If I am willing to go anywhere in Canada, is there ANY job for a 180 hour pilot?

[Disnsis]

As a Frozen ATPL, CPL + MIFR student finishing an integrated course sometime later this year with a little over 180 hours, I am wondering how on earth do people that finish flight school with less than 200 hours, which is the minimum requirement for a single pilot high performance airplane type rating, get a job. I am willing to do any job anywhere in the country and even start on the ramp, but still.. Theoretically speaking, it would be illegal to fly a King Air, PC12, Beech 1900.
I have looked at all the job boards for the non-high performance aircraft, like the Piper Navajo. There are so little of them, and most start at 500 hours. Without being frustrated, I just don't understand how people go from the initial CPL to the minimum hours to get any job anywhere in the country.
For now, instructing seems at the only option. I have contacted 4 schools in the Montreal area, but none have answered. I have also visited 2 schools in person, and none showed interest, they said you can sign up to the waitlist and that's it. And still, even if you finish the instructor rating with about 210 hours, where is the guarantee for an instructing job?
Another possibility would be paying a few thousand dollars for block time, but without guarantee for any job.
I knew about this for a very long time and the closer I am to finishing my licence, the more desperate the situation seems. I have spoken to many airline pilots. Most say that their first job was somewhere remote in 703 or Medevac operation which for me seems unattainable.
All the schools in my area release their students with the same number of hours, 180 to 190. Very few get to 200.
I would appreciate any tips. Maybe I just don't understand something, but I don't know anyone from my school who got a job after graduating. They either went into another field and abandoned flying or went the instructor route which took them around a year after graduating to start working as an instructor.

[nohojob]

Every body who is working in this industry had to go through some hardships. If you're willing to move and go this instructor route, that shouldn't be a big problem.
Do your instructor rating and apply.
It is very different than showing up and saying : If I do my instructor rating with you, would you give me job?
Yes it could take a bit of time, however the rating is doable in 3 months if you are at it full time.

You can't expect a guaranteed job, that's not how it works unfortunately.

[digits_]

As a Frozen ATPL, CPL + MIFR student finishing an integrated course sometime later this year with a little over 180 hours, I am wondering how on earth do people that finish flight school with less than 200 hours, which is the minimum requirement for a single pilot high performance airplane type rating, get a job. I am willing to do any job anywhere in the country and even start on the ramp, but still.. Theoretically speaking, it would be illegal to fly a King Air, PC12, Beech 1900.
I have looked at all the job boards for the non-high performance aircraft, like the Piper Navajo. There are so little of them, and most start at 500 hours. Without being frustrated, I just don't understand how people go from the initial CPL to the minimum hours to get any job anywhere in the country.
For now, instructing seems at the only option. I have contacted 4 schools in the Montreal area, but none have answered. I have also visited 2 schools in person, and none showed interest, they said you can sign up to the waitlist and that's it. And still, even if you finish the instructor rating with about 210 hours, where is the guarantee for an instructing job?
Another possibility would be paying a few thousand dollars for block time, but without guarantee for any job.
I knew about this for a very long time and the closer I am to finishing my licence, the more desperate the situation seems. I have spoken to many airline pilots. Most say that their first job was somewhere remote in 703 or Medevac operation which for me seems unattainable.
All the schools in my area release their students with the same number of hours, 180 to 190. Very few get to 200.
I would appreciate any tips. Maybe I just don't understand something, but I don't know anyone from my school who got a job after graduating. They either went into another field and abandoned flying or went the instructor route which took them around a year after graduating to start working as an instructor.

Go on a road trip and drive (or fly) to the small 703 operators that are spread out around the country. Look for operators of Cessna 182s or 206s. Navajo operators often fly single pilot and require a bit of multi time. Those might not be attainable just yet.

[fish4life]

Use that 20 hours to get a float rating and build some time on floats. Talk to some operators and maybe work a dock for them while you get the rating and I bet you’ll have a flying job next spring or even get lucky this year if someone leaves for the airlines.

[Ruger Princess]

As a Frozen ATPL, CPL + MIFR student finishing an integrated course sometime later this year with a little over 180 hours, I am wondering how on earth do people that finish flight school with less than 200 hours, which is the minimum requirement for a single pilot high performance airplane type rating, get a job. I am willing to do any job anywhere in the country and even start on the ramp, but still.. Theoretically speaking, it would be illegal to fly a King Air, PC12, Beech 1900.
I have looked at all the job boards for the non-high performance aircraft, like the Piper Navajo. There are so little of them, and most start at 500 hours. Without being frustrated, I just don't understand how people go from the initial CPL to the minimum hours to get any job anywhere in the country.
For now, instructing seems at the only option. I have contacted 4 schools in the Montreal area, but none have answered. I have also visited 2 schools in person, and none showed interest, they said you can sign up to the waitlist and that's it. And still, even if you finish the instructor rating with about 210 hours, where is the guarantee for an instructing job?
Another possibility would be paying a few thousand dollars for block time, but without guarantee for any job.
I knew about this for a very long time and the closer I am to finishing my licence, the more desperate the situation seems. I have spoken to many airline pilots. Most say that their first job was somewhere remote in 703 or Medevac operation which for me seems unattainable.
All the schools in my area release their students with the same number of hours, 180 to 190. Very few get to 200.
I would appreciate any tips. Maybe I just don't understand something, but I don't know anyone from my school who got a job after graduating. They either went into another field and abandoned flying or went the instructor route which took them around a year after graduating to start working as an instructor.

I'm not sure I understand how you're getting released at 180 or 190. Is it because it's integrated? Because the MIN requirement for a TC approved CPL licence is 200 hrs. Full stop. You usually finish at 150 or so and then do 50 hours of build up. Sometimes more or less depending on a MIFR but you need 200 for CPL. Also the FI rating is another 20 on top. plus your 30 hrs of gs.

You could not legally work with 180 hrs because you're not licenced. Maybe the the IATPL is a diff thing but then I thought it was 800 or so of gs and you're locked in and still come out with 250 hrs with CPL/MIFR and so it wouldn't matter. I didn't do that route but I def know, nowhere in CANADA are you allowed a CPL before 200hrs. Even in Quebec <3

Also the Single HP rating is separate. As a PPL I could get one if I had the hours. Need the IATRA though. I knew a lot of PPLs that had HP aircraft and I had my IATRA before I finished my CPL ( just a few months before though) .

And there's a few King Air jobs our there/Dash jobs that will do your last 5 hours PPC IFR on their machines. Depends how much you're needed. When I got into aviation in 2007 - you wouldn't even look at a job until 500 and that was medevacs - or - FI if you wanted something right away and even then they preferred it with MIFR. Back then FOs only had .5 hr counted per flt so obviously instruction was the faster of the 2 for time building, at least to the ATPL. I ramped and then did Flight Following and Ops while I built hours.

Regardless, today is vastly different and so you should be easily good-to-go for work - but 100% 200 hrs is mandatory for CPL.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... ars#421_30

[Ruger Princess]

Huh. Looks like I was wrong. You really only do need 190 hrs under the CPL(A) course. but how would that translate into job finding? And also - wow. Less is more...I guess? At least you still need a CAT 1 - so I guess that's something.

Sheesh, crazy times.

[ICUP]

Getting your first gig is always tough. I would look into getting into the ramp with an operator that historically has hired internally. Some decent operators across the country have 'low-time programs' which is basically a seniority list of rampies with entry level requirements that get a shot at an interview and sim eval after working an x amount of time on the ramp. Your time on the ramp can vary greatly from operator to operator (from a few months to up to 3 years)

Some operators that have said programs...
Calm Air
Air North
North Cariboo Air
PAL Airlines
Pacific Coastal
CMA
Air Inuit
North Star Air
Wasaya
North Wright Airways
...

Good luck!

[Disnsis]

I'm not sure I understand how you're getting released at 180 or 190. Is it because it's integrated? Because the MIN requirement for a TC approved CPL licence is 200 hrs. Full stop.

Thank you for the answer. Actually the integrated ATPL course requirements are 205 hours of flight time of which 55 may be FTD, as per CARS 426.75 5) d)



Meaning you could technically finish at 150 hours.

[Disnsis]

Good luck!

Thank you everyone for answering! For now the most effective tactic available for me seems to do the instructor rating as fast as possible after finishing and then applying either to a small company or an instructing job.

[Ruger Princess]

I'm not sure I understand how you're getting released at 180 or 190. Is it because it's integrated? Because the MIN requirement for a TC approved CPL licence is 200 hrs. Full stop.

Thank you for the answer. Actually the integrated ATPL course requirements are 205 hours of flight time of which 55 may be FTD, as per CARS 426.75 5) d)



Meaning you could technically finish at 150 hours.

Lol. I did mention that in the second post. I was actually referring (initially to the IATPL - which is what we used to call it) and then talked about the CPL(A) integrated. I don't deal with that personally and I know it's out there but I'm still decently old school with a bit of freshness. Mind you I'm super 100% behind technology because that is the future but yeah, the CPL (A) threw me. Sorry for any confusion to ya!


Good luck bud! Alberta is a great place to fly!

[Ruger Princess]

Good luck!

Thank you everyone for answering! For now the most effective tactic available for me seems to do the instructor rating as fast as possible after finishing and then applying either to a small company or an instructing job.

Excel Flight Training out of CYQL is excellent! Roland did mine and he does NOT waste your time or money.

https://flywithexcel.com/

[Heavy Rayn]

To clarify some above info the IATRA is not necessary for HP aircraft. IATRA allows non ATPL’s to get a right seat type rating in a two crew aircraft. You do not need an IATRA to get a type on a king air, 1900, PC12, MU2 or anything of similar sorts. It is ONLY required for two crew aeroplanes. Many of the 703 operators who fly the above AC will still want to see it before they hire you as a demonstration of knowledge but it is not necessary at all unless you want to fly anything from a dash 8 and up without an ATPL.

Above advice is good though, get an instructor rating. Get some PIC time, try and knock off the ATPL requirements (night XC is a big one) and go from there.

[C-FDPB]

Get a float rating and try and apply to a company that has a small floatplane or two like a cub, 172, 180. They are often registered privately and I would assume you could build time on that and move up to the commercial craft once you have the time and experience and have an awesome summer or two or three of some of the most fun flying you'll ever have. You'll learn a lot more skills above and beyond flying as well, guaranteed.
Good luck!

[Ruger Princess]

To clarify some above info the IATRA is not necessary for HP aircraft. IATRA allows non ATPL’s to get a right seat type rating in a two crew aircraft. You do not need an IATRA to get a type on a king air, 1900, PC12, MU2 or anything of similar sorts. It is ONLY required for two crew aeroplanes. Many of the 703 operators who fly the above AC will still want to see it before they hire you as a demonstration of knowledge but it is not necessary at all unless you want to fly anything from a dash 8 and up without an ATPL.

Above advice is good though, get an instructor rating. Get some PIC time, try and knock off the ATPL requirements (night XC is a big one) and go from there.

Sorry bud! It is needed for HP aeroplanes. You can write at 50% of the required 250 hours (so 125 but need the 250 to have it become permanent.) Having said that - if you don't use it in 2 yrs, you have to rewrite. I know from personal experience lol.

Here's the CARs : https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... pe-ratings

Even gives you all the specific a/c that either for 2 crew or HP, is applicable. And agree with the X-night!! Do it NOW! Do any and all build up as night X-cntry and you're laughing come time for your ATPL.

But def 100% no ad I have seen for 2 crew does not ask for it or ATPL. So best to write the sucker and better to not need it than to need it and not have it.

[Ruger Princess]

Get a float rating and try and apply to a company that has a small floatplane or two like a cub, 172, 180. They are often registered privately and I would assume you could build time on that and move up to the commercial craft once you have the time and experience and have an awesome summer or two or three of some of the most fun flying you'll ever have. You'll learn a lot more skills above and beyond flying as well, guaranteed.
Good luck!

Esp in Quebec and Ontario!! Like LAKE CENTRAL!!! haha

[digits_]

To clarify some above info the IATRA is not necessary for HP aircraft. IATRA allows non ATPL’s to get a right seat type rating in a two crew aircraft. You do not need an IATRA to get a type on a king air, 1900, PC12, MU2 or anything of similar sorts. It is ONLY required for two crew aeroplanes. Many of the 703 operators who fly the above AC will still want to see it before they hire you as a demonstration of knowledge but it is not necessary at all unless you want to fly anything from a dash 8 and up without an ATPL.

Above advice is good though, get an instructor rating. Get some PIC time, try and knock off the ATPL requirements (night XC is a big one) and go from there.

Sorry bud! It is needed for HP aeroplanes.

You're wrong. It's not needed for HP aeroplanes in general. It's only needed if you want to be part of a multi crew operation on said aircraft. Yes some HP aircraft will require it because they require two crew, but it's not generally required on all HP aircraft.

Most (all?) King Airs, PC12s, Caravans and even some Metros don't need it when operated single pilot.

You can search for IATRA on this page to see when it's required:
https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... tions-cars

If you still disagree, kindly tell us which CAR we would be violating when flying a King Air single pilot without IATRA or ATPL.

[DanWEC]

The IATRA is only applicable to 2 crew operations. To get typed on anything else in the high perf regime just requires the requisite training.

It even stands for Intermediate Airline Type Rating.

[Ruger Princess]

To clarify some above info the IATRA is not necessary for HP aircraft. IATRA allows non ATPL’s to get a right seat type rating in a two crew aircraft. You do not need an IATRA to get a type on a king air, 1900, PC12, MU2 or anything of similar sorts. It is ONLY required for two crew aeroplanes. Many of the 703 operators who fly the above AC will still want to see it before they hire you as a demonstration of knowledge but it is not necessary at all unless you want to fly anything from a dash 8 and up without an ATPL.

Above advice is good though, get an instructor rating. Get some PIC time, try and knock off the ATPL requirements (night XC is a big one) and go from there.

Sorry bud! It is needed for HP aeroplanes.

You're wrong. It's not needed for HP aeroplanes in general. It's only needed if you want to be part of a multi crew operation on said aircraft. Yes some HP aircraft will require it because they require two crew, but it's not generally required on all HP aircraft.

Most (all?) King Airs, PC12s, Caravans and even some Metros don't need it when operated single pilot.

You can search for IATRA on this page to see when it's required:
https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... tions-cars

If you still disagree, kindly tell us which CAR we would be violating when flying a King Air single pilot without IATRA or ATPL.

Okay. I literally sent you the link to exactly the HP Individual Aeroplanes that is also required to have an IATRA with. It gives a list of ALL the 1 person HP a/c that is required to have the IATRA.

Did you look at the link because it is from the CARs, I just went further than your link to make it easier for you.

But if you still don't believe me, let me know! I'm redoing the IATRA after 6 yrs (2 of which expired so 4 without) and can most 100% def send you detailed info on the HP aircraft with MFC of 1 and VSO of 80kts and VNE of 250. But sure. Let me know! But before 23:40 UTC as I have martial art classes to teach and won't respond until well after 0330 UTC.

Cheers.

[Ruger Princess]

The IATRA is only applicable to 2 crew operations. To get typed on anything else in the high perf regime just requires the requisite training.

It even stands for Intermediate Airline Type Rating.

Lol.

[digits_]

Okay. I literally sent you the link to exactly the HP Individual Aeroplane Type Rating that is also required to have an IATRA with. It gives a list of ALL the 1 person HP a/c that is required to have the IATRA.

Your link https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... pe-ratings

is titled 'Standard 421 Appendix A: Aircraft Type Designator Tables includes Blanket and Individual Type Ratings - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs)'

Nowhere on that document does it mention an IATRA is required.

It's impossible to proof a requirement doesn't exist. So again, please quote which CAR requires you to hold an IATRA to fly a King Air single pilot. The King Air 200 for example, in your document, is listed as 2T for engines with a minimum crew of 1.

Why would you need an IATRA to fly this single pilot?

[Ruger Princess]

Okay. I literally sent you the link to exactly the HP Individual Aeroplane Type Rating that is also required to have an IATRA with. It gives a list of ALL the 1 person HP a/c that is required to have the IATRA.

Your link https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-servi ... pe-ratings

is titled 'Standard 421 Appendix A: Aircraft Type Designator Tables includes Blanket and Individual Type Ratings - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs)'

Nowhere on that document does it mention an IATRA is required.

It's impossible to proof a requirement doesn't exist. So again, please quote which CAR requires you to hold an IATRA to fly a King Air single pilot. The King Air 200 for example, in your document, is listed as 2T for engines with a minimum crew of 1.

Why would you need an IATRA to fly this single pilot?

Again - if you knew IATRA requirements (not my first rodeo) - you need it for any HP that has a VSO of 80 kts, a VNE of 250 kts and a MFC of 1. Obviously as well AS any 2 crew requiring just that.

CARs 400.01 (1)

As for company requirements other than if you have the money (and I have seen it!) to own your own BE 100/200/300. etc. then that is beyond me. That's probs for you to find out!

Ps. Also, in your own link under the "not" appendix - the 421.40 goes into the HP 1 crew etc etc.

[digits_]

Again - if you knew IATRA requirements (not my first rodeo) - you need it for any HP that has a VSO of 80 kts, a VNE of 250 kts and a MFC of 1. Obviously as well AS any 2 crew requiring just that.

CARs 400.01 (1)

So you keep claiming, but you fail to provide a quote.

Your reference is the list of definitions. which definition are you considering relevant for your statement?

high-performance aeroplane, with respect to a rating, means

(a) an aeroplane that is specified in the minimum flight crew document as requiring only one pilot and that has a maximum speed (Vne) of 250 KIAS or greater or a stall speed (Vso) of 80 KIAS or greater, or

That's the high performance airplane definition. It does not list anything about an IATRA.

As for company requirements other than if you have the money (and I have seen it!) to own your own BE 100/200/300. etc. then that is beyond me. That's probs for you to find out!

Ps. Also, in your own link under the "not" appendix - the 421.40 goes into the HP 1 crew etc etc.

421.40 requires the IATRA specifically for multi crew operations. NOT for single pilot operations.

It's mentioned as a knowledge requirement in:

421.40 (3) (a) Aeroplane - Two Crew, and
421.40 (3) (b) Aeroplane - Two Crew - Restricted to Cruise Relief Pilot Duties Only

but NOT in:

421.40 (3)
(c) High Performance Aeroplane
(i) Knowledge
An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for a high performance aeroplane shall have completed ground training on the aeroplane type.

(ii) Experience
An applicant shall have completed flight training and have acquired a minimum of 200 hours pilot flight time on aeroplanes.

(iii) Skill
Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the rating, an applicant shall have successfully completed a qualifying flight under the supervision of a Transport Canada Inspector or a qualified person qualified in accordance with CAR 425.21(7)(a).
(amended 1999/03/01)

[DanWEC]

The IATRA is only applicable to 2 crew operations. To get typed on anything else in the high perf regime just requires the requisite training.

It even stands for Intermediate Airline Type Rating.

Lol.

I'm also curious to see the reference that an IATRA is needed for a single pilot High Perf A/C.

Maybe it's is possible that there is some AC out there with an individually assessed requirement assigned to it, like the High perf designation for the MU2, but I've never heard of it.

If this is something an instructor told you once and it stuck, heck, that somewhat ambivalent discovery happens all the time, sometimes decades later. All good!

Screenshot_20240611_190000_Edge.jpg (362.12 KiB) Viewed 2140 times

[Ruger Princess]

You guys are painful.

No, most assuredly It's for both the 2 crew aircraft and for high performance aircraft that require a type certificate to fly. (Over 250 kts Vne, or a stall speed of over 80 kts).

Hence the single pilot a/c in the appendix.

but please feel free to call TC to prove me wrong! I have no problem admitting I am wrong even after years of having this or any other info because that's the great part of aviation. It changes all the time and evolves and no one will know everything ever.

maybe it's the wording. But 100% I am accurate.

I (after 3 classes which one included Can Ryu Jujitsu that I am preparing for my belt grading) double checked and triple checked because you're right, maybe I'm out to lunch.

but NOPE! HAHAHAHAHA Suckas!

Cheers Y'all!

[digits_]

Ask TC? Ok.

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/ ... 19-eng.pdf

TC's authorized person manual. See page 79-82 for the requirements to sign off multicrew typeratings and high performance type ratings. The results may surprise you...