Do we Really Need to Close that Door

[pelmet]

On the 182 I flew, it was just a simple sideslip and that particular door would swing down. But if it won't close.....best to just leave it open, stay slow, and land.

C-FACX, a Cessna 182G operated by Airborne Petawawa, was being flown on a local flight from
Pembroke Airport (CYTA), ON, within a 25 nm-radius of the airport. The aircraft was in a skydiving
configuration and equipped with a “jump-door” STC modification on the right side. The pilot-in-
command was flying and executing a parachute jump from 12 000 feet ASL. An experienced flight
instructor was also on board to observe the pilot and to provide feedback to the parachute jump
school. After the three jumpers exited the aircraft, the pilot was unable to close the jump door in
accordance with the instructions of the associated STC. The pilot and the flight instructor struggled
with handling and closing the door. During that time, for reasons undetermined, the aircraft’s
airspeed increased beyond the certified limitation for operation of the aircraft with the door open.
Very shortly after (1-2 seconds), the jump door was ripped from the aircraft and departed the
fuselage. As a result, the right wing received damage (punctures), which caused fuel to leak for the
remainder of the flight. The right-wing flap received a significant dent. The aircraft landed without
further incident. The aircraft, from top-of-descent to being parked on the ramp, leaked
approximately 50 litres of avgas and was still leaking fuel onto the ramp after shutdown.

From TSB

[PilotDAR]

Yeah, This is pretty sad, the owner of the plane had invested quite a bit in the airplane to get it ready for jump operations. And, because the door hinge was drilled in place, matching the holes for a new hinge is going to be a lot of work. I can't think of any excuse for exceeding door Vne! When I flew such a door on a 185, operation of the door was dead simple, yawing the airplane controlled the door with great finesse - slowing the plane, and yawing it, I don't know how the door would stay open!

[bodyflyer2]

From the description it sounds like a new jump pilot was being checked out.
So much for having a flight instructor onboard to supervise. As 'DAR and Pelmet say, it is a simple job to close a swing-up jump door on a Cessna. Was someone too eager to get the nose down and start descending, instead of staying slow after the last jumper exited? Or just poor speed control while distracted?

As much as flying a 182 for a jump school is seen as a very-bottom-of-the-career-ladder job, it is still a job that has to be done properly.

(I have been around while newbie jump pilots on 182's were being evaluated or checked out, and a proportion certainly weren't making the grade. Newbie jump pilots are always a bit more of a hazard to us freefall meat-bags. Not that skydivers aren't dangerous to people and airplanes either...)

Edit: I don't know what jump door speeds might be on different STCs, but I recall max speeds on some C-182's being 80 mph to open the jump door, and 100 mph once open. Jump run itself might be, I dunno, 65 mph depending on circumstances.

[AirbornePetawawa]

I came here to post a job ad for our 2025 season and just noticed this topic.

This was such a devastating day for us, we were conducting training for the start of the season. All pilots had completed their dry runs, practicing to open and close the door with the instructor in the right seat. The incident occurred when our second pilot was conducting his first live drop, at this point the instructor is behind the pilot providing feedback. After the jumpers left the aircraft, the pilot was struggling to get the door down, it seems like he didn't slip the aircraft sufficiently. The door handle was an "inch" out of reach, the pilot continued to reach over while looking at it and failed to aviate. I refer to what followed as the new driver syndrome, where the vehicle follows your head, as he placed the aircraft into a nose dive to the right, exceeding the max IAS for the open door. All it took was a few distracted seconds. Fortunately, he was able to regain control and landed the aircraft safely.

I love the title of this topic, and to answer it: no, you really don't need to close the door. The aircraft is perfectly capable of flying with it open, you are just limited in you IAS during the decent. We have now implemented this in to our TP, and really attempt to drive the point that aviating comes first.

Attempt once, reset, attempt twice, and then carry on with life.

[Dias]

Yeah, This is pretty sad, the owner of the plane had invested quite a bit in the airplane to get it ready for jump operations.

How much did they invest in pilot salaries?

[pelmet]

I remember one of our pilots exceeded the redline speed after entering a cloud. He was known to be a bit of a weak pilot. Nice guy. The aircraft landed and a general look around showed all appearing normal. I arrived after the incident to jump and did that later in the day as one of several post-incident flights. They did decide after that to get a mechanic to look at it and it turned out that there was a lot of hidden damage including at strut attachment points.

It does seem a little odd that the Petawawa pilot lost control that much just reaching for the door but lots of stories happen at the DZ, at least the one I flew at.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I lost all respect after reading their last job ad. As if getting in bed with notorious Joe who takes advantage of young pilots will add a safety margin to their outfit let alone asking their new hire to complete a $3000 faux course in order to have the privilege of working for AirbornePetawawa. Absolutely disgusting.

TPC

[rookiepilot]

I remember one of our pilots exceeded the redline speed after entering a cloud. He was known to be a bit of a weak pilot. Nice guy. The aircraft landed and a general look around showed all appearing normal. I arrived after the incident to jump and did that later in the day as one of several post-incident flights. They did decide after that to get a mechanic to look at it and it turned out that there was a lot of hidden damage including at strut attachment points.

It does seem a little odd that the Petawawa pilot lost control that much just reaching for the door but lots of stories happen at the DZ, at least the one I flew at.

Did he flunk the ParaPilot course before? No ParaPilot sticker?

[‘Bob’]

I came here to post a job ad for our 2025 season and just noticed this topic.

This was such a devastating day for us, we were conducting training for the start of the season. All pilots had completed their dry runs, practicing to open and close the door with the instructor in the right seat. The incident occurred when our second pilot was conducting his first live drop, at this point the instructor is behind the pilot providing feedback. After the jumpers left the aircraft, the pilot was struggling to get the door down, it seems like he didn't slip the aircraft sufficiently. The door handle was an "inch" out of reach, the pilot continued to reach over while looking at it and failed to aviate. I refer to what followed as the new driver syndrome, where the vehicle follows your head, as he placed the aircraft into a nose dive to the right, exceeding the max IAS for the open door. All it took was a few distracted seconds. Fortunately, he was able to regain control and landed the aircraft safely.

I love the title of this topic, and to answer it: no, you really don't need to close the door. The aircraft is perfectly capable of flying with it open, you are just limited in you IAS during the decent. We have now implemented this in to our TP, and really attempt to drive the point that aviating comes first.

Attempt once, reset, attempt twice, and then carry on with life.

You get what you pay for.

And if a pilot is paying you for a job then you deserve the damage to your aircraft.

At least it wasn’t someone’s life who was lost.

I’ve done all kinds of specialty flying. Survey, telemetry, detection, photography, medevac, bird dog, water bombing, and every operation I worked for paid me to learn how to do that.

And if this is just student paid training to meet your qualifications? There had better be additional company paid training to meet the training requirements in your COM or you are violating Transport Canada and Labour Canada regulations.

Since you have to pay for the three hours or so of initial training anyway, better to teach them how to drop meat bombs that way since it gives you better aircraft utilization for your drop zone.

Because if you have jumpers paying for jumps while a “student” is paying to learn how to be a jump pilot? Pretty sure that’s a big no no as well. I remember a flight school getting busted in ZBB for that.. chisel charters and aerial work being done by paying students.

[rookiepilot]

I came here to post a job ad for our 2025 season and just noticed this topic.

This was such a devastating day for us, we were conducting training for the start of the season. All pilots had completed their dry runs, practicing to open and close the door with the instructor in the right seat. The incident occurred when our second pilot was conducting his first live drop, at this point the instructor is behind the pilot providing feedback. After the jumpers left the aircraft, the pilot was struggling to get the door down, it seems like he didn't slip the aircraft sufficiently. The door handle was an "inch" out of reach, the pilot continued to reach over while looking at it and failed to aviate. I refer to what followed as the new driver syndrome, where the vehicle follows your head, as he placed the aircraft into a nose dive to the right, exceeding the max IAS for the open door. All it took was a few distracted seconds. Fortunately, he was able to regain control and landed the aircraft safely.

I love the title of this topic, and to answer it: no, you really don't need to close the door. The aircraft is perfectly capable of flying with it open, you are just limited in you IAS during the decent. We have now implemented this in to our TP, and really attempt to drive the point that aviating comes first.

Attempt once, reset, attempt twice, and then carry on with life.

You get what you pay for.

And if a pilot is paying you for a job then you deserve the damage to your aircraft.

At least it wasn’t someone’s life who was lost.

I’ve done all kinds of specialty flying. Survey, telemetry, detection, photography, medevac, bird dog, water bombing, and every operation I worked for paid me to learn how to do that.

And if this is just student paid training to meet your qualifications? There had better be additional company paid training to meet the training requirements in your COM or you are violating Transport Canada and Labour Canada regulations.

Since you have to pay for the three hours or so of initial training anyway, better to teach them how to drop meat bombs that way since it gives you better aircraft utilization for your drop zone.

Because if you have jumpers paying for jumps while a “student” is paying to learn how to be a jump pilot? Pretty sure that’s a big no no as well. I remember a flight school getting busted in ZBB for that.. chisel charters and aerial work being done by paying students.

Everything is “devastating” today. A CBC word.

A damaged aircraft is “devastating”
A delayed flight and vacation is “devastating “
A hurt feeling is “devastating”.
A ruined meal. A lost deposit. Devastating! Look at me!

Shut up. You don’t know the meaning of the word.

[AirbornePetawawa]

I came here to post a job ad for our 2025 season and just noticed this topic.

This was such a devastating day for us, we were conducting training for the start of the season. All pilots had completed their dry runs, practicing to open and close the door with the instructor in the right seat. The incident occurred when our second pilot was conducting his first live drop, at this point the instructor is behind the pilot providing feedback. After the jumpers left the aircraft, the pilot was struggling to get the door down, it seems like he didn't slip the aircraft sufficiently. The door handle was an "inch" out of reach, the pilot continued to reach over while looking at it and failed to aviate. I refer to what followed as the new driver syndrome, where the vehicle follows your head, as he placed the aircraft into a nose dive to the right, exceeding the max IAS for the open door. All it took was a few distracted seconds. Fortunately, he was able to regain control and landed the aircraft safely.

I love the title of this topic, and to answer it: no, you really don't need to close the door. The aircraft is perfectly capable of flying with it open, you are just limited in you IAS during the decent. We have now implemented this in to our TP, and really attempt to drive the point that aviating comes first.

Attempt once, reset, attempt twice, and then carry on with life.

You get what you pay for.

And if a pilot is paying you for a job then you deserve the damage to your aircraft.

At least it wasn’t someone’s life who was lost.

I’ve done all kinds of specialty flying. Survey, telemetry, detection, photography, medevac, bird dog, water bombing, and every operation I worked for paid me to learn how to do that.

And if this is just student paid training to meet your qualifications? There had better be additional company paid training to meet the training requirements in your COM or you are violating Transport Canada and Labour Canada regulations.

Since you have to pay for the three hours or so of initial training anyway, better to teach them how to drop meat bombs that way since it gives you better aircraft utilization for your drop zone.

Because if you have jumpers paying for jumps while a “student” is paying to learn how to be a jump pilot? Pretty sure that’s a big no no as well. I remember a flight school getting busted in ZBB for that.. chisel charters and aerial work being done by paying students.

We train our pilots in compliance with Transport Canada regulations, and safety is our priority. Your assumptions about our operation are incorrect; but, thank you for your input.

[AirbornePetawawa]

I came here to post a job ad for our 2025 season and just noticed this topic.

This was such a devastating day for us, we were conducting training for the start of the season. All pilots had completed their dry runs, practicing to open and close the door with the instructor in the right seat. The incident occurred when our second pilot was conducting his first live drop, at this point the instructor is behind the pilot providing feedback. After the jumpers left the aircraft, the pilot was struggling to get the door down, it seems like he didn't slip the aircraft sufficiently. The door handle was an "inch" out of reach, the pilot continued to reach over while looking at it and failed to aviate. I refer to what followed as the new driver syndrome, where the vehicle follows your head, as he placed the aircraft into a nose dive to the right, exceeding the max IAS for the open door. All it took was a few distracted seconds. Fortunately, he was able to regain control and landed the aircraft safely.

I love the title of this topic, and to answer it: no, you really don't need to close the door. The aircraft is perfectly capable of flying with it open, you are just limited in you IAS during the decent. We have now implemented this in to our TP, and really attempt to drive the point that aviating comes first.

Attempt once, reset, attempt twice, and then carry on with life.

You get what you pay for.

And if a pilot is paying you for a job then you deserve the damage to your aircraft.

At least it wasn’t someone’s life who was lost.

I’ve done all kinds of specialty flying. Survey, telemetry, detection, photography, medevac, bird dog, water bombing, and every operation I worked for paid me to learn how to do that.

And if this is just student paid training to meet your qualifications? There had better be additional company paid training to meet the training requirements in your COM or you are violating Transport Canada and Labour Canada regulations.

Since you have to pay for the three hours or so of initial training anyway, better to teach them how to drop meat bombs that way since it gives you better aircraft utilization for your drop zone.

Because if you have jumpers paying for jumps while a “student” is paying to learn how to be a jump pilot? Pretty sure that’s a big no no as well. I remember a flight school getting busted in ZBB for that.. chisel charters and aerial work being done by paying students.

Everything is “devastating” today. A CBC word.

A damaged aircraft is “devastating”
A delayed flight and vacation is “devastating “
A hurt feeling is “devastating”.
A ruined meal. A lost deposit. Devastating! Look at me!

Shut up. You don’t know the meaning of the word.

As for the term ‘devastating’—we take flight safety seriously, and any incident that could have escalated is treated as a learning opportunity to prevent future issues. If that offends your personal dictionary, well, we won’t lose sleep over it.

[rookiepilot]

You get what you pay for.

And if a pilot is paying you for a job then you deserve the damage to your aircraft.

At least it wasn’t someone’s life who was lost.

I’ve done all kinds of specialty flying. Survey, telemetry, detection, photography, medevac, bird dog, water bombing, and every operation I worked for paid me to learn how to do that.

And if this is just student paid training to meet your qualifications? There had better be additional company paid training to meet the training requirements in your COM or you are violating Transport Canada and Labour Canada regulations.

Since you have to pay for the three hours or so of initial training anyway, better to teach them how to drop meat bombs that way since it gives you better aircraft utilization for your drop zone.

Because if you have jumpers paying for jumps while a “student” is paying to learn how to be a jump pilot? Pretty sure that’s a big no no as well. I remember a flight school getting busted in ZBB for that.. chisel charters and aerial work being done by paying students.

Everything is “devastating” today. A CBC word.

A damaged aircraft is “devastating”
A delayed flight and vacation is “devastating “
A hurt feeling is “devastating”.
A ruined meal. A lost deposit. Devastating! Look at me!

Shut up. You don’t know the meaning of the word.

As for the term ‘devastating’—we take flight safety seriously, and any incident that could have escalated is treated as a learning opportunity to prevent future issues. If that offends your personal dictionary, well, we won’t lose sleep over it.

Taking flight safety seriously is an appropriate response. So is a learning opportunity. Devastating is not, and your post devalues the very word in my view.

[cdnavater]

I came here to post a job ad for our 2025 season and just noticed this topic.

This was such a devastating day for us, we were conducting training for the start of the season. All pilots had completed their dry runs, practicing to open and close the door with the instructor in the right seat. The incident occurred when our second pilot was conducting his first live drop, at this point the instructor is behind the pilot providing feedback. After the jumpers left the aircraft, the pilot was struggling to get the door down, it seems like he didn't slip the aircraft sufficiently. The door handle was an "inch" out of reach, the pilot continued to reach over while looking at it and failed to aviate. I refer to what followed as the new driver syndrome, where the vehicle follows your head, as he placed the aircraft into a nose dive to the right, exceeding the max IAS for the open door. All it took was a few distracted seconds. Fortunately, he was able to regain control and landed the aircraft safely.

I love the title of this topic, and to answer it: no, you really don't need to close the door. The aircraft is perfectly capable of flying with it open, you are just limited in you IAS during the decent. We have now implemented this in to our TP, and really attempt to drive the point that aviating comes first.

Attempt once, reset, attempt twice, and then carry on with life.

You get what you pay for.

And if a pilot is paying you for a job then you deserve the damage to your aircraft.

At least it wasn’t someone’s life who was lost.

I’ve done all kinds of specialty flying. Survey, telemetry, detection, photography, medevac, bird dog, water bombing, and every operation I worked for paid me to learn how to do that.

And if this is just student paid training to meet your qualifications? There had better be additional company paid training to meet the training requirements in your COM or you are violating Transport Canada and Labour Canada regulations.

Since you have to pay for the three hours or so of initial training anyway, better to teach them how to drop meat bombs that way since it gives you better aircraft utilization for your drop zone.

Because if you have jumpers paying for jumps while a “student” is paying to learn how to be a jump pilot? Pretty sure that’s a big no no as well. I remember a flight school getting busted in ZBB for that.. chisel charters and aerial work being done by paying students.

We train our pilots in compliance with Transport Canada regulations, and safety is our priority. Your assumptions about our operation are incorrect; but, thank you for your input.

I’d like to know how you’re complying with T.C regulations? To train on company aircraft they need to be employees unless you are an FTU, so are you paying your “employees” or not? Are you licensed as an FTU?