Did ACPA nearly cause a Scope Collision?

[ClarkG]

Did we have a near miss with Scope thanks to ACPA?

https://simpleflying.com/skywest-airlin ... nto-fleet/

Looks like a US Carrier is spooling up a 55 seat operation. ACPA didn't even know these could exist.

ACPA, the gift that kept on giving. Good thing we got adults at the table now


From the last ACPA dumpsterfire of a MOA:

Tier 2 (Small Jet Aircraft of 55 seats or less/Propeller Aircraft with 80 seats or less) codeshare within Canada/Transborder – An ACPA Scope Committee assessment determined that this would have a negligible to zero impact on scope for AC pilots. The MOA sets a 55-jet limit and covers a dwindling and aging fleet
 

[Cavalier44]

The CRJ550 has been in service with United Express since 2019. It’s certainly possible that the language of the MOA was intended to allow Air Canada to contract with United Airlines in order to have some portion of Jazz’s trans-border flying be covered under a code share agreement with one of United’s regional affiliates.

Like everything that ACPA was involved in, the wording of the MOA language was disingenuous at best. Thankfully, the pilot group was able to see through the sell-job and shoot the MOA down.

[dumpsterfire]

The CRJ550 has been in service with United Express since 2019. It’s certainly possible that the language of the MOA was intended to allow Air Canada to contract with United Airlines in order to have some portion of Jazz’s trans-border flying be covered under a code share agreement with one of United’s regional affiliates.

Like everything that ACPA was involved in, the wording of the MOA language was disingenuous at best. Thankfully, the pilot group was able to see through the sell-job and shoot the MOA down.

Well said

ACPA...what a dumpsterfire

[Nick678]

Would there have been any merit to passing the last MOA then bringing in ALPA exit the contract and open negots? At least there would have been wage increases for those two years.

I’m new to the company so please forgive me if this question is tone deaf or stupid.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Would there have been any merit to passing the last MOA then bringing in ALPA exit the contract and open negots? At least there would have been wage increases for those two years.

I’m new to the company so please forgive me if this question is tone deaf or stupid.

That MOA wasn't worth the paper it was written on, much less the minuscule "wage increases" it contained.

[Noblankcheques]

Yeah, good thing we won’t fall for that again!!

Wait, this just in……..

The chair and vice chair of the alpa negots committee that are at the table right now, today, are the same fools that brought us that trash.

Then JR went on the most f’d up hard-selling, angry, condescending, disingenuous rant trying to sell it on that notorious web presentation.

Remember how disgusted JR was that anyone would dare question his amazing deal? He was outraged. Remember those 3rd grade bar graphs that were distorted?

Yeah, glad those days are behind us…

[crashpadcommute]

Would there have been any merit to passing the last MOA then bringing in ALPA exit the contract and open negots? At least there would have been wage increases for those two years.

I’m new to the company so please forgive me if this question is tone deaf or stupid.

It contained PERMANENT concessions for subpar industry pay including untouchable Scope

While other airlines are capturing historic gains, ACPA was capturing concessions and sub industry pay

Air Canada pilots have been giving for 20 yrs. It is getting to the point where there is nothing left to give

[flyingfool]

Yeah, good thing we won’t fall for that again!!

Wait, this just in……..

The chair and vice chair of the alpa negots committee that are at the table right now, today, are the same fools that brought us that trash.

Then JR went on the most f’d up hard-selling, angry, condescending, disingenuous rant trying to sell it on that notorious web presentation.

Remember how disgusted JR was that anyone would dare question his amazing deal? He was outraged. Remember those 3rd grade bar graphs that were distorted?

Yeah, glad those days are behind us…

Everyone loves to blame the human versus the system in place. However, if you want systemic change and improvement, you need to look at the overall structure

For pilot unions, it is the MEC (elected by the members) that direct the negotiating committee

This didn't happen for TA1 in 2012 and the results were obvious. That architect is now the prime negotiator AGAINST the pilots. That's a completely different discussion

For the MOA, the shill MEC that was avoiding joining ALPA for corrupt and personal reasons, sent the Negotiating Committee in to "get a deal" when the company wanted MORE concessions

Any MEC in today's pilot market would have told them to pound sand. Instead, ACPA came back with another turd which was DIRECTED by that MEC of shills

Fast forward, those shills left with hurt buttholes & excuses

You want continuity in your negotiating committees. United had a disastrous "Tumi TA" and after recalls and change of leadership, still left some of their negots committee intact.

It is the MEC that directs the negotiating committee. Not the other way around

[Noblankcheques]

Yeah, good thing we won’t fall for that again!!

Wait, this just in……..

The chair and vice chair of the alpa negots committee that are at the table right now, today, are the same fools that brought us that trash.

Then JR went on the most f’d up hard-selling, angry, condescending, disingenuous rant trying to sell it on that notorious web presentation.

Remember how disgusted JR was that anyone would dare question his amazing deal? He was outraged. Remember those 3rd grade bar graphs that were distorted?

Yeah, glad those days are behind us…

Everyone loves to blame the human versus the system in place. However, if you want systemic change and improvement, you need to look at the overall structure

For pilot unions, it is the MEC (elected by the members) that direct the negotiating committee

This didn't happen for TA1 in 2012 and the results were obvious. That architect is now the prime negotiator AGAINST the pilots. That's a completely different discussion

For the MOA, the shill MEC that was avoiding joining ALPA for corrupt and personal reasons, sent the Negotiating Committee in to "get a deal" when the company wanted MORE concessions

Any MEC in today's pilot market would have told them to pound sand. Instead, ACPA came back with another turd which was DIRECTED by that MEC of shills

Fast forward, those shills left with hurt buttholes & excuses

You want continuity in your negotiating committees. United had a disastrous "Tumi TA" and after recalls and change of leadership, still left some of their negots committee intact.

It is the MEC that directs the negotiating committee. Not the other way around

Let me guess, you’ve worked here 5 or 6 years and are a P2P pilot. LOL.

You are wrong. The humans do matter. Stop bootlicking. I do not want continuity in the form of JR so maybe keep to stating what you want as opposed to telling me what I know. JR is toxic - fact. The purge didn’t go far enough. Blindly trust a union at your peril.

[RippleRock]

.

[RippleRock]

JR and HE should have been thrown out with the bath water. They aren't the only ones who remain. Our fabulous legal council BR should have been pitched in the bin hard too. Ridge has never done us any favours, quite the contrary.

They have far too much history negotiating "turkey" concessions. They are "used to working with our adversary" and puting icing on turds, then telling the Membership it's chocolate cake. The Company negotiators across the table know EXACTLY who they are, their "tells" everything. It's a game of "poker" and we are sending in "well known players". They are fully responsible for carrying the message from the Company negotiators directly to the MEC. The importance of that message and how its translated to our MEC is extreme. Who do we want in control of that message...."raging Ralf"? Do we want that message possibly distorted by "low expectations" because that's "all they know"???

Aside from the "messaging factor", we should have been cognisant of the "intimidation factor". JR and HE have ZERO intimidation capacity at the table. They are a 100% known entity". Not remotely intimidating to say the least. Is that who we wanted as our "point team" to do "battle" on our behalf??? Unreal.

This will likely be the most important contract in anyone's carrer on the property today. I don't care what anyone says, clean the swamp 100% or don't bother at all. That means everyone.

I will never trust the new ALPA MEC 100% for this blunder.


FWIW, we are "all in" with this "team" now. This is going to come down to Membership resolve 100%. Be prepared to walk until a United or Delta type contract is presented, and be prepared to VOTE F' NO if it isn't. My bet is we are out for 6 weeks to get even close. Prepare yourself, or expect less.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Yeah, good thing we won’t fall for that again!!

Wait, this just in……..

The chair and vice chair of the alpa negots committee that are at the table right now, today, are the same fools that brought us that trash.

Then JR went on the most f’d up hard-selling, angry, condescending, disingenuous rant trying to sell it on that notorious web presentation.

Remember how disgusted JR was that anyone would dare question his amazing deal? He was outraged. Remember those 3rd grade bar graphs that were distorted?

Yeah, glad those days are behind us…

Everyone loves to blame the human versus the system in place. However, if you want systemic change and improvement, you need to look at the overall structure

For pilot unions, it is the MEC (elected by the members) that direct the negotiating committee

This didn't happen for TA1 in 2012 and the results were obvious. That architect is now the prime negotiator AGAINST the pilots. That's a completely different discussion

For the MOA, the shill MEC that was avoiding joining ALPA for corrupt and personal reasons, sent the Negotiating Committee in to "get a deal" when the company wanted MORE concessions

Any MEC in today's pilot market would have told them to pound sand. Instead, ACPA came back with another turd which was DIRECTED by that MEC of shills

Fast forward, those shills left with hurt buttholes & excuses

You want continuity in your negotiating committees. United had a disastrous "Tumi TA" and after recalls and change of leadership, still left some of their negots committee intact.

It is the MEC that directs the negotiating committee. Not the other way around

Let me guess, you’ve worked here 5 or 6 years and are a P2P pilot. LOL.

You are wrong. The humans do matter. Stop bootlicking. I do not want continuity in the form of JR so maybe keep to stating what you want as opposed to telling me what I know. JR is toxic - fact. The purge didn’t go far enough. Blindly trust a union at your peril.

Let me guess...YOU were ready to take their place LOL

Pretty easy to fire, not so easy to hire especially at that point. Took months to get our pilots to wear lanyards and some still aren't

[eurotrash]

JR and HE should have been thrown out with the bath water. They aren't the only ones who remain. Our fabulous legal council BR should have been pitched in the bin hard too. Ridge has never done us any favours, quite the contrary.

They have far too much history negotiating "turkey" concessions. They are "used to working with our adversary" and puting icing on turds, then telling the Membership it's chocolate cake. The Company negotiators across the table know EXACTLY who they are, their "tells" everything. It's a game of "poker" and we are sending in "well known players". They are fully responsible for carrying the message from the Company negotiators directly to the MEC. The importance of that message and how its translated to our MEC is extreme. Who do we want in control of that message...."raging Ralf"? Do we want that message possibly distorted by "low expectations" because that's "all they know"???

Aside from the "messaging factor", we should have been cognisant of the "intimidation factor". JR and HE have ZERO intimidation capacity at the table. They are a 100% known entity". Not remotely intimidating to say the least. Is that who we wanted as our "point team" to do "battle" on our behalf??? Unreal.

This will likely be the most important contract in anyone's carrer on the property today. I don't care what anyone says, clean the swamp 100% or don't bother at all. That means everyone.

I will never trust the new ALPA MEC 100% for this blunder.


FWIW, we are "all in" with this "team" now. This is going to come down to Membership resolve 100%. Be prepared to walk until a United or Delta type contract is presented, and be prepared to VOTE F' NO if it isn't. My bet is we are out for 6 weeks to get even close. Prepare yourself, or expect less.

Ripple,

Who was going to replace them? A keyboard warrior? How has that turned out in the past

And do you not see any value in the continuity of the negotiating committee and the recommendation of that from any large ALPA carrier (ie the ones with true world class contracts?)

[GeoffPilot]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

[Montroyal]

Our MEC Chair who is possibly the best chair Air Canada pilots have ever had, is on the negots committee

I completely trust her moving forward in negotiations. Not to mention the committee is essentially seven people plus any deal would have to go through the MEC before any member sees it

[Noblankcheques]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

Easy princess.

Due to the major battles I had with acpa while I actually stood up for myself and the pilots in the past decades, there is zero chance I will be in a room with Brad Ridge, the other staff minions or the other committee chairs that are acpa hangovers without someone getting fired or hurt.
Looks like the MEC loves these clowns so you can go ahead and play in that sandbox if you want.

I’m especially not interested in listening to anything any YVR pilot has to say. That base acclaimed the worst reps for YEARS right up until what, 2022? Now you are switched on? You guys didn’t even put up a fight and run other candidates. Just sent buddy back to his cottage for multiple terms. Clown show. Winnipeg pilots will blow the Air Canada ceo at center ice during a jets game if they think it will stop that base from closing. (it eventually will, by the way).

I promise you that I have done more to uphold the contract by holding the line against managers than all of you bitches. Keep wearing your lanyard, then doing a deal with Crewsked to get home on your commute. Keep wearing your lanyard and going to work sick and fatigued. Keep wearing your lanyard and showing up for illegal training events. Keep wearing your lanyard and volunteering to promote the corporation at sporting events. Hilarious.

It’s adorable that you guys think there is an end to this with a new contract. IT NEVER ENDS. You can love a corporation or a union as much as you want, they will never love you back.

[GeoffPilot]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

Easy princess.

Due to the major battles I had with acpa while I actually stood up for myself and the pilots in the past decades, there is zero chance I will be in a room with Brad Ridge, the other staff minions or the other committee chairs that are acpa hangovers without someone getting fired or hurt.
Looks like the MEC loves these clowns so you can go ahead and play in that sandbox if you want.

I’m especially not interested in listening to anything any YVR pilot has to say. That base acclaimed the worst reps for YEARS right up until what, 2022? Now you are switched on? You guys didn’t even put up a fight and run other candidates. Just sent buddy back to his cottage for multiple terms. Clown show. Winnipeg pilots will blow the Air Canada ceo at center ice during a jets game if they think it will stop that base from closing. (it eventually will, by the way).

I promise you that I have done more to uphold the contract by holding the line against managers than all of you bitches. Keep wearing your lanyard, then doing a deal with Crewsked to get home on your commute. Keep wearing your lanyard and going to work sick and fatigued. Keep wearing your lanyard and showing up for illegal training events. Keep wearing your lanyard and volunteering to promote the corporation at sporting events. Hilarious.

It’s adorable that you guys think there is an end to this with a new contract. IT NEVER ENDS. You can love a corporation or a union as much as you want, they will never love you back.

Hard to disagree with these points

[RippleRock]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

Are we not allowed to have concerns, or is everything perfect. Unless you're "in the Union", no comments allowed...is that it? I pay dues a plenty for the record. I pay for displacements.

Has the fact that only 7-8 artilcles out of 30+ have been addressed properly over the entire Kaplan process not raised any alarm bells with you? Someone is getting stonewalled, hard. It's a hardcore "stall job" with JR at the helm. Summer protected, job done.

FWIW.....Why would anyone want to silence anybody? Why would you give advice how to silence anyone "quickly"? Very ACPA.


My interests are 100% in attaining a WCC for the entire pilot body. What's yours?

Comments and opinions welcome, and I won't even demand you volunteer at ALPA to make them.

[yvrgoods]

I’m especially not interested in listening to anything any YVR pilot has to say. That base acclaimed the worst reps for YEARS right up until what, 2022? Now you are switched on? You guys didn’t even put up a fight and run other candidates. Just sent buddy back to his cottage for multiple terms. Clown show. Winnipeg pilots will blow the Air Canada ceo at center ice during a jets game if they think it will stop that base from closing. (it eventually will, by the way).

To be fair to YVR, it was for a very long a Sr base. Major demographic shift there in the last 5 years, hence finally turfing those guys. Current reps I have a lot of respect for and have seen/heard of them do a lot when it comes to defending pilots against a vindictive YVR management team.

[unionism101]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

Are we not allowed to have concerns, or is everything perfect. Unless you're "in the Union", no comments allowed...is that it? I pay dues a plenty for the record. I pay for displacements.

Has the fact that only 7-8 artilcles out of 30+ have been addressed properly over the entire Kaplan process not raised any alarm bells with you? Someone is getting stonewalled, hard. It's a hardcore "stall job" with JR at the helm. Summer protected, job done.

FWIW.....Why would anyone want to silence anybody? Why would you give advice how to silence anyone "quickly"? Very ACPA.


My interests are 100% in attaining a WCC for the entire pilot body. What's yours?

Comments and opinions welcome, and I won't even demand you volunteer at ALPA to make them.

Lol...do you have any idea on the percentage of displacements approved?

This union is essentially a force of volunteers thanks to the hardwork of ACPA and a vindictive management team with hurt buttholes for being forced to now deal with ALPA

[RippleRock]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

Are we not allowed to have concerns, or is everything perfect. Unless you're "in the Union", no comments allowed...is that it? I pay dues a plenty for the record. I pay for displacements.

Has the fact that only 7-8 artilcles out of 30+ have been addressed properly over the entire Kaplan process not raised any alarm bells with you? Someone is getting stonewalled, hard. It's a hardcore "stall job" with JR at the helm. Summer protected, job done.

FWIW.....Why would anyone want to silence anybody? Why would you give advice how to silence anyone "quickly"? Very ACPA.


My interests are 100% in attaining a WCC for the entire pilot body. What's yours?

Comments and opinions welcome, and I won't even demand you volunteer at ALPA to make them.

Lol...do you have any idea on the percentage of displacements approved?

This union is essentially a force of volunteers thanks to the hardwork of ACPA and a vindictive management team with hurt buttholes for being forced to now deal with ALPA

Jeeez you guys get swung off on tangents easily.

The point was the Membership has the RIGHT to comment.

You need not be a part of the Union, volunteer or otherwise, to be "allowed permission" to say something about what's going on.

[RippleRock]

Quickest way to silent an upset member...throw them a volunteer application

Are we not allowed to have concerns, or is everything perfect. Unless you're "in the Union", no comments allowed...is that it? I pay dues a plenty for the record. I pay for displacements.

Has the fact that only 7-8 artilcles out of 30+ have been addressed properly over the entire Kaplan process not raised any alarm bells with you? Someone is getting stonewalled, hard. It's a hardcore "stall job" with JR at the helm. Summer protected, job done.

FWIW.....Why would anyone want to silence anybody? Why would you give advice how to silence anyone "quickly"? Very ACPA.


My interests are 100% in attaining a WCC for the entire pilot body. What's yours?

Comments and opinions welcome, and I won't even demand you volunteer at ALPA to make them.

Lol...do you have any idea on the percentage of displacements approved?

This union is essentially a force of volunteers thanks to the hardwork of ACPA and a vindictive management team with hurt buttholes for being forced to now deal with ALPA

Jeeez you guys get swung off on tangents easily.

The point was the Membership has the RIGHT to comment.

You need not be a part of the Union, volunteer or otherwise, to be "allowed permission" to say something about what's going on.


I'm prepared to debate, rather than look for ways to shut people up. Unless your name is Lt. Danielle Kaffee.

[Protonpilot]

Are we not allowed to have concerns, or is everything perfect. Unless you're "in the Union", no comments allowed...is that it? I pay dues a plenty for the record. I pay for displacements.

Has the fact that only 7-8 artilcles out of 30+ have been addressed properly over the entire Kaplan process not raised any alarm bells with you? Someone is getting stonewalled, hard. It's a hardcore "stall job" with JR at the helm. Summer protected, job done.

How is this helpful? The mediator protocol and its June 1 timeline was endorsed by the MEC.

Ever thought about having your NC's back on this? The three US majors and SWA went 2-3 years past their amendable dates before getting their deals. We've been at this less than a year, and are only 9 months past our expiry date. This is going to take time, and resolve. And less chirping.

Your ALPA NC was appointed by your ALPA MEC, who was elected by you. Jawing at the chair of the NC because this is taking longer than you'd like is not a great way of supporting our collective effort. Despite the fact that you're wearing a red lanyard.

If it takes more than nine months for the NC to turn down corp proposals that the membership would never ratify, don't blame them for taking the time necessary to get this right one article at at time.