Tentative Agreement 2

[digits_]

This would be almost hilarious if it wasn't as serious as a heart attack.

Unreal.

It would be very satisfying if more people voted NO on this than the previous one

[CaptDukeNukem]

Oh man.

Longer contract with very little increase in overall dollars. Send this back.

[CaptDukeNukem]

YYZ Base Closure
• Upon the effective date of the closure of the YYZ base, a YYZ based pilot may
elect to receive, in lieu of relocation expenses, the $12,500 lump sum
described in 23-1.01 d), without providing documentation.
o Payments will be made in twelve (12) monthly lump sum payments.



So, not a lump sum. Jesus. Come on. Who writes this garbage.

Also have fun with your standups in cranbrook.

[GetAGripen]

Take note Air Canada pilots, it's almost like the first deal is never worth it!

And by the looks of it neither is the second deal.

This one might squeak in. But honestly it's nothing substantial and doesn't fix the big issues.

17 day plan is a step in the right direction, imo.
WSP is a little better, gives more incentive for FOs to upgrade, but is still behind CA1 and way behind everyone else in the WestJet group. Boo, hiss.
Flow numbers a little higher. Still going to be a long time to flow with a substantial paycut at WJA on current contracts. Doesn't fix the core career progression problems or penalize WJA for missing targets.
5 year term. Yuck. The industry changes quickly and we'll be left behind as usual.
$12.5k for YYZ guys over a year, pennies.
Pasco Standups: Apparently they would have been scheduled that way for us anyway, at least it's on paper and paid as OT. Shrug.

Diederik and Alexis were pretty adamant in stating there would be no new money for this contract and they'd just be moving it around, but there's apparently $10m extra for years 1-4 and $10m for year 5 to make this happen.

Feels like another wasted strike deadline. Either there's no blood to squeeze from the stone or the NC just isn't squeezing hard enough.

[C-GGGQ]

17 days stretched to 18 for half the year. Flow number only higher with a significantly higher number of captains on site. Pay didn’t go up just an extra year tacked on.

[co-joe]

You'll notice the payscales they show are for Jan 2028, 3.5 years away. Talk about sneaky.

Is that a typo? Why would Encore's own ALPA MEC try to sneak in something that looks like a pay raise but doesn't take effect for 4 years?

[GetAGripen]

17 days stretched to 18 for half the year. Flow number only higher with a significantly higher number of captains on site. Pay didn’t go up just an extra year tacked on.

Notably the 'top 3' items on the new mandate listed were Flow, WSP, and Days Worked. 17ish is better than 18, kinda. Flow is just fundamentally f*cked at this company, I don't know how they're going to fix it and they seemingly don't care to do anything about retention. And yeah, pay still sucks.

You'll notice the payscales they show are for Jan 2028, 3.5 years away. Talk about sneaky.

Is that a typo? Why would Encore's own ALPA MEC try to sneak in something that looks like a pay raise but doesn't take effect for 4 years?

It's pretty clear it's just the scale for the added year to the contract, they're not selling it any differently than that.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Take note Air Canada pilots, it's almost like the first deal is never worth it!

And by the looks of it neither is the second deal.

This one might squeak in. But honestly it's nothing substantial and doesn't fix the big issues.

17 day plan is a step in the right direction, imo.
WSP is a little better, gives more incentive for FOs to upgrade, but is still behind CA1 and way behind everyone else in the WestJet group. Boo, hiss.
Flow numbers a little higher. Still going to be a long time to flow with a substantial paycut at WJA on current contracts. Doesn't fix the core career progression problems or penalize WJA for missing targets.
5 year term. Yuck. The industry changes quickly and we'll be left behind as usual.
$12.5k for YYZ guys over a year, pennies.
Pasco Standups: Apparently they would have been scheduled that way for us anyway, at least it's on paper and paid as OT. Shrug.

Diederik and Alexis were pretty adamant in stating there would be no new money for this contract and they'd just be moving it around, but there's apparently $10m extra for years 1-4 and $10m for year 5 to make this happen.

Feels like another wasted strike deadline. Either there's no blood to squeeze from the stone or the NC just isn't squeezing hard enough.

It seems like you’re okay with this TA? There’s very little new money in this compared to TA1. Flow is not a selling point.. look at jazz.

Stand ups will kill you slowly, no matter if they pay double time or more. This will be a great regret in a few months.

[GetAGripen]

Take note Air Canada pilots, it's almost like the first deal is never worth it!

And by the looks of it neither is the second deal.

This one might squeak in. But honestly it's nothing substantial and doesn't fix the big issues.

17 day plan is a step in the right direction, imo.
WSP is a little better, gives more incentive for FOs to upgrade, but is still behind CA1 and way behind everyone else in the WestJet group. Boo, hiss.
Flow numbers a little higher. Still going to be a long time to flow with a substantial paycut at WJA on current contracts. Doesn't fix the core career progression problems or penalize WJA for missing targets.
5 year term. Yuck. The industry changes quickly and we'll be left behind as usual.
$12.5k for YYZ guys over a year, pennies.
Pasco Standups: Apparently they would have been scheduled that way for us anyway, at least it's on paper and paid as OT. Shrug.

Diederik and Alexis were pretty adamant in stating there would be no new money for this contract and they'd just be moving it around, but there's apparently $10m extra for years 1-4 and $10m for year 5 to make this happen.

Feels like another wasted strike deadline. Either there's no blood to squeeze from the stone or the NC just isn't squeezing hard enough.

It seems like you’re okay with this TA? There’s very little new money in this compared to TA1. Flow is not a selling point.. look at jazz.

Stand ups will kill you slowly, no matter if they pay double time or more. This will be a great regret in a few months.

Not really, it's all the same flavour of shit with a few extra sprinkles. I just don't know how much the company is holding back.

[CaptDukeNukem]

And by the looks of it neither is the second deal.

This one might squeak in. But honestly it's nothing substantial and doesn't fix the big issues.

17 day plan is a step in the right direction, imo.
WSP is a little better, gives more incentive for FOs to upgrade, but is still behind CA1 and way behind everyone else in the WestJet group. Boo, hiss.
Flow numbers a little higher. Still going to be a long time to flow with a substantial paycut at WJA on current contracts. Doesn't fix the core career progression problems or penalize WJA for missing targets.
5 year term. Yuck. The industry changes quickly and we'll be left behind as usual.
$12.5k for YYZ guys over a year, pennies.
Pasco Standups: Apparently they would have been scheduled that way for us anyway, at least it's on paper and paid as OT. Shrug.

Diederik and Alexis were pretty adamant in stating there would be no new money for this contract and they'd just be moving it around, but there's apparently $10m extra for years 1-4 and $10m for year 5 to make this happen.

Feels like another wasted strike deadline. Either there's no blood to squeeze from the stone or the NC just isn't squeezing hard enough.

It seems like you’re okay with this TA? There’s very little new money in this compared to TA1. Flow is not a selling point.. look at jazz.

Stand ups will kill you slowly, no matter if they pay double time or more. This will be a great regret in a few months.

Not really, it's all the same flavour of shit with a few extra sprinkles. I just don't know how much the company is holding back.

Good to hear. Sprinkles always look good on donuts but actually taste like plastic. At least to me.

Cheers Mate

[flying4dollars]

Please for the love of god vote no to that TA. There is plenty of money for the company to invest in your group. I hope you realize it.

[planenuts]

Please for the love of god vote no to that TA. There is plenty of money for the company to invest in your group. I hope you realize it.

I agree....just keep watching in the next few weeks

[planenuts]

YYZ Base Closure
• Upon the effective date of the closure of the YYZ base, a YYZ based pilot may
elect to receive, in lieu of relocation expenses, the $12,500 lump sum
described in 23-1.01 d), without providing documentation.
o Payments will be made in twelve (12) monthly lump sum payments.



So, not a lump sum. Jesus. Come on. Who writes this garbage.

Also have fun with your standups in cranbrook.

That seems to be one of the recurring themes at Westjet.....any money they owe you (RRSP, WSP, TFSA) they seem to pay their share to you after one year and then they spread it out over the next year. On top of that they use the WSP as a way to tell everyone your the highest paid in the country while keeping your wage low. It's stupid.

[JBI]

It seems like you’re okay with this TA? There’s very little new money in this compared to TA1. Flow is not a selling point.. look at jazz.

Stand ups will kill you slowly, no matter if they pay double time or more. This will be a great regret in a few months.

Duke, I think you're a Porter pilot so this isn't aimed at you, but I do find it funny when pilots don't know their own contract. Encore's CA ALREADY permits stand-ups but with no extra pay. CA1 had it and the first TA had it. For the revised TA2, the NC/MEC gets double pay for already permitted stand-ups and everybody complains "what? stand-ups, ugh this is crap!!"

So, as always, not saying an Encore pilot should vote yes or no. I'm no longer at Encore. But pilots should start by reading their current contract first. This particular item is a gain with no concession.

[CaptDukeNukem]

It seems like you’re okay with this TA? There’s very little new money in this compared to TA1. Flow is not a selling point.. look at jazz.

Stand ups will kill you slowly, no matter if they pay double time or more. This will be a great regret in a few months.

Duke, I think you're a Porter pilot so this isn't aimed at you, but I do find it funny when pilots don't know their own contract. Encore's CA ALREADY permits stand-ups but with no extra pay. CA1 had it and the first TA had it. For the revised TA2, the NC/MEC gets double pay for already permitted stand-ups and everybody complains "what? stand-ups, ugh this is crap!!"

So, as always, not saying an Encore pilot should vote yes or no. I'm no longer at Encore. But pilots should start by reading their current contract first. This particular item is a gain with no concession.

Great point. Never thought of that. Stand ups suck in general. They should not be legal. Thanks JBI!

[C-GGGQ]

As someone who does not have standups in their contract, what is the definition of standup?

[braaap Braap]

As someone who does not have standups in their contract, what is the definition of standup?

aka Continuous duty aka Split. A duty period with less than minimum rest because the whole thing counts as 1 duty with a couple hours in a hotel/sleeping on the plane.

[C-GGGQ]

Oh nevermind I definitely have those

[CaptDukeNukem]

Oh nevermind I definitely have those

Lol. Everyone has those. The company always sugar coats them. Yea we will pay for for 2 days but it’ll take you 4.5 days to recover yourself from being awake at those hours.

There’s a simple solution, no standup, splits, continuous duty , etc

Personally I think it should be part of a mandatory PA prior to push back..

“Ladies and gentlemen, or them/they, we’re f@ck1ng tired cuz our company hasn’t let us go to a hotel room cuz it’s cheaper to do it this way. But it’s cool, cuz it’s legal, and the flight is mostly smooth, some pockets of light turb, also, the coffee makers don’t work so it’s best if you just close your eyes”

[co-joe]

YYZ Base Closure
• Upon the effective date of the closure of the YYZ base, a YYZ based pilot may
elect to receive, in lieu of relocation expenses, the $12,500 lump sum
described in 23-1.01 d), without providing documentation.
o Payments will be made in twelve (12) monthly lump sum payments.



So, not a lump sum. Jesus. Come on. Who writes this garbage.

Also have fun with your standups in cranbrook.

That seems to be one of the recurring themes at Westjet.....any money they owe you (RRSP, WSP, TFSA) they seem to pay their share to you after one year and then they spread it out over the next year. On top of that they use the WSP as a way to tell everyone your the highest paid in the country while keeping your wage low. It's stupid.

So the moving expenses double as a retention bonus. Crafty.

[mmm...bacon]

As someone who does not have standups in their contract, what is the definition of standup?

Usually takes the form of checkin at 21:30, fly to XYZ on the last flight of the evening ( arrive at 2330, say) crash in a hotel until 0500, first flight back to base, check out at 0800. So, 10:30 of duty split over the two calendar days.

[yvrgoods]

I personally loved CDs back in my Jazz days. Check in 7-8pm, fly for 1-2 hours. Hit a hotel for 6 hours and fly home. Burn two days of your month, get two days worth of credit and it's like you were never gone.

There's some great CDs out there that have 15-45 min long flights. People aren't just sitting in the plane, they do get hotel rest which is required to have a longer duty to make the CD work. I see this language as a positive to make sure it's not just a single duty period pay. The rest of the TA in general feels pretty shite but I imagine it will pass at like 55% or something. Encore MEC should have trusted their membership and the other ALPA carriers to have their back and walked.

[Flyboy736]

I personally loved CDs back in my Jazz days. Check in 7-8pm, fly for 1-2 hours. Hit a hotel for 6 hours and fly home. Burn two days of your month, get two days worth of credit and it's like you were never gone.

There's some great CDs out there that have 15-45 min long flights. People aren't just sitting in the plane, they do get hotel rest which is required to have a longer duty to make the CD work. I see this language as a positive to make sure it's not just a single duty period pay. The rest of the TA in general feels pretty shite but I imagine it will pass at like 55% or something. Encore MEC should have trusted their membership and the other ALPA carriers to have their back and walked.

Couple things to note- not all airlines give you hotels during those 6 hrs. It doesn't sound like Encore does and Sky Regional certainly didn't. You also must have been doing the senior CDs. I recall doing St. johns with 3 hrs scheduled time while 5 plus hrs were available I wasn't getting them! Lastly that 6 hrs is assuming everything is on sched. My days in Jazz that wasn't particularly the case especially in the winter ops

[yvrgoods]

I did in no particular order CDs to; YOW from YUL, YYJ/YCD/YXJ/YXT/YXY/SJC from YVR. The only one I felt was hard was YXY because it was a long flight home in the morning after only 4 hours in the hotel. The rest were pretty gravy.

What's the duty limitation now on a check in after 7pm that has duty into your WOCL? I imagine a CD these days with no hotel can't be much longer than 8-9 hours total duty. And that's no different than AC pilots doing an actual redeye from YVR to YUL or YHZ.

[C-GGGQ]

I personally loved CDs back in my Jazz days. Check in 7-8pm, fly for 1-2 hours. Hit a hotel for 6 hours and fly home. Burn two days of your month, get two days worth of credit and it's like you were never gone.

There's some great CDs out there that have 15-45 min long flights. People aren't just sitting in the plane, they do get hotel rest which is required to have a longer duty to make the CD work. I see this language as a positive to make sure it's not just a single duty period pay. The rest of the TA in general feels pretty shite but I imagine it will pass at like 55% or something. Encore MEC should have trusted their membership and the other ALPA carriers to have their back and walked.

Couple things to note- not all airlines give you hotels during those 6 hrs. It doesn't sound like Encore does and Sky Regional certainly didn't. You also must have been doing the senior CDs. I recall doing St. johns with 3 hrs scheduled time while 5 plus hrs were available I wasn't getting them! Lastly that 6 hrs is assuming everything is on sched. My days in Jazz that wasn't particularly the case especially in the winter ops

Isn’t “suitable rest facility” and “prone rest” a requirement for a split to be legal?