Encore TA compared to Perimeter - Less pay & credit

[Janitroll]

Perimeter Agreement

Dash100, half seats of Q400

Min daily 4.3 hours & 1:4 Trip rig

The Minimum Daily Credit (MDC) of four point three (4.3) Credit Hours per Calendar Day that contains a Flight Duty Period, a Reserve Duty Period (RDP) or any other Duty Period unless specified otherwise within this Agreement;

Minimum Daily Credit (MDC): A minimum calendar Day credit of four point three (4.3) hours of pay and credit associated with each assigned Day that contains a Flight Duty Period, a Reserve Availability Period or any other Duty assigned by the Company other than on a Day Off, Vacation Day or Holiday Day.

A Pilot on a calendar Day away from Base with no scheduled Duty shall be credited the MDC

A minimum of one (1) hour of pay and credit for every four (4) hours that a Pilot is away from their Permanent Base beginning at the Pilot’s initial Report Time and ending at the Pilot’s final Release Time for the Pairing (I.e., Time Away From Base - TAFB).

If a Pilot’s only Duty consists of Deadheading, the Pilot shall be paid and credited the greater of the Minimum Daily Credit (MDC) or the greater of the scheduled or actual Deadhead

Cancellation Pay: A Pilot who incurs a cancellation of a flight Segment or entire Pairing:

a) who is not reassigned shall be guaranteed the pay and credit value of the entire Flight Segment or Pairing as appropriate.

b) who is Reassigned shall be guaranteed the pay and credit value of the cancelled flight or the re-assignment, whichever is greater.

Base Pay
Captain - Dash 8 100

2025 rate
Year 1 117.59
Year 2 127.28

2026
Year 1 123.47
Year 5 133.65

2027
Year 1 129.64
Year 5 140.33

https://negotech.service.canada.ca/eng/ ... 22502a.pdf

[digits_]

Every northern 705 pilot should make at least double than what their 'normal' airline counterparts make.

[‘Bob’]

Imagine thinking pay is based on the number of seats… lol.

Solution is simple, go work for Perimeter instead of Encore.

[cdnavater]

Imagine thinking pay is based on the number of seats… lol.

Solution is simple, go work for Perimeter instead of Encore.

Imagine thinking it’s not! lol!
In your mind an A380 Captain and a dash 100 Captain should be paid the same?
It’s really simple, more seats, more revenue generating capability, more pay, that’s how it has always worked

Figured I better put, there is a supply demand variable to certain jobs that nobody wants, which is why Perimeter is paying more and medevac pays more, etc.

[digits_]

Imagine thinking pay is based on the number of seats… lol.

Solution is simple, go work for Perimeter instead of Encore.

Imagine thinking it’s not! lol!
In your mind an A380 Captain and a dash 100 Captain should be paid the same?
It’s really simple, more seats, more revenue generating capability, more pay, that’s how it has always worked

That's artificially negotiated by the union, and can be changed if so desired.

Figured I better put, there is a supply demand variable to certain jobs that nobody wants, which is why Perimeter is paying more and medevac pays more, etc.

That's a basic economic principle and a necessity for the company's survival.

They are not the same.

[cdnavater]

Imagine thinking pay is based on the number of seats… lol.

Solution is simple, go work for Perimeter instead of Encore.

Imagine thinking it’s not! lol!
In your mind an A380 Captain and a dash 100 Captain should be paid the same?
It’s really simple, more seats, more revenue generating capability, more pay, that’s how it has always worked

That's artificially negotiated by the union, and can be changed if so desired.

Figured I better put, there is a supply demand variable to certain jobs that nobody wants, which is why Perimeter is paying more and medevac pays more, etc.

That's a basic economic principle and a necessity for the company's survival.

They are not the same.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by artificially negotiated by the union?
They pay by seats or weight or a combination of that with few exceptions like status pay which I guarantee the seats factor in to that, just spread around to all pilots

[digits_]

Imagine thinking it’s not! lol!
In your mind an A380 Captain and a dash 100 Captain should be paid the same?
It’s really simple, more seats, more revenue generating capability, more pay, that’s how it has always worked

That's artificially negotiated by the union, and can be changed if so desired.

Figured I better put, there is a supply demand variable to certain jobs that nobody wants, which is why Perimeter is paying more and medevac pays more, etc.

That's a basic economic principle and a necessity for the company's survival.

They are not the same.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by artificially negotiated by the union?
They pay by seats or weight or a combination of that with few exceptions like status pay which I guarantee the seats factor in to that, just spread around to all pilots

If the union would want all pilots to make the same regardless of equipment, the company would likely agree to that, assuming the total employee cost is the same.

There's no economical reason why a 777 pilot would need to make more than a 737 pilot. Both seats would still be able to be filled if both pilots made the average of the position (eg 737 make more, 777 make less).

The required skills, supply and work conditions are very similar. None really need higher pay than the other. The justification based on weight seems to be some sort of industry/union standard, but is in no way required.

Flat pay at AC is a good example of that. The idea is not necessarily bad, it's just way too low to attract people if the dangling carrot wasn't there.


Or, to look at it from a completely different point of view: if you had 2 airlines, one flying 737, the other 777 aircraft, both with the same experience requirements, both advertising the same salary, both airlines would have plenty of applicants. I'd wager the 777 airline likely would have more applicants. You might even run into some PC12 like situation where the smaller airplane demands higher wages because it might be considered less desirably by some.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Chase the metal. Nothing like adding “heavy” to your callsign. That’s worth 100k right there. Extra radio telephony work.

[digits_]

Chase the metal. Nothing like adding “heavy” to your callsign. That’s worth 100k right there. Extra radio telephony work.

I'm even willing to outbid you and pay you 110k for the privilege!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Chase the metal. Nothing like adding “heavy” to your callsign. That’s worth 100k right there. Extra radio telephony work.

I'm even willing to outbid you and pay you 110k for the privilege!

Sold!!!!!

[cdnavater]

That's artificially negotiated by the union, and can be changed if so desired.

That's a basic economic principle and a necessity for the company's survival.

They are not the same.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by artificially negotiated by the union?
They pay by seats or weight or a combination of that with few exceptions like status pay which I guarantee the seats factor in to that, just spread around to all pilots

If the union would want all pilots to make the same regardless of equipment, the company would likely agree to that, assuming the total employee cost is the same.

There's no economical reason why a 777 pilot would need to make more than a 737 pilot. Both seats would still be able to be filled if both pilots made the average of the position (eg 737 make more, 777 make less).

The required skills, supply and work conditions are very similar. None really need higher pay than the other. The justification based on weight seems to be some sort of industry/union standard, but is in no way required.

Flat pay at AC is a good example of that. The idea is not necessarily bad, it's just way too low to attract people if the dangling carrot wasn't there.


Or, to look at it from a completely different point of view: if you had 2 airlines, one flying 737, the other 777 aircraft, both with the same experience requirements, both advertising the same salary, both airlines would have plenty of applicants. I'd wager the 777 airline likely would have more applicants. You might even run into some PC12 like situation where the smaller airplane demands higher wages because it might be considered less desirably by some.

I hear what you’re saying and you’re a basically referring to an industry known of status pay.
Not many do it and the ones that do, the effect is the wide body flying is more junior because for the same pay the senior guys can bid narrow body domestic flying and be home more.
However, you’re example of two companies, one flying 737 and the other flying only 777 paying the same, good luck finding that, never seen or heard of it.
Emerates, non unionized last I checked pays more for the 380 than the rest of the fleet, what’s your reasoning for that?
To be clear, I’m not saying one job is more worthy, I’m saying it pays more because it has more revenue generating capability which is how we get paid

[digits_]

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by artificially negotiated by the union?
They pay by seats or weight or a combination of that with few exceptions like status pay which I guarantee the seats factor in to that, just spread around to all pilots

If the union would want all pilots to make the same regardless of equipment, the company would likely agree to that, assuming the total employee cost is the same.

There's no economical reason why a 777 pilot would need to make more than a 737 pilot. Both seats would still be able to be filled if both pilots made the average of the position (eg 737 make more, 777 make less).

The required skills, supply and work conditions are very similar. None really need higher pay than the other. The justification based on weight seems to be some sort of industry/union standard, but is in no way required.

Flat pay at AC is a good example of that. The idea is not necessarily bad, it's just way too low to attract people if the dangling carrot wasn't there.


Or, to look at it from a completely different point of view: if you had 2 airlines, one flying 737, the other 777 aircraft, both with the same experience requirements, both advertising the same salary, both airlines would have plenty of applicants. I'd wager the 777 airline likely would have more applicants. You might even run into some PC12 like situation where the smaller airplane demands higher wages because it might be considered less desirably by some.

I hear what you’re saying and you’re a basically referring to an industry known of status pay.
Not many do it and the ones that do, the effect is the wide body flying is more junior because for the same pay the senior guys can bid narrow body domestic flying and be home more.
However, you’re example of two companies, one flying 737 and the other flying only 777 paying the same, good luck finding that, never seen or heard of it.
Emerates, non unionized last I checked pays more for the 380 than the rest of the fleet, what’s your reasoning for that?
To be clear, I’m not saying one job is more worthy, I’m saying it pays more because it has more revenue generating capability which is how we get paid

Could be for a lot of reasons. Perhaps they still want the dangling carrot effect. Perhaps the routings are more tiring or less desirable. Perhaps they are afraid of losing typerated people to the competition due to a lack of training slots. Maybe the rating is just rarer and they might prefer typerated pilots. It could be a status thing as well: we fly the biggest plane so we want the most expensive ('best') pilots flying it.

Some of those reasons are related to the size of the plane, but it's not necessarily a direct connection.

[fish4life]

Imagine thinking pay is based on the number of seats… lol.

Solution is simple, go work for Perimeter instead of Encore.

Imagine thinking it’s not! lol!
In your mind an A380 Captain and a dash 100 Captain should be paid the same?
It’s really simple, more seats, more revenue generating capability, more pay, that’s how it has always worked

Figured I better put, there is a supply demand variable to certain jobs that nobody wants, which is why Perimeter is paying more and medevac pays more, etc.

The piece of the puzzle you are missing is a seat on an aircraft with guaranteed government contracts up north will have higher margins than a seat on a CPA carrier.
Look up EIC’s market cap, it’s not only airlines but there is a reason they are worth over 2 billion and AC which is Canada’s largest airline by a big margin is only worth 3X more.

[‘Bob’]

Imagine thinking pay is based on the number of seats… lol.

Solution is simple, go work for Perimeter instead of Encore.

Imagine thinking it’s not! lol!
In your mind an A380 Captain and a dash 100 Captain should be paid the same?
It’s really simple, more seats, more revenue generating capability, more pay, that’s how it has always worked

And yet….

I’d also consider that something like an A380 isn’t going to generate as many credit hours plus have you away from home for a long time. Maybe a golden parachute put in there as the type is being rapidly retired.

Supply and demand, yet again.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Perimeter Agreement

Dash100, half seats of Q400

Min daily 4.3 hours & 1:4 Trip rig

The Minimum Daily Credit (MDC) of four point three (4.3) Credit Hours per Calendar Day that contains a Flight Duty Period, a Reserve Duty Period (RDP) or any other Duty Period unless specified otherwise within this Agreement;

Minimum Daily Credit (MDC): A minimum calendar Day credit of four point three (4.3) hours of pay and credit associated with each assigned Day that contains a Flight Duty Period, a Reserve Availability Period or any other Duty assigned by the Company other than on a Day Off, Vacation Day or Holiday Day.

A Pilot on a calendar Day away from Base with no scheduled Duty shall be credited the MDC

A minimum of one (1) hour of pay and credit for every four (4) hours that a Pilot is away from their Permanent Base beginning at the Pilot’s initial Report Time and ending at the Pilot’s final Release Time for the Pairing (I.e., Time Away From Base - TAFB).

If a Pilot’s only Duty consists of Deadheading, the Pilot shall be paid and credited the greater of the Minimum Daily Credit (MDC) or the greater of the scheduled or actual Deadhead

Cancellation Pay: A Pilot who incurs a cancellation of a flight Segment or entire Pairing:

a) who is not reassigned shall be guaranteed the pay and credit value of the entire Flight Segment or Pairing as appropriate.

b) who is Reassigned shall be guaranteed the pay and credit value of the cancelled flight or the re-assignment, whichever is greater.

Base Pay
Captain - Dash 8 100

2025 rate
Year 1 117.59
Year 2 127.28

2026
Year 1 123.47
Year 5 133.65

2027
Year 1 129.64
Year 5 140.33

https://negotech.service.canada.ca/eng/ ... 22502a.pdf

Encore's trip RIGs are the greatest of the credits worked/scheduled (sched or better), 50% duty day, 25% TAFB.

[bobcaygeon]

Jazz is on a status pay scale.

BA used to be, not sure about that now, Sr captains would bid down to the narrow bodies once they got sick of long haul and the toll it takes on the body.