-42 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:02 pm
Wow. I figured the “work for free” and “pay your own training” only applied to the aircraft fondlers but I stand corrected. Elon obviously has his own cult all falling in line nice and pretty with the “can do” attitude. Pathetic honestly but just ripe for abuse. I don’t know what else to say but enjoy.
Pretty sure this is the same guy making a career change to aviation in his 40s reassuring himself publicly that he’s right and the masses with decades of experience in aviation are wrong. Automotive is a less desirable trade these days but way more diverse in wage depending where you go. Heavy Duty is where the money is, that or welding.
Yeah,you described exactly who he is. Whatever, he will find out but he will never admit he effed up.
Plenty of those I've seen over the 31 years in this shit
If you have an hour to burn, this is a good listen. It's two automotive mechanics talking with an aircraft mechanic. It's American based, but from the automotive side it's the same as Canada. https://youtu.be/uXC2gnwpiAg?si=EFf42eFThsVDj-Wo
first of all, AME (also called A&P/IA in the US) is a non red seal skill-trades profession. You go to a community college for 2 years for a diploma and not 2 years in a university for an associate's degree. Why were they interviewing someone in this podcast who has a higher education (an AMT associate's degree) and works on research specializing in hydraulic systems to represent us AMEs who work on maintenance? The thing is her educational credentials offer her a wider array of career opportunities, including design, research, development, and management, something that is not available to us with our educational background.
Also the things she talked about regarding maintenance procedures are all applicable to our work. The benefit of going to school before your apprenticeship is you get to be familiarized with and learn how to do all these things from school.
No, I don't think the podcast talked about the state of the industry or offer her own perspective of the profession. She talked about things regarding maintenance that we all learned from school, which may be new information to you but not to us.
Let me give you my perspective as a former licensed AME in Canada. You hear me complain about the same things before! It is a profession that is over-recognized but not worth doing due to poor pay and terrible lifestyle! Definitely we are being underpaid for the amount of expenses and responsibilities we get to the point that our wage and this whole job is just unreasonable! I would agree that this job are just for suckers for punishment! I left years ago and I would not be going back! It's just torment! As a non top out AME, I just found it hard to make a living doing this job that other jobs that have no educational requirement certainly pay more! It's a terrible career path for one to make it a main source of living! Nobody here would recommend this profession to anybody after everything they went through!
RLK wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:10 pm
Do not try to skip years or try to cheat the system, it will only hurt you. As you progress through the apprenticeship program, every year that you pass, the expectations increase. Your skill level has to match the level that you are in. Let's say you skip first year and get hired on as a second year. I give you a set a keys and tell you to put the vehicle on the lift, connect Tesla Toolbox, put the vehicle in service mode, and disconnect the HV system. Do you know how to do that? You should, you are a second year apprentice.
It is going to take you a decade before you start seeing success. Show up every day with a good attitude, be a learning sponge. Do all of the online/classroom Tesla training you can, if you don't, you will not advance. This is a trade of passion, not wealth.
I was on my second year of apprenticeship. What I found out about the industry is it has a big barrier to entry. If you are going to pursue this career, you have to spend a lot of money in it, and as you say, it's going to take more than a decade before you start seeing success. People do not succeed in this career path because of it's high expenses and they end up starving themselves to death with the low pay before they can begin to make decent money. You miss one thing, please talk about the never-ending requirement for tools and how expensive and cumbersome it is!
I know Aviation is terrible, but if you are thinking of switching to AST from AME, it's not worth the effort because both are sh*t! Pursue something else that pays better if you want to get out of Aviation!
RLK wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:10 pm
Do not try to skip years or try to cheat the system, it will only hurt you. As you progress through the apprenticeship program, every year that you pass, the expectations increase. Your skill level has to match the level that you are in. Let's say you skip first year and get hired on as a second year. I give you a set a keys and tell you to put the vehicle on the lift, connect Tesla Toolbox, put the vehicle in service mode, and disconnect the HV system. Do you know how to do that? You should, you are a second year apprentice.
It is going to take you a decade before you start seeing success. Show up every day with a good attitude, be a learning sponge. Do all of the online/classroom Tesla training you can, if you don't, you will not advance. This is a trade of passion, not wealth.
I was on my second year of apprenticeship. What I found out about the industry is it has a big barrier to entry. If you are going to pursue this career, you have to spend a lot of money in it, and as you say, it's going to take more than a decade before you start seeing success. People do not succeed in this career path because of it's high expenses and they end up starving themselves to death with the low pay before they can begin to make decent money. You miss one thing, please talk about the never-ending requirement for tools and how expensive and cumbersome it is!
I know Aviation is terrible, but if you are thinking of switching to AST from AME, it's not worth the effort because both are sh*t! Pursue something else that pays better if you want to get out of Aviation!
I think barriers to succeed is actually a good topic.
Collecting automotive tools is a hard aspect of the trade. Many get suckered in on the tool trucks to buy a bunch of stuff they do not need at like 20% interest. I bought lots of tools from princess auto, and ebay. Amazon wasn't really a thing back then. If I wore out or broke the cheap Chinese tool, I would replace it with a quality one. I probably spent like 5-10 grand a year for many years. Now all of my tools are paid off, I have everything I need. I spend maybe a few hundred a year maintaining them. It sucks, but I don't see too many leave the trade over it. I got invited to a Rivian recruitment webinare thing. Apparently Rivian supplies every tool you need, I'm actually not sure how I feel about that. I kinda like having my own tools.
I find the biggest thing that pushes people out of automotives is the inability to meet production expectations. Each bay has to produce a minimum of 8 hours a day. If not the business runs out of money. You are expected to function at like 150%, you are required to bill like 12 hours in a 8 hour shift. A vehicle that was built in 2010 is very different than one built in 2020. They have different systems, logic, technology. If you don't understand how it works, you cannot fix it. Everyone from apprentices to very experienced Journeyman have very high production expectations and it is pushing a lot of talent out of the trade.
Let's say I take an apprentice AME position at a airline. Outside of night shift and some cunty management, what would some of my barriers to succeed be?
I graduated 10 years ago so obviously I am not the most experienced around here. If you want to go the airline route, you need to work towards an M2 license (M2 is a category of aircrafts that are big and not small piston or small turboprop aircrafts). 10 years ago, the challenge we had is the lack of opportunity for getting into this industry as a fresh graduate. For such a small industry, they produced too much graduates and these community colleges kept on producing more and more every year. Available job openings for AME Apprentice were scarce back then because as much as possible, they don't want to hire unlicensed apprentices. This is why majority of the people who graduated from this program ended up not doing it. The situation is different now as the industry is currently experiencing a shortage. Now would be the perfect time to get in but it's not attracting applicants because the industry is just not attractive! Aviation is a very demanding job, job security is just terrible, it pays sh*t, you get a lot of liabilities once you start to do ACA work, and the job just have a lot of associated expenses. Is this something one would aspire to be once they figured these out? Another thing that prevented people from succeeding aside from the lack of opportunity is the demanding nature of the job. Just look at the job offers, look at the pay, and look at what they are demanding! It's not doable with this kind of pay, and because of that, they turn down the offer!
I would not take someone down for wanting at any point to change direction however I have a problem with the “get er done” mentality out there and especially with the “work for free” people. I never in any “career” paid for training or studied on my own time. This is Canada FFS. You should not have to submit to indentured servitude to make a decent living. Give me a break.
-42 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:02 pm
Wow. I figured the “work for free” and “pay your own training” only applied to the aircraft fondlers but I stand corrected. Elon obviously has his own cult all falling in line nice and pretty with the “can do” attitude. Pathetic honestly but just ripe for abuse. I don’t know what else to say but enjoy.
Pretty sure this is the same guy making a career change to aviation in his 40s reassuring himself publicly that he’s right and the masses with decades of experience in aviation are wrong. Automotive is a less desirable trade these days but way more diverse in wage depending where you go. Heavy Duty is where the money is, that or welding.
I would think an anonymous forum is not very public.
There are a few members here that absolutely piss on anyone that displays a slight amount of positivity. I don't feel that it is appropriate to take career advice from someone who is so bitter/jaded, and tries their best to deflate ambition. I hope these people find some happiness in their lives.
-42 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:02 pm
Wow. I figured the “work for free” and “pay your own training” only applied to the aircraft fondlers but I stand corrected. Elon obviously has his own cult all falling in line nice and pretty with the “can do” attitude. Pathetic honestly but just ripe for abuse. I don’t know what else to say but enjoy.
Pretty sure this is the same guy making a career change to aviation in his 40s reassuring himself publicly that he’s right and the masses with decades of experience in aviation are wrong. Automotive is a less desirable trade these days but way more diverse in wage depending where you go. Heavy Duty is where the money is, that or welding.
It’s unfortunate about your feelings, I however rely on facts and a clear thought process. I am still in aviation, and after the decades I’ve been at it I (like several others on this PUBLIC forum) have a very good pool of information to draw from.
What most on here are posting is a very clear image of what Canadian aviation is, and unfortunately, a lot isn’t very good and is getting much worse. I am one that made the changes necessary to keep in it and make a good living, but it came at a HUGE cost in time away from home, personal expense, as well as all of the inherent personal life sacrifice. There is sacrifice in every pathway in life, no question, but the demand from Canadian aviation takes the cake (for several reasons discussed ad nauseam on this site).
Most of us would spare others the hard knocks by posting our experiences for the lesser informed/naive,to help make a decision whether to pursue this trade or not. You clearly don’t understand the difference between the unfortunate realities I and others post and being jaded/embitterment. One way or another as someone already said, you’ll find out sooner or later. Nobody is out to “deflate ambition” but it’s wise to be better informed before wasting time and effort.
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Last edited by Bug_Stomper_01 on Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RLK wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:10 pm
Do not try to skip years or try to cheat the system, it will only hurt you. As you progress through the apprenticeship program, every year that you pass, the expectations increase. Your skill level has to match the level that you are in. Let's say you skip first year and get hired on as a second year. I give you a set a keys and tell you to put the vehicle on the lift, connect Tesla Toolbox, put the vehicle in service mode, and disconnect the HV system. Do you know how to do that? You should, you are a second year apprentice.
It is going to take you a decade before you start seeing success. Show up every day with a good attitude, be a learning sponge. Do all of the online/classroom Tesla training you can, if you don't, you will not advance. This is a trade of passion, not wealth.
I was on my second year of apprenticeship. What I found out about the industry is it has a big barrier to entry. If you are going to pursue this career, you have to spend a lot of money in it, and as you say, it's going to take more than a decade before you start seeing success. People do not succeed in this career path because of it's high expenses and they end up starving themselves to death with the low pay before they can begin to make decent money. You miss one thing, please talk about the never-ending requirement for tools and how expensive and cumbersome it is!
I know Aviation is terrible, but if you are thinking of switching to AST from AME, it's not worth the effort because both are sh*t! Pursue something else that pays better if you want to get out of Aviation!
I think barriers to succeed is actually a good topic.
Collecting automotive tools is a hard aspect of the trade. Many get suckered in on the tool trucks to buy a bunch of stuff they do not need at like 20% interest. I bought lots of tools from princess auto, and ebay. Amazon wasn't really a thing back then. If I wore out or broke the cheap Chinese tool, I would replace it with a quality one. I probably spent like 5-10 grand a year for many years. Now all of my tools are paid off, I have everything I need. I spend maybe a few hundred a year maintaining them. It sucks, but I don't see too many leave the trade over it. I got invited to a Rivian recruitment webinare thing. Apparently Rivian supplies every tool you need, I'm actually not sure how I feel about that. I kinda like having my own tools.
I find the biggest thing that pushes people out of automotives is the inability to meet production expectations. Each bay has to produce a minimum of 8 hours a day. If not the business runs out of money. You are expected to function at like 150%, you are required to bill like 12 hours in a 8 hour shift. A vehicle that was built in 2010 is very different than one built in 2020. They have different systems, logic, technology. If you don't understand how it works, you cannot fix it. Everyone from apprentices to very experienced Journeyman have very high production expectations and it is pushing a lot of talent out of the trade.
Let's say I take an apprentice AME position at a airline. Outside of night shift and some cunty management, what would some of my barriers to succeed be?
I have colleagues in the airline biz and you can expect to be on nights for the next 15-20 years with how they organize seniority. If someone from the airlines is reading this please correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I’ve heard at most of the majors in recent years. Barriers will be low pay, high cost of living (major cities), you’ll need a RAIC, so you’ll have to pass that check, and of course you’ll be competing with a lot of others trying to advance to day shift. That’s all I’ve heard
ludivicchua wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:04 am
first of all, AME (also called A&P/IA in the US) is a non red seal skill-trades profession. You go to a community college for 2 years for a diploma and not 2 years in a university for an associate's degree. Why were they interviewing someone in this podcast who has a higher education (an AMT associate's degree) and works on research specializing in hydraulic systems to represent us AMEs who work on maintenance? The thing is her educational credentials offer her a wider array of career opportunities, including design, research, development, and management, something that is not available to us with our educational background.
Also the things she talked about regarding maintenance procedures are all applicable to our work. The benefit of going to school before your apprenticeship is you get to be familiarized with and learn how to do all these things from school.
No, I don't think the podcast talked about the state of the industry or offer her own perspective of the profession. She talked about things regarding maintenance that we all learned from school, which may be new information to you but not to us.
Let me give you my perspective as a former licensed AME in Canada. You hear me complain about the same things before! It is a profession that is over-recognized but not worth doing due to poor pay and terrible lifestyle! Definitely we are being underpaid for the amount of expenses and responsibilities we get to the point that our wage and this whole job is just unreasonable! I would agree that this job are just for suckers for punishment! I left years ago and I would not be going back! It's just torment! As a non top out AME, I just found it hard to make a living doing this job that other jobs that have no educational requirement certainly pay more! It's a terrible career path for one to make it a main source of living! Nobody here would recommend this profession to anybody after everything they went through!
Your posts are pretty resonant with any young ames I know that went to the airlines to get out of helicopters. None of them lasted for all of the reasons you’ve so eloquently cited lol
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:44 pm
you’ll need a RAIC, so you’ll have to pass that check
If I remember correctly, it took me a year to be approved of purple pass (permanent RAIC). When you are new, they'll issue you a yellow pass (a temporary pass) which is not hard to get. It means you are an escort and you need someone with a RAIC to escort you to restricted areas at all times. A RAIC is valid for 5 years. If it takes this long to be approved, you gonna renew your RAIC a year early before expiration or you have to go yellow.
You need a graduated driver's license and your own transportation (a car) to access the hangar. If you want to be an AME, this is a must!
This job just demands a lot from you and you get paid sh*t! I'm at a point where I can't do this job because of the sh*tty pay! Since I'm not as invested as much as the experienced people here, I decided to leave years ago! There are more opportunities in the industry now which was a challenge back then, but the pay didn't changed at all! This job is not doable with this pay when you also have to account the rising cost of living!
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Last edited by ludivicchua on Thu Feb 01, 2024 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
RLK wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 2:23 pm
I find the biggest thing that pushes people out of automotives is the inability to meet production expectations.
Exactly! You are always pressured by time! It's also a terrible environment to learn!
I tried it to see what it is, and it's not for me! For me, I am motivated by money since it is an essential and primary thing that we have to work for to survive. It's not there and the work is just difficult! I left because the job is not doable with the pay and ofcourse the production expectation that I'm not even confident that I can live up to. It's not what I need to do, it's not what I want to do.
If you pursue your passion for a living, you are not going to like what you do. First and foremost, you have to make money to survive. How can you do that when you're not even being paid enough to do the job? It's exactly the problem I have with Aviation!
Expect less, pay less. But if you are going to expect a lot more and pay the same, that is not a doable job! How can you do something that you are given lack of resources for to be able to do? You get what I mean? Cost and low pay is a barrier to entry with these jobs! I know someone who graduated from George Brown College for IT and got a job that pays decently with nowhere the expenses we get in our respective industries. You have to put up with all these bull sh*t because you put yourself in it in the first place!
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Last edited by ludivicchua on Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
RLK wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:10 pm
This is a trade of passion, not wealth.
Aviation will love you with that mindset. You are their dream person
The fact that he’s saying that as a new to industry learner is just so sad, and I’m sure he’s repeating that from somewhere/one else. If he organically produced that thought there are several companies that will take him for a cornucopia of carrots dangling. Where he gets that idea I have no clue, I know lots in the rotary and fixed wing sides of industry and I can say for certain the majority do like their trade, but hate what the industry (in Canada) has become.
It is a career of personal development and needs to remunerate for skill, knowledge and experience.
Pitting us up against wet inked licences and fresh type endorsements has been well over abused in the last ten years until recently (the experience is all but gone). Now Canada is at a point of back peddling to all the senior engineers (I’m experiencing this first hand) now unwilling to bend over backwards like they used. Things are shifting but very slowly…. It’s definitely not the industry it was 30 years ago, it’s tragic really.
RLK wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:10 pm
This is a trade of passion, not wealth.
Aviation will love you with that mindset. You are their dream person
The fact that he’s saying that as a new to industry learner is just so sad, and I’m sure he’s repeating that from somewhere/one else. If he organically produced that thought there are several companies that will take him for a cornucopia of carrots dangling. Where he gets that idea I have no clue, I know lots in the rotary and fixed wing sides of industry and I can say for certain the majority do like their trade, but hate what the industry (in Canada) has become.
It is a career of personal development and needs to remunerate for skill, knowledge and experience.
Pitting us up against wet inked licences and fresh type endorsements has been well over abused in the last ten years until recently (the experience is all but gone). Now Canada is at a point of back peddling to all the senior engineers (I’m experiencing this first hand) now unwilling to bend over backwards like they used. Things are shifting but very slowly…. It’s definitely not the industry it was 30 years ago, it’s tragic really.
I agree.
The fact he states this out loud, with some sort of peasant pride, to me is an indication of his attitude. He appears to be one of those "m so proud of my field, I'd do it for free if I had to" that used to be common years ago.
I mean if he wants to fix my four wheeled robot at a discount thats great for me. Not so much for like experienced techs who are trying to command their worth.
I'll never understand what goes on in these types brains. Maybe they got nothing else of value going on besides their jobs??? This brings me back to the thread where the hero that wanted to lowball billing on m1 aircraft maintenance because he would live in his van and never socialize.
Everyone makes their own heaven or hell. Choices can always be made to make your one life to live more enjoyable. I have lost track of how many people I have personally conversed with at various employers that have made poor choices. Wether it was not being able to negotiate a wage and then being shocked that they make less five years later than a guy walking in the door, then there is the personal life disasters like divorces, choice to have many offspring, no fiscal responsibility.
If I see a guy with a disaster in his toolbox or a disaster at home the opposite situation will also be a disaster. This is Canada, a land always ripe with opportunities and it always amazes me how an immigrant comes here and can be quite successful but a third or fourth generation Canadian is an absolute failure. Trades are like the word implies if you don’t like what your doing trade up but humans are inherently lazy and will find any excuse not to and before you know it your fifty, had AIDS(aviation induced divorce syndrome), got caught with your hands in the cookie jar, kids want a new car, etc.
You have no one to blame but your own stupidity. I had a PRM once that was nicknamed “figure it out” as that’s the advise he would hand out. Smart man but definitely a fondler of airplanes and if you were not a “team player” well you might as-well move on and I did. Great decision.
-42 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:30 am
Everyone makes their own heaven or hell. Choices can always be made to make your one life to live more enjoyable. I have lost track of how many people I have personally conversed with at various employers that have made poor choices. Wether it was not being able to negotiate a wage and then being shocked that they make less five years later than a guy walking in the door, then there is the personal life disasters like divorces, choice to have many offspring, no fiscal responsibility.
If I see a guy with a disaster in his toolbox or a disaster at home the opposite situation will also be a disaster. This is Canada, a land always ripe with opportunities and it always amazes me how an immigrant comes here and can be quite successful but a third or fourth generation Canadian is an absolute failure. Trades are like the word implies if you don’t like what your doing trade up but humans are inherently lazy and will find any excuse not to and before you know it your fifty, had AIDS(aviation induced divorce syndrome), got caught with your hands in the cookie jar, kids want a new car, etc.
You have no one to blame but your own stupidity. I had a PRM once that was nicknamed “figure it out” as that’s the advise he would hand out. Smart man but definitely a fondler of airplanes and if you were not a “team player” well you might as-well move on and I did. Great decision.
Either way I think with the combined hundreds of years of experience posting on here their experiences, (in all avenues of Canadian aviation) the tone is pretty well the same. There is a lot of constructive feedback from industry on here. All in all it’s not a desirable career besides the feather in your cap. High liability and workload for low pay is never a selling feature. Companies are on the ropes a bit from the lack of experienced personnel left due to the aforementioned, but I’m sure most will get by with 50 first year ames to one 20 year veteran until they run out of first years (that’s coming down the pipe, very low attendance at Colleges in the last few years).
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 9:00 am
Companies are on the ropes a bit from the lack of experienced personnel left due to the aforementioned, but I’m sure most will get by with 50 first year ames to one 20 year veteran until they run out of first years (that’s coming down the pipe, very low attendance at Colleges in the last few years).
These people are not going to last if they don't make sacrifices. They will eventually realize that staying in this job is pointless if they are not going to advance to higher pay rate and responsibility. Tell me if getting an ACA is worth it?
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 9:00 am
Companies are on the ropes a bit from the lack of experienced personnel left due to the aforementioned, but I’m sure most will get by with 50 first year ames to one 20 year veteran until they run out of first years (that’s coming down the pipe, very low attendance at Colleges in the last few years).
These people are not going to last if they don't make sacrifices. They will eventually realize that staying in this job is pointless if they are not going to advance to higher pay rate and responsibility. Tell me if getting an ACA is worth it?
AMFA is representing Westjet now and almost every AME there is pissed off. 99% voted and 97.5% have agreed to strike. Hopefully this will set some new precedents in Canadian aviation and reduce the amount of abuse and low pay is being dished out
@Bug_Stomper_01 It's nice to see them finally speaking out! I used to work for that airline by the way! I'm not up-to-date since I'm no longer in Aviation, but when I was in there, it was not even unionized. You see what I was talking about? This is a very small and unstable industry! Just because you are currently stable doesn't mean it will always remain that way! And seriously, the pay now have barely changed since 10 years ago, and the pay during that time was already so unjustifiable! Is this even a job since few people can make a living out of it?! There is just so much disconnect about the realities of this industry out there! They don't know until they do it!
