Harbour Air Crash

[180]

Like I mentioned in my previous posts, if he saw him during the slide, it should have been a relatively straight forward 5 degree step turn to the right to continue his take off slide behind the boat.

Only he knows why he chose to go in that direction at that time?

But yes, certainly looks avoidable.

[N181CS]

Legally the plane has the right of way. The boat being more manoeuvrable could have done and 90 plus degree turn easily. Hard to tell what the pilot could see but I think he could have aborted fairly easily.

[180]

I don’t think that’s correct.

I think as long as a floatplane’s floats are touching the water, it’s considered a powered boat.

And when two powered boats are on a collision course, the boat to the starboard has right of way.

That power boat technically had the right of way over the departing Beaver.

[OneYonge]

Legally the plane has the right of way. The boat being more manoeuvrable could have done and 90 plus degree turn easily. Hard to tell what the pilot could see but I think he could have aborted fairly easily.

That's not right.

The boats are restricted to 5kts in that area but the floatplanes follow the same marine rules just like any other boat.

[viccoastdog]

Attachment is a screenshot of a marine chart app for Android. It shows the seaplane take off and landing area. Small vessels needing to access Coal Harbour are to go east and south of the area. Not all do. I doubt many small speed boats...and especially rental ones....have marine charts on board, nor are their operators likely familiar with them.

[altiplano]

It's marked on some publications like that, not all of the larger hydrographic surveys though.. but either way is it an exclusion zone or cautionary / advisory area. I think the latter. "Stay clear of aircraft." It doesn't appear well marked in the harbour itself.

But I'm having a hard time reconciling how the pilot was advised caution of the traffic in his departure clearance, said "check remarks", and started his slide anyway.

Just because you have right of way and a clearance doesn't mean push the throttle up.

[porcsord]

CAR 602.19 (10)

No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.

and then

Right of Way — Aircraft Manoeuvring on Water
602.20 (1) Where an aircraft on the water has another aircraft or a vessel on its right, the pilot-in-command of the first-mentioned aircraft shall give way.

(2) Where an aircraft on the water is approaching another aircraft or a vessel head-on, or approximately so, the pilot-in-command of the first-mentioned aircraft shall alter its heading to the right.

(3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft that is overtaking another aircraft or a vessel on the water shall alter its heading to keep well clear of the other aircraft or the vessel.

[B-rad]

.

[OneYonge]

Attachment is a screenshot of a marine chart app for Android. It shows the seaplane take off and landing area. Small vessels needing to access Coal Harbour are to go east and south of the area. Not all do. I doubt many small speed boats...and especially rental ones....have marine charts on board, nor are their operators likely familiar with them.

that’s not how that chart reads. It does mark the ldg/to area but that is not exclusive to seaplanes. Small vessels go in and out of there all the time. East of that would be where the Cruise ships and the seabus are maneuvering , south would be congested taxi area for seaplanes and the Hullo ferry.

[7ECA]

Boats are prohibited from the landing/takeoff area. But, marine rules have the seaplane at fault with the boat on the right side of the seaplane...

Shitty situation all around, regardless of what the arm chair lawyers have to say.

[digits_]

You know, driving your car into a lake is against the law…….and if that causes death…..much worse.

I can get an expensive ticket parking my car in front of a FIRE HYDRANT.

Just putting this out there.

Not saying this is definitely the case.

[rookiepilot]

You know, driving your car into a lake is against the law…….and if that causes death…..much worse.

I can get an expensive ticket parking my car in front of a FIRE HYDRANT.

Just putting this out there.

Not saying this is definitely the case.

You’re funny. That doesn’t kill anyone else, BTW. Got something constructive to add, Being a homegamer is useless to this thead, you know?

This sure looks like a tourist rental boat from Granville island. Tourists do stupid things. That should be expected by a professional pilot operating in that area, so whether the boat wasn’t allowed in that area is moot.

And if you want to get legal, the onus is always on the pilot.

CAR 602.19 (10)
No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.

[boeingboy]

I would argue whether he ever saw him or not. He was still pretty tail low in the water and the Beaver has a rather large cowl on it that doesn't lend well to great visibility when not on the step.

The other video:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W9eRTNNU6fQ

[OneYonge]

Boats are prohibited from the landing/takeoff area. But, marine rules have the seaplane at fault with the boat on the right side of the seaplane...

Shitty situation all around, regardless of what the arm chair lawyers have to say.

Boats are not prohibited from this area. They are only restricted to 5 knots.
Go to Vancouver and watch them, boats are there all the time. Perhaps they should carve out a boat lane like they do in Victoria Harbour, but there is no such thing in Vancouver Harbour.

[boeingboy]

Boats are prohibited from the landing/takeoff area. But, marine rules have the seaplane at fault with the boat on the right side of the seaplane...

Shitty situation all around, regardless of what the arm chair lawyers have to say.

Boats are not prohibited from this area. They are only restricted to 5 knots.
Go to Vancouver and watch them, boats are there all the time. Perhaps they should carve out a boat lane like they do in Victoria Harbour, but there is no such thing in Vancouver Harbour.

They have their own lane..... it's to the south
...and yes - they are prohibited.

[viccoastdog]

It's marked on some publications like that, not all of the larger hydrographic surveys though.. but either way is it an exclusion zone or cautionary / advisory area. I think the latter. "Stay clear of aircraft." It doesn't appear well marked in the harbour itself.

But I'm having a hard time reconciling how the pilot was advised caution of the traffic in his departure clearance, said "check remarks", and started his slide anyway.

Just because you have right of way and a clearance doesn't mean push the throttle up.

It does show on the large scale charts one SHOULD have for transiting the harbour. I only posted that to show some previous commentators about the seaplane take off and landing area. I am also flummoxed as to way the slide commenced, given the clear advisory given of the vessel.

[OneYonge]

Boats are prohibited from the landing/takeoff area. But, marine rules have the seaplane at fault with the boat on the right side of the seaplane...

Shitty situation all around, regardless of what the arm chair lawyers have to say.

Boats are not prohibited from this area. They are only restricted to 5 knots.
Go to Vancouver and watch them, boats are there all the time. Perhaps they should carve out a boat lane like they do in Victoria Harbour, but there is no such thing in Vancouver Harbour.

They have their own lane..... it's to the south
...and yes - they are prohibited.

No.
That’s not their lane. South of the ball is where the planes taxi. Boats would be more of a hazard loitering around there.

IMG_0744.jpeg (1.07 MiB) Viewed 3505 times

[tsgarp]

You know, driving your car into a lake is against the law…….and if that causes death…..much worse.

I can get an expensive ticket parking my car in front of a FIRE HYDRANT.

Just putting this out there.

Not saying this is definitely the case.

You’re funny. That doesn’t kill anyone else, BTW. Got something constructive to add, Being a homegamer is useless to this thead, you know?

This sure looks like a tourist rental boat from Granville island. Tourists do stupid things. That should be expected by a professional pilot operating in that area, so whether the boat wasn’t allowed in that area is moot.

And if you want to get legal, the onus is always on the pilot.

CAR 602.19 (10)
No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.

Will you both knock it off. You’re adding nothing.

[viccoastdog]

Boats are not prohibited from this area. They are only restricted to 5 knots.
Go to Vancouver and watch them, boats are there all the time. Perhaps they should carve out a boat lane like they do in Victoria Harbour, but there is no such thing in Vancouver Harbour.

They have their own lane..... it's to the south
...and yes - they are prohibited.

No.
That’s not their lane. South of the ball is where the planes taxi. Boats would be more of a hazard loitering around there.
IMG_0744.jpeg

That just shows the 5 knot speed limit geographical area and which vessels must comply. The description of the seaplane operating area is a further Port of Vancouver description and requirement..The attached Port of Vancouver publication shows the seaplane operating area, 5 knot and 10 knot speed limit areas, and various anchorages, amongst other things. All of these items are delineated on proper CHS charts and publications. Unfortunately they are on boat, so I can't post photos of them here right now.

[OneYonge]

They have their own lane..... it's to the south
...and yes - they are prohibited.

No.
That’s not their lane. South of the ball is where the planes taxi. Boats would be more of a hazard loitering around there.
IMG_0744.jpeg

That just shows the 5 knot speed limit geographical area and which vessels must comply. The description of the seaplane operating area is a further Port of Vancouver description and requirement..The attached Port of Vancouver publication shows the seaplane operating area, 5 knot and 10 knot speed limit areas, and various anchorages, amongst other things. All of these items are delineated on proper CHS charts and publications. Unfortunately they are on boat, so I can't post photos of them here right now.

yes thats what it shows. it shows that area Alpha is a seaplane operating area. but it is not exclusive for seaplane use. boats also transit through there all the time.
boats try to hug the edges to keep clear and avoid right smack in the middle as common courtesy.

[cncpc]

I would argue whether he ever saw him or not. He was still pretty tail low in the water and the Beaver has a rather large cowl on it that doesn't lend well to great visibility when not on the step.

The other video:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W9eRTNNU6fQ

Finally, somebody said it. Among a crowd of folks desperate to be wrong. You can't see dick out the front of a Beaver trying to get on the step. And the fella saying no flaps, that's the same thing an ex TSB inspector did yesterday.

[New Antique Pilot]

I would argue whether he ever saw him or not. He was still pretty tail low in the water and the Beaver has a rather large cowl on it that doesn't lend well to great visibility when not on the step.

The other video:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W9eRTNNU6fQ

Finally, somebody said it. Among a crowd of folks desperate to be wrong. You can't see dick out the front of a Beaver trying to get on the step. And the fella saying no flaps, that's the same thing an ex TSB inspector did yesterday.

I have looked at the video several times. I have to say that the flaps appear extended.

NAP

[Ruger Princess]

Where I grew up - with Lakeland Airways, we always respected the floats. Super huge hunting and fishing town in remote Northern Ontario and being on the lake (because my family were avid hunters, fishers, and boat ppl (like living in that environment is not enough - lets camp all summer too in even more remote areas - I did actually love it) but on the water even in power boats - you ALWAYS heard the engines of the floats. ALWAYS! And you knew to get the F$%# out of the way! And also everyone knew to hug the edges. Like there was a designated (albeit probs not on charts) float lane. When ppl came and rented boats even the houseboats, they were told and respected it.

I can't think of one time an accident happened. But Vancouver (having lived there and been on the wharf and having a fellow pilot who also sails - told me once that in that world, MAYDAY is called almost every day (a little exaggerated but you get the point). Like no respect for the seriousness of it.

Too bad this happened and 100% worse it was blamed on the pilot. Luckily no one died. But def more stringent rules for boaters needed.

[Panama Jack]

CAR 602.19 (10)

No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.

and then

Right of Way — Aircraft Manoeuvring on Water
602.20 (1) Where an aircraft on the water has another aircraft or a vessel on its right, the pilot-in-command of the first-mentioned aircraft shall give way.

(2) Where an aircraft on the water is approaching another aircraft or a vessel head-on, or approximately so, the pilot-in-command of the first-mentioned aircraft shall alter its heading to the right.

(3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft that is overtaking another aircraft or a vessel on the water shall alter its heading to keep well clear of the other aircraft or the vessel.

... and then, from the Collision Regulations https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... index.html

Interpretation
1 (1) The following definitions apply in these Regulations
[...]
seaplane includes any aircraft designed to manoeuvre on the water. (hydravion)
[...]


Application
3 (1) Subject to subsection (2), these Regulations apply in respect of
(a) [...]
(b) [...]
(c) every seaplane on or over Canadian waters.


Compliance
4 The following persons shall ensure that the applicable requirements of sections 5 and 6 and of the Rules set out in Schedule 1 are met:
(a) [...]
(b) the owner, the charterer and the operator of a pleasure craft or seaplane and the person in charge of a pleasure craft or seaplane; and
(c) [...].


Rule 18
Responsibilities between Vessels
Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:
(a) [...]
(b) [...]
(c) [...]
(d) [...]
(e) A seaplane on the water shall, in general, keep well clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation. In circumstances, however, where risk of collision exists, she shall comply with the Rules of this Part.
(f) [...]

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I've had float pilots say the worst thing is when the boat or canoe sees you and tries to avoid you, because you are now unpredictable. They said they best thing is to let the plane avoid you.