Is it that bad at AC for pilots? I mean food stamp bad!

[CaptDukeNukem]

What use is a "big" pay cheque 15 years from now when you miss the boat on investments, housing and don't own anything

Don’t forget… a big pay cheque on reserve

[CaptDukeNukem]

It's pretty bad, I'm supporting my family off of a HELOC and very quickly running out of money.

Sorry to hear that dude. Rates are high right now also. Hope you can make it work.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Do most people on food stamps pay 50 dollars a month to go to a gym?

Only the ones who have 3 hour sits at terminal 1 YYZ.

[Nick678]

I’m in a similar situation as Ash Ketchum, I’m eating through savings and I probably have a month or two left before I start borrowing.

I take responsibility knowing pay was bad coming here and I do have a high monthly mortgage (variable rate got me good) but I’m seriously debating going to a food bank. I would feel guilty going to one knowing I could debt finance myself longer but I hate debt. Thoughts on going to one?

If we do get back pay I could make a large donation back to the food bank.

I have two kids if that factors in

[Ash Ketchum]

It's pretty bad, I'm supporting my family off of a HELOC and very quickly running out of money.

Sorry to hear that dude. Rates are high right now also. Hope you can make it work.

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

[mmm...bacon]

I’m seriously debating going to a food bank. I would feel guilty going to one knowing I could debt finance myself longer but I hate debt. Thoughts on going to one?


I have two kids if that factors in

IIRC, that’s not without precedent? Something about a 727 oiler or f/o going to the food bank *in uniform* back in the day. I think that would certainly add a little moral weight to the pilots’ ask in bargaining.

WRT children - don’t even think about it - do what you need to do to keep a roof over your heads and food on the table. Making a big donation afterwards would be a solid move.

[newlygrounded]

I’m in a similar situation as Ash Ketchum, I’m eating through savings and I probably have a month or two left before I start borrowing.

I take responsibility knowing pay was bad coming here and I do have a high monthly mortgage (variable rate got me good) but I’m seriously debating going to a food bank. I would feel guilty going to one knowing I could debt finance myself longer but I hate debt. Thoughts on going to one?

If we do get back pay I could make a large donation back to the food bank.

I have two kids if that factors in

I'm not a financial advisor if pay does go up decently when the contract is renewed a CC balance transfer might be a good way to get a 0% interest loan?

[yanbra]

The best way to support ALPA negotiations (much better than a red lanyard): stop applying or accepting job offers with such poor working conditions.

[futboler14]

I’m a full time AC pilot.

I also work a second job.

[flying4dollars]

It really is that bad. If not for the fact that I'm single with no one to financially support, I'd be enduring financial stress/hardships like others who've posted here. Even as a single guy, I'm going into debt. If not for me holding an upgrade this summer, I'd likely be working a second job as well.

[Me262]

Porter and WJ will also react to the AC contract changes. When does the current WJ contract expire? It can also be amended by LOU.

I'm certainly not taking on debt to feed my family while commuting in the hopes that the new contract is decent. Also with a management team that holds their employees in such low regard.

I wish the best to those flying for AC, but it won't be me unless this is truly a world class contract. Copy and paste United, and converted to CAD.

There's a couple of my friends at AC who did take that gamble and plan to quit if the contract doesn't meet their expectations.

I’m sorry but a comment on how management holds the employees in such low regard can literally be placed as a comment on any airline in Canada. How did WJ management thank you for you employment, threats and demeaning emails. How are they dealing with all other groups.
Even Porter, they pay well but the quality of life doesn’t seem great according to some of their pilots, all waiting for the growing pains to stop.
We are all just cogs and they wouldn’t hesitate to replace us with a single pilot cockpit or drone pilots flying multiple missions per shift if it could be approved.

I don't know, Jazz management is pretty good IMO. Maybe I need more time to see the dark side if there's one. Too bad there's no defined benefit pension anymore. A defined benefit together with some decent pay (Porter E2 equivalent at least) and people wouldn't just use their time as a stepping stone only.

[cdnavater]

Porter and WJ will also react to the AC contract changes. When does the current WJ contract expire? It can also be amended by LOU.

I'm certainly not taking on debt to feed my family while commuting in the hopes that the new contract is decent. Also with a management team that holds their employees in such low regard.

I wish the best to those flying for AC, but it won't be me unless this is truly a world class contract. Copy and paste United, and converted to CAD.

There's a couple of my friends at AC who did take that gamble and plan to quit if the contract doesn't meet their expectations.

I’m sorry but a comment on how management holds the employees in such low regard can literally be placed as a comment on any airline in Canada. How did WJ management thank you for you employment, threats and demeaning emails. How are they dealing with all other groups.
Even Porter, they pay well but the quality of life doesn’t seem great according to some of their pilots, all waiting for the growing pains to stop.
We are all just cogs and they wouldn’t hesitate to replace us with a single pilot cockpit or drone pilots flying multiple missions per shift if it could be approved.

I don't know, Jazz management is pretty good IMO. Maybe I need more time to see the dark side if there's one. Too bad there's no defined benefit pension anymore. A defined benefit together with some decent pay (Porter E2 equivalent at least) and people wouldn't just use their time as a stepping stone only.

I’m not talking about middle management, I’m talking about the executive suite and if you really want to see what they think of you, pay attention during contract negotiations.
I agree with your statements, except no one in the private sector is giving DB pensions anymore, anyone who has one is grandfathered. Porter’s DC pension is lower than the Jazz DC, it might balance out because they are paid more however you are comparing the E2 pay scale, why?
We fly 76 and 78 seat aircraft, yes I realize the job is the same but corporations don’t care about that, they need seat revenue to pay for the cogs, if AC had to pay us the same as Porters E2, they would absolutely find a way to close us.
Since scope prevents us from operating bigger, they can’t spread out the higher wage, it would not make financial sense to keep us going. It’s part of the reason we got what we got, instead of what we negotiated.
Jazz now has around 450-500 pilots who are very likely just riding it out to retirement, the rest are either waiting for AC or building time for other jobs and the part of the list will be constantly recycled, can we staff 80 aircraft like that, I believe so.
That’s more than likely the plan they(executives) are working with, time will tell.

[DanWEC]

I’m in a similar situation as Ash Ketchum, I’m eating through savings and I probably have a month or two left before I start borrowing.

I take responsibility knowing pay was bad coming here and I do have a high monthly mortgage (variable rate got me good) but I’m seriously debating going to a food bank. I would feel guilty going to one knowing I could debt finance myself longer but I hate debt. Thoughts on going to one?

If we do get back pay I could make a large donation back to the food bank.

I have two kids if that factors in

You would find yourself in surprisingly similar company if you need to use it, and it's ok. That's what they're here for.

My wife is the board chair for a large food bank charity. Without any change in catchment area, their usage has gone up *300%* in the last 4 years and they can't keep up.
What's even more ludicrous is that 20% of the households in their CA, which encompasses a pretty average cross-section of the city, uses the food bank.
Their clientele isn't the destitute and homeless, but more frequently normal people as in your situation.
If you live in a large city (As you have to with our bases) have a house, 2 kids, and gross 58k on a single income you are absolutely in the food bank demographic now. It's ridiculous, but don't feel any shame. They don't ask questions. Most people show up in cars, normal clothes, etc.
During or after the fact, volunteering for a while would be desperately appreciated if you can't make a monetary donation.

What a ridiculous situation for pilots to be in however, but it's indicative of how far removed from reality our contracts are. Better be a lot of No votes coming up.

[thepoors]

It's pretty bad, I'm supporting my family off of a HELOC and very quickly running out of money.

Sorry to hear that dude. Rates are high right now also. Hope you can make it work.

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Sorry to hear that dude. Rates are high right now also. Hope you can make it work.

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

I'd add company shills & ACPA Reps liked saying that too

To the point that B1900 FOs now make more than 777 FOs. What a joke these guys are

[Tbayer2021]

Sorry to hear that dude. Rates are high right now also. Hope you can make it work.

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

[yvrgoods]

You’re not wrong but we also joined this airline when you could buy a house for $450k in the lower mainland BC.

This country has changed significantly and while 10 years ago I was ok with the conditions based on cost of living and how the figure looked, that’s not the case anymore. I 100% will consider going to Europe if I can. Do my exams while still at AC and use my dual citizenship to go fly somewhere in a nice but inexpensive country. Sure I’ll make less overall but life will be a lot less stressful.

It’s not just about the contract. It’s about the contract and where I see this country in another decade, and right now it’s not looking good as long as we keep pumping our immigration numbers without addressing infrastructure and housing.

It’s not just about me and my family. It’s about a healthy and well functioning society. If everyone is living paycheck to paycheck that isn’t really good for the country.

[Inverted2]

You’re not wrong. This country is a turd circling the toilet bowl run by the biggest turd of them all. If I was younger I’d be looking elsewhere too.

[Tbayer2021]

You’re not wrong but we also joined this airline when you could buy a house for $450k in the lower mainland BC.

This country has changed significantly and while 10 years ago I was ok with the conditions based on cost of living and how the figure looked, that’s not the case anymore. I 100% will consider going to Europe if I can. Do my exams while still at AC and use my dual citizenship to go fly somewhere in a nice but inexpensive country. Sure I’ll make less overall but life will be a lot less stressful.

It’s not just about the contract. It’s about the contract and where I see this country in another decade, and right now it’s not looking good as long as we keep pumping our immigration numbers without addressing infrastructure and housing.

It’s not just about me and my family. It’s about a healthy and well functioning society. If everyone is living paycheck to paycheck that isn’t really good for the country.

Ah yes, Europe. No country there is experiencing what Canada is going through........Pretty much every single country in the world, specially most of those that anyone would want to move to, is experiencing the same problems as Canada. Unchecked immigration? Check! Rampant inflation? Check! Skyrocketing property prices? Check! Many European countries have problems that even Canada doesn't have to deal with. Some places literally have Sharia police patrolling the streets and taking matters into their own hands when they see something they don't like. There is an argument to say that's where we're headed, but we're not quite there yet.

I've met a lot of people claiming they'd leave the country if X happens or doesn't. But the goal post always seems to get conveniently pushed back when the hypothetical trigger happens. Out of everyone I've ever met saying they'd leave or were looking into it, only one has actually done it. He moved his family back to Canada about 6 months later. A friend of my girlfriend moved to Spain for a masters and it didn't take long for her to start complaining that life there isn't quite what she thought it was going to be.

[vanislepilot]

.

[FNGYYZ]

I personally know several people that have left here for US airlines, corporate gigs or back to the military

US emigration is at a 10 yrs high. Pilots are commodity. Especially good ones.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadi ... -1.7218479

[Tbayer2021]

There are many pilots getting hired in their 20s at AC who simply will not put up with the same BS that was spun before. A lot are out there, wondering how the hell they can ever afford a family in this country. Many have been seeing companies like Singapore and Emirates dole out over half a years wages as a bonus tax free and each day some of those places seem more attractive. It seems like the contract has to come with a significant increase in pay and lifestyle improvements or I believe the younger generation won’t think twice about leaving

Its a bit hard to define isn't it? because what constitutes significant for you, will undoubtedly be different than someone else. With that logic, we can safely assume that if we don't see a significant exodus from AC after the new contract, we have to assume that most are happy with it and saw it as significant enough.

Do you have a number for what you consider significant? Do you need to see 50% increase across the board? 40%,30%, more than 50%?? Do you see it as more of a sliding scale where the largest percentage gains need to be seen at the bottom end, tapering towards the top? Everyone I see claiming they will leave if no significant gains are made ever seem to define what they consider significant.

[Tbayer2021]

I personally know several people that have left here for US airlines, corporate gigs or back to the military

US emigration is at a 10 yrs high. Pilots are commodity. Especially good ones.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadi ... -1.7218479

I think most or a very large number at least, would leave for the US if we could. But reality is that those making the move to the US still represent a very small number. I'd wager that all those you know that have left over the last 5 years, doesn't amount to a single month worth of new hires.

[RippleRock]

This talk about pilots leaving for the States, in relation to how well Canadian pilots are compensated is odd.

Crewing isn't our problem. AC never has an issue filling groundschools, and it NEVER will.

New hires are paid a fraction of what they are worth, and everyone else needs a 50% lift in the first year of the new contract to even keep their heads above water inflation-wise.

Paying the pilots properly is AC's problem as we have had enough. No more "low hanging fruit". ACPA is dead and so is their self defeating, "net-zero" horse trading for gains.

We will all get an uplift...OR NOT....based on how we behave during the next 90+ days. Don't forget it.


Enjoy your summer days off, and encourage your work associates to do the same. It won't be HARD for one summer, trust me. If we do that ALONE, we will not need to see a picket line. AC has crewed the airline far too thin out of greed, and they are 100% counting on VO hogs to keep the summer sked crewed.

If people put their own interests ahead of the collective, and chose to "line their own pockets with cash"......this will be a drawn out process.

For the record, we could have been done already, and you ALL could have been enjoying a healthy uplift NOW except for those "few"....who aren't so few.

This is my opinion only.

[digits_]

I’m in a similar situation as Ash Ketchum, I’m eating through savings and I probably have a month or two left before I start borrowing.

I take responsibility knowing pay was bad coming here and I do have a high monthly mortgage (variable rate got me good) but I’m seriously debating going to a food bank. I would feel guilty going to one knowing I could debt finance myself longer but I hate debt. Thoughts on going to one?

If we do get back pay I could make a large donation back to the food bank.

I have two kids if that factors in

You would find yourself in surprisingly similar company if you need to use it, and it's ok. That's what they're here for.

My wife is the board chair for a large food bank charity. Without any change in catchment area, their usage has gone up *300%* in the last 4 years and they can't keep up.
What's even more ludicrous is that 20% of the households in their CA, which encompasses a pretty average cross-section of the city, uses the food bank.
Their clientele isn't the destitute and homeless, but more frequently normal people as in your situation.
If you live in a large city (As you have to with our bases) have a house, 2 kids, and gross 58k on a single income you are absolutely in the food bank demographic now. It's ridiculous, but don't feel any shame. They don't ask questions. Most people show up in cars, normal clothes, etc.
During or after the fact, volunteering for a while would be desperately appreciated if you can't make a monetary donation.

What a ridiculous situation for pilots to be in however, but it's indicative of how far removed from reality our contracts are. Better be a lot of No votes coming up.

Is management ridiculous for offering that kind of pay in expensive cities, or are pilots ridiculous for accepting those salaries?

When self funded typeratings or pay 2 fly programs pop up on this forum, most of us vent our anger and disgust. Both towards the companies offering it, and the pilots accepting it. Now we have a situation where pilots go into debt for greater gains in the future. Sounds eerily similar...

Regarding the use of food banks... I think there's something ethically wrong if you use a food bank because you intentionally work at a low paying job which doesn't cover your mortgage and living costs... Almost all AC pilots on flat pay can go work at another company and make more money. Perhaps food banks should be reserved for people who don't have that alternative option available?