Dangerous Scheduling Practices

[afterburner&smoke]

Can't wait to hear all the Flair fairies argue about this one but here we go..

A good friend of mine just showed me the pairings he has to bid on for July and I can hardly believe what I'm looking at. His base for one, only has red eye pairings and ALL of them have repeat red eye TURNS 3 nights in a row split by minimum rest in a shit hotel. To add insult to injury, this being Flair you can guess whether or not they have complementary breakfast cause there's nothing like having done a yyz-yxx-yyz from 2000LT to 0700LT, being absolutely exhausted and having to pay 25$ + taxes for a shit holiday inn buffet. But I'm losing sight of the issue.

Couple years ago Flair had a runway overrun that they claim has nothing to do with fatigue, even though it happened on such an occasion. Looking at the absolutely horrible patterns they will operate in July, you'd think they're trying their best to see another accident. These are the worst schedules out there, worst then some cargo operators.

Flair boys and gals, come and join Air Canada or westjet.. Or even porter. They have tough scheduling but nothing of the sort you are looking at in July. And sure, your Chief Pilot and VP will tell you it's nothing they've done it in the middle East. But, they didn't do that sort of flying systematically for one, they had proper rest for two and they wouldn't go 5-7 days of all night flying with 3 of them nights in a row doing red eye turns. If they tell you so, call their BS. Sure, maybe it happened once or twice in their careers over there. Not all month long.

And you could fly red eyes at AC or westjet, but you'll fly a single leg somewhere, get some proper rest, enjoy the bunks if you're flying widebody and business class onboard meals. You also get stability.

3 things a pilot needs: QoL, stability and pay. Your employer should be ashamed if not appalled (on the off chance they "didn't know" about those pairings). You get neither the stability (obviously), nor the QoL with what is honestly the worst and most unsafe scheduling practices out there, and one could argue you don't even get the best pay. I'm here to argue that point day in day out with anyone willing to take me on.

So out of the 3 things a pilot needs, your left with maybe pay. Maybe. Good luck in July, hope you book off for yours and the company's sake before someone gets into an accident.

[Canadaflyer46]

Disgraceful. I hope every pilot books off fatigued at the gate before the second flight. I thought pairings like this had gone by the wayside with the new duty rules.

[digits_]

Could it be a management trick to hope pilots would quit to save on severance pay if they are planning further downsizing?

[the_new_guy]

Could it be a management trick to hope pilots would quit to save on severance pay if they are planning further downsizing?

Highly doubtful. But it definitely shows a complete disconnect from reality from management. If flight ops managers want to fly those pairings instead of the fun ferry flights back from Australia, they're more than welcome. I'd also sit the crew planners on the jumpseat for the 3 red eyes in a row.

Anyway, hopefully nothing bad happens but it's hard to believe the sort of pairings we're now seeing.

[lament]

"home every night" has become "flying every night, all night"

[VFS]

If you’re still at Flair, this is your own fault.

[Flairpilot]

Can't wait to hear all the Flair fairies argue about this one but here we go..

A good friend of mine just showed me the pairings he has to bid on for July and I can hardly believe what I'm looking at. His base for one, only has red eye pairings and ALL of them have repeat red eye TURNS 3 nights in a row split by minimum rest in a shit hotel. To add insult to injury, this being Flair you can guess whether or not they have complementary breakfast cause there's nothing like having done a yyz-yxx-yyz from 2000LT to 0700LT, being absolutely exhausted and having to pay 25$ + taxes for a shit holiday inn buffet. But I'm losing sight of the issue.

Couple years ago Flair had a runway overrun that they claim has nothing to do with fatigue, even though it happened on such an occasion. Looking at the absolutely horrible patterns they will operate in July, you'd think they're trying their best to see another accident. These are the worst schedules out there, worst then some cargo operators.

Flair boys and gals, come and join Air Canada or westjet.. Or even porter. They have tough scheduling but nothing of the sort you are looking at in July. And sure, your Chief Pilot and VP will tell you it's nothing they've done it in the middle East. But, they didn't do that sort of flying systematically for one, they had proper rest for two and they wouldn't go 5-7 days of all night flying with 3 of them nights in a row doing red eye turns. If they tell you so, call their BS. Sure, maybe it happened once or twice in their careers over there. Not all month long.

And you could fly red eyes at AC or westjet, but you'll fly a single leg somewhere, get some proper rest, enjoy the bunks if you're flying widebody and business class onboard meals. You also get stability.

3 things a pilot needs: QoL, stability and pay. Your employer should be ashamed if not appalled (on the off chance they "didn't know" about those pairings). You get neither the stability (obviously), nor the QoL with what is honestly the worst and most unsafe scheduling practices out there, and one could argue you don't even get the best pay. I'm here to argue that point day in day out with anyone willing to take me on.

So out of the 3 things a pilot needs, your left with maybe pay. Maybe. Good luck in July, hope you book off for yours and the company's sake before someone gets into an accident.

You are correct. Though I resent the flair fairy comment. We’ll get it under control, I suspect the amount of book offs will be staggering.

[afterburner&smoke]

Can't wait to hear all the Flair fairies argue about this one but here we go..

A good friend of mine just showed me the pairings he has to bid on for July and I can hardly believe what I'm looking at. His base for one, only has red eye pairings and ALL of them have repeat red eye TURNS 3 nights in a row split by minimum rest in a shit hotel. To add insult to injury, this being Flair you can guess whether or not they have complementary breakfast cause there's nothing like having done a yyz-yxx-yyz from 2000LT to 0700LT, being absolutely exhausted and having to pay 25$ + taxes for a shit holiday inn buffet. But I'm losing sight of the issue.

Couple years ago Flair had a runway overrun that they claim has nothing to do with fatigue, even though it happened on such an occasion. Looking at the absolutely horrible patterns they will operate in July, you'd think they're trying their best to see another accident. These are the worst schedules out there, worst then some cargo operators.

Flair boys and gals, come and join Air Canada or westjet.. Or even porter. They have tough scheduling but nothing of the sort you are looking at in July. And sure, your Chief Pilot and VP will tell you it's nothing they've done it in the middle East. But, they didn't do that sort of flying systematically for one, they had proper rest for two and they wouldn't go 5-7 days of all night flying with 3 of them nights in a row doing red eye turns. If they tell you so, call their BS. Sure, maybe it happened once or twice in their careers over there. Not all month long.

And you could fly red eyes at AC or westjet, but you'll fly a single leg somewhere, get some proper rest, enjoy the bunks if you're flying widebody and business class onboard meals. You also get stability.

3 things a pilot needs: QoL, stability and pay. Your employer should be ashamed if not appalled (on the off chance they "didn't know" about those pairings). You get neither the stability (obviously), nor the QoL with what is honestly the worst and most unsafe scheduling practices out there, and one could argue you don't even get the best pay. I'm here to argue that point day in day out with anyone willing to take me on.

So out of the 3 things a pilot needs, your left with maybe pay. Maybe. Good luck in July, hope you book off for yours and the company's sake before someone gets into an accident.

You are correct. Though I resent the flair fairy comment. We’ll get it under control, I suspect the amount of book offs will be staggering.

I see what you're saying. I should have been more targeted in my comment, not all Flair pilots were aimed at with my comment. Actually, a very minor part of your group was the intended target of that comment. You have my apology.

I hope august looks like a more sensible approach to flight patterns, because honestly if there's a plane that ends up in the grass at the end of the runway again, that could mean the end of your company. Some here may wish to see Flair go under, I for one don't.

[co-joe]

You are correct. Though I resent the flair fairy comment. We’ll get it under control, I suspect the amount of book offs will be staggering.

I chose to reply to this and not the name calling attack of a homophobic nature that OP seems to favor.

The problem with book offs, is that after LOU 5, Flair pilots are not credit or pay protected for booking off sick or fatigued. By accepting this garbage LOU masquerading as a pay raise, we now personally bear the financial burden of booking off.

[QKZXKV]

You are correct. Though I resent the flair fairy comment. We’ll get it under control, I suspect the amount of book offs will be staggering.

I chose to reply to this and not the name calling attack of a homophobic nature that OP seems to favor.

The problem with book offs, is that after LOU 5, Flair pilots are not credit or pay protected for booking off sick or fatigued. By accepting this garbage LOU masquerading as a pay raise, we now personally bear the financial burden of booking off.

[twa22]

You are correct. Though I resent the flair fairy comment. We’ll get it under control, I suspect the amount of book offs will be staggering.

I chose to reply to this and not the name calling attack of a homophobic nature that OP seems to favor.

The problem with book offs, is that after LOU 5, Flair pilots are not credit or pay protected for booking off sick or fatigued. By accepting this garbage LOU masquerading as a pay raise, we now personally bear the financial burden of booking off.

LOL what? I don't get it, so what are sick days for then?

And if what you're saying is true, you basically just proved why the pairing construction was done the way it was... Because it doesn't hurt anyone but the pilots booking off... It only starts hurting if reserve call outs also decline, and then a flight gets cancelled due to lack of crew, which may very well happen

[Canadaflyer46]

You are correct. Though I resent the flair fairy comment. We’ll get it under control, I suspect the amount of book offs will be staggering.

I chose to reply to this and not the name calling attack of a homophobic nature that OP seems to favor.

The problem with book offs, is that after LOU 5, Flair pilots are not credit or pay protected for booking off sick or fatigued. By accepting this garbage LOU masquerading as a pay raise, we now personally bear the financial burden of booking off.

Mic drop. I would never wish a friend or colleague to be out of a job, but I hope for all of your sake that Flair is wrapped up sooner rather than later. Before fatigued pilots desperate to pay their bills cost anyone their lives. I don't know what any of you are still doing there in all honesty.

[ready]

You get 4 hours credit for a sick day, same as before LOU 5… and your protected to MMG

[Michel Myers]

You get 4 hours credit for a sick day, same as before LOU 5… and your protected to MMG

Exactly
Why so many people and now flair pilots continue to lie on this forum is concerning.
This co-Joe character is so butt hurt about the latest Lou (which I voted no also) he posts an easily debunked lie on a public forum

Sick day credit was not changed at all because of this LOU

[twa22]

You get 4 hours credit for a sick day, same as before LOU 5… and your protected to MMG

Exactly
Why so many people and now flair pilots continue to lie on this forum is concerning.
This co-Joe character is so butt hurt about the latest Lou (which I voted no also) he posts an easily debunked lie on a public forum

Sick day credit was not changed at all because of this LOU

I was gonna say this sounds like one those co-joe things, like a few years back when he said Flair carries the second highest amount of pax out of YUL (or something along those lines )

[oldcoldandtired]

He's not entirely wrong.

Let's say you're at 85hrs for the month(or more) which would be a realistic average block and you sleep like crap during the day in the terrible hotel and need to book off for that nights' red-eye turn (typically check in 7-8pm, back at 7-8am) for a duty which is credited at 9-10hrs. If you book off sick or fatigued, you would only get 4hrs credit for the sick or fatigue day, so you'd go from 9-10 credits for that duty, down to 4. This would bring your monthly credit to around 80. For a captain at around $220.hr this loss of 5-6hrs is a loss of $1100-1300 for ONE BOOK OFF. There is no credit protection at Flair, aside from day-of changes.

I don't see how it's legal, let alone safe to financially disincentivize a pilot to book off tired or fatigued or whatever you want to call it and frankly I cannot believe Transport is not all over this.

Conditions at Flair are circling the bowl and I would seriously caution anyone considering coming here to talk to current pilots and read the CBA and it's LOUs a few times and ask question about how they're implemented. Lot's of false promises and "we're working on its"

[ready]

That’s what MMG is all about. Honest question as I don’t know the answer… Do all the other airlines in Canada give you your full credit if you call in sick?

[Canadaflyer46]

That’s what MMG is all about. Honest question as I don’t know the answer… Do all the other airlines in Canada give you your full credit if you call in sick?

Yes. I haven’t heard of any airline not doing this. It’s an incredibly dangerous practice to deduct pay for sick/fatigue book offs. I think the only reason Transport isn’t all over them is because they know they’re gonna be shutting down right away.

[flying4dollars]

That’s what MMG is all about. Honest question as I don’t know the answer… Do all the other airlines in Canada give you your full credit if you call in sick?

Yes

[co-joe]

You get 4 hours credit for a sick day, same as before LOU 5… and your protected to MMG

Exactly
Why so many people and now flair pilots continue to lie on this forum is concerning.
This co-Joe character is so butt hurt about the latest Lou (which I voted no also) he posts an easily debunked lie on a public forum

Sick day credit was not changed at all because of this LOU

Straight to personal insults with you idiots. 10 hours credit - 4 hours guaranteed credit = A LOSS OF 6 HOURS OF PAY for booking off sick.

Do you speak math?

[co-joe]

He's not entirely wrong.

... this loss of 5-6hrs is a loss of $1100-1300 for ONE BOOK OFF. There is no credit protection at Flair, ...

Never let the truth stand in the way of your desire to throw insults at the people behind comments you don't understand though. It's the Avcanada way.

[cdnavater]

You get 4 hours credit for a sick day, same as before LOU 5… and your protected to MMG

Exactly
Why so many people and now flair pilots continue to lie on this forum is concerning.
This co-Joe character is so butt hurt about the latest Lou (which I voted no also) he posts an easily debunked lie on a public forum

Sick day credit was not changed at all because of this LOU

Straight to personal insults with you idiots. 10 hours credit - 4 hours guaranteed credit = A LOSS OF 6 HOURS OF PAY for booking off sick.

Do you speak math?

So, for clarity, you get sick days and each sick day is only worth 4 credit? A single day book off uses a “sick day” regardless of how much credit your flying was supposed to be? How many sick days per year?
I’m trying to wrap my head around this, at Jazz we are awarded 85 credits into our sick bank on January 1st, this is equivalent to a month of sick time, however if you book off on high credit pairings every couple months you could use up your sick bank faster.
This seems quite ludicrous and certainly is incentive for a pilot to work sick!

[daedalusx]

For all of its flaws in other areas, I always felt like Jazz sick bank system was the right way to go for an airline.

[QKZXKV]

You get 4 hours credit for a sick day, same as before LOU 5… and your protected to MMG

Exactly
Why so many people and now flair pilots continue to lie on this forum is concerning.
This co-Joe character is so butt hurt about the latest Lou (which I voted no also) he posts an easily debunked lie on a public forum

Sick day credit was not changed at all because of this LOU

Straight to personal insults with you idiots. 10 hours credit - 4 hours guaranteed credit = A LOSS OF 6 HOURS OF PAY for booking off sick.

Do you speak math?

[Falcon1530]

That’s what MMG is all about. Honest question as I don’t know the answer… Do all the other airlines in Canada give you your full credit if you call in sick?

Yes

Book offs at Porter are not credit protected and you’ll only get 4 credits per book off.