to push for 10% WSP it would be really easy to go too far with the demands.

I know I'm going to be called defeatist and a management shill, and I have no skin in the game, so it's not my fight, I just think there needs to be a counterpoint to all of these people claiming that the Encore pilots have all the power in this relationship. Someone needs to play devil's advocate and point out that Encore is an afterthought to the company that they'll keep running as long as it doesn't cost them anything, and not one second longer. I just want to be on the record in a few months once this has all played out, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong; I'll come back here and metaphorically eat my hat if that's the case.

Oh here we go...the shill with the "Capture the Flying" mantra

It's true the company will only do what is profitable

They can do whatever they want with whatever planes they want

It is not a union's job to worry about the business operations of a company

It's job is it to purely look out for its members and call BS Bluffs

And this is a CLASSIC union busting maneuver.

"We will be unprofitable with these raises" blah blah

Fact is pilots are a high priced commodity these days and pilot pay is miniscule part of the overall scheme.

These companies ALREADY enjoy a huge labor cost advantage over anything in North America..this is nothing but corporate greed. Period

The most profitable airlines in North America also have the highest paid pilots.

There is zero reason to worry about Canadian airlines "shutting down" or "reducing operations" because of increased pilot wages

IT IS A BLUFF

Ignore the shills. History will prove these guys are cancer, again

[dumpsterfire]

Shills gonna shill

[digits_]

Westjet growing and shutting down Encore would be the best outcome for *everyone* except Encore management.

[Realitychex]

FWIW, the communities Encore services absolutely need Encore, so they weren't in danger of parking anything. Where would they get pilots to replace them? Exactly, no where. ALL THAT LEVERAGE and...........uhhhh.........

Which ones? Almost all of Encore's destinations are also served by mainline at other times of the day, and with the exception of one, all of the rest are served by other carriers. Do you really think management is willing to spend whatever is necessary to maintain service to Brandon? I absolutely support the Encore pilots for voting down this TA, and I think it's fantastic that they might get more out of the company, but I think a lot of people are overestimating how much they're worth to WestJet. There are, what, fifteen tails in service at any one time? That's equal to 6.5 737-800s in terms of seating capacity, which can be sorted out pretty easily with some shuffling of the schedule. Hell, WestJet just picked up four of Lynx's aircraft just this week.

All of the numbers that have been thrown around about how much profit share was distributed or how much the Alexis makes are irrelevant, because the issue isn't that the company literally doesn't have another dollar to spend, it's whether keeping Encore going is a good value proposition. Encore costs a certain amount to keep in operation; it also generates a certain amount of revenue on its own flights, plus it provides connecting passengers who continue on jet flights. If the costs outweigh the benefits, then there's no reason to keep it going. It's a complex calculation that requires factoring in how much revenue would be lost by dropping routes or reducing frequencies, including how many connecting pax would be lost, but I bet they're already operating on a razor's edge. There are too few ASMs to make much of an impact on the company's overall network, especially if the majority of people flying out of YXJ and YQT aren't getting on a 787 to go overseas, and even moreso if those passengers aren't buying premium or business-class tickets. An airline needs mechanics to keep operating, but it doesn't need Dash-8s, and if the cost of operating them is greater than the return they generate, then I have no doubt that this cut-throat management team will slash and burn. They know exactly how much they're willing to spend to keep the planes flying, and their offers likely reflect that, so while it's admirable to push for 10% WSP it would be really easy to go too far with the demands.

I know I'm going to be called defeatist and a management shill, and I have no skin in the game, so it's not my fight, I just think there needs to be a counterpoint to all of these people claiming that the Encore pilots have all the power in this relationship. Someone needs to play devil's advocate and point out that Encore is an afterthought to the company that they'll keep running as long as it doesn't cost them anything, and not one second longer. I just want to be on the record in a few months once this has all played out, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong; I'll come back here and metaphorically eat my hat if that's the case.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

It would be foolish to assume that this would only happen under Alexis / Onex ownership.

I can guarantee that the same would happen under Beddoe and Co in the first 10 years if the entire operation was placed in a position of being un-economic in an already razor-thin margin business.

The pennies add up into dollars.

Pigs get fed well, hogs get slaughtered.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Why do people think that this TA was voted down because of money?

Sure, the monetary gains were positive for some and negative for others, but there were several shortcomings that have nothing to do with compensation. For one, career progression, or lack thereof.