Failed Instructor Class 4 FT

[HankHill]

Hello

I recently failed my Class 4 Instructor Flight test. In the coming days I will be going up again with the same examiner. I understand my previous mistake and have taken all measures to make up for any short comings.

In the worse possible scenario if a instructor trainee fails a second or third time taking the flight test (Failing for not being able to perform a CPL standard exercise). What would happen? How would multiple Flight test failures impact getting a job as a flight instructor at a FTU?

If I was applying for a job, would I need to disclose if I've failed? Or would the flight training unit look into my TC records?

[digits_]

It's very unlikely anyone would know, unless it gets brought up naturally in a conversation. It's definitely possible an FTU might want to talk to the school where you did your training. There's no need to volunteer the information, but don't lie about it either.

Don't worry about it too much yet, see what happens during your second flight test.

[Dronepiper]

Just out of curiosity, was your examiner Harv Penner?

[Bede]

Everyone has the capability of failing a ride on any given day, so I wouldn't worry about it. However, if you still aren't up to standard after a second attempt, I think you would need to take a serious look at whether it's for you.

[HankHill]

Hello Bede

I passed all items, however I failed my second attempt at a Forced Approach. The examiner left many positive remarks, however due to me not successfully passing one of the required CPL standard items, It was a complete fail.

[Turboprops]

Hello Bede

however I failed my second attempt at a Forced Approach.

Wait so the examiner gave you 2 tries on forced approach?

[HankHill]

Yes and I failed both attempts on the forced approach.

[HankHill]

It's very unlikely anyone would know, unless it gets brought up naturally in a conversation. It's definitely possible an FTU might want to talk to the school where you did your training. There's no need to volunteer the information, but don't lie about it either.

Don't worry about it too much yet, see what happens during your second flight test.

I’m curious. Has anyone failed the instructor class 4 FT more than 2 times and successfully passed and still able to obtain a job? If anyone can elaborate some any crazy stories. I’m always thinking about the worse possible case. What if a candidate passes in a 2nd or even Third attempt.

As to the later comment by Bede. Should a trainee really reexamine their choice of becoming an instructor if they are only failing one item on the flight test, but everything else they’ve done correctly

[Red_Comet]

Forced approach (and to a lesser extent precision 180) is the most challenging flight test item by far. There is very little room for error, and wind conditions and the altitude/location the examiner pulls the power can also factor in. I've heard of (and experienced) examiners pulling power at low altitudes, even though the flight test guide states 3000' AGL minimum. It happened to me, and I'm sure its happened to others. Examiners tend to do their own thing and we can't do much about it.

The forced is particularly bad because of the absurd procedural list we have to rip through while flying the a/c and selecting a field. I wouldn't tell anyone to quit flying because they failed the forced. Just go practice it everyday for a week and you'll improve.

[HankHill]

Forced approach (and to a lesser extent precision 180) is the most challenging flight test item by far. There is very little room for error, and wind conditions and the altitude/location the examiner pulls the power can also factor in. I've heard of (and experienced) examiners pulling power at low altitudes, even though the flight test guide states 3000' AGL minimum. It happened to me, and I'm sure its happened to others. Examiners tend to do their own thing and we can't do much about it.

The forced is particularly bad because of the absurd procedural list we have to rip through while flying the a/c and selecting a field. I wouldn't tell anyone to quit flying because they failed the forced. Just go practice it everyday for a week and you'll improve.

Thank you for the positive response, dumb question. Is there a limit to the amount of times you can take the class 4 instructor flight test? Anyone can further clarify? All the positive comments from failed to success instructor flight test stories help. I feel extremely demotivated. I feel a lot better. But I feel like I am not the only one

[digits_]

It's very unlikely anyone would know, unless it gets brought up naturally in a conversation. It's definitely possible an FTU might want to talk to the school where you did your training. There's no need to volunteer the information, but don't lie about it either.

Don't worry about it too much yet, see what happens during your second flight test.

I’m curious. Has anyone failed the instructor class 4 FT more than 2 times and successfully passed and still able to obtain a job? If anyone can elaborate some any crazy stories. I’m always thinking about the worse possible case. What if a candidate passes in a 2nd or even Third attempt.

As to the later comment by Bede. Should a trainee really reexamine their choice of becoming an instructor if they are only failing one item on the flight test, but everything else they’ve done correctly

I don't know of anyone, but most people wouldn't really advertise that either.

I know of new hires that failed a PPC twice at an operator, and they still had a job. It happens.

Obviously it's better if it doesn't happen, but it's not the end of your career.

[rookiepilot]

Don’t do the re ride in 35 knot upper winds. Thats how I blew my PPL forced.

Of course I only was given one chance. I had to do a reride to pass the one failed exercise.

Passed CPL, IFR rides NP.

Why did you get 2 chances at the forced? Curious.

Seems awfully lenient for an instructor rating.

[Red_Comet]

I also haven't heard of any Class 4 fails, and don't have experience failing flight tests myself. I will say there are only two factors in determining your success on a flight test: 1) Your level of practice/prep and 2) The examiner. Of the two, you can only control the first, but I daresay the second has a far bigger impact on your overall success.

I know instructors are heavily scrutinized for recommending students who then fail, but I don't know if the same applies to examiners. I've known examiners who are quite set in their ways, in a "my way or the highway" sense, and if they don't like you or are having a bad day for some reason, will fail you without a moment's hesitation. Hanging around an FTU, you hear some pretty incredible stories from students who fail. Mostly it's for an understandable reason, but there are some truly shocking stories of examiners being set on failing someone.

Also, the flight test guide is pretty strict, and most good examiners are lenient. It's extremely easy to get 5 level 2s on a PPL/CPL test, because even if you didn't exceed any tolerances, you weren't perfect on five separate exercises.

Long story short, I would try and get a different examiner for your second attempt if at all possible, that is IF you think the examiner was being unfair. Also, practice constantly (3-5 times a week) before your test. GA flying is 90% muscle memory. Knowing procedures is great, but if you're only flying once a week it'll be hard to consistently be within tolerance for a battery of exercises where you only have one attempt.

[StrayPilot]

Forced approach (and to a lesser extent precision 180) is the most challenging flight test item by far. There is very little room for error, and wind conditions and the altitude/location the examiner pulls the power can also factor in. I've heard of (and experienced) examiners pulling power at low altitudes, even though the flight test guide states 3000' AGL minimum. It happened to me, and I'm sure its happened to others. Examiners tend to do their own thing and we can't do much about it.

The forced is particularly bad because of the absurd procedural list we have to rip through while flying the a/c and selecting a field. I wouldn't tell anyone to quit flying because they failed the forced. Just go practice it everyday for a week and you'll improve.

Thank you for the positive response, dumb question. Is there a limit to the amount of times you can take the class 4 instructor flight test? Anyone can further clarify? All the positive comments from failed to success instructor flight test stories help. I feel extremely demotivated. I feel a lot better. But I feel like I am not the only one

Alright I'm not really experienced in Canada but I've been following this forum for a while since I'm landing there soon as an immigrant plus I've been working in a flight training capacity for the past nine years so I'm gonna put some of my input in here.

The one thing I've learnt from every instructor I've worked with is that, you're the best instructor when you've made all the mistakes possible when you're developing yourself and you don't be the best of the best while you're a student. Most of the exceptional students I've dealt with turned out to be terrible instructors because of their short fuse and the fact that they expect you to grasp flying at the same pace they did.

But the best instructors that I've had working under me are the ones who failed again and again and rose up to the occasion, mostly because they were able to make mistakes and learn from them, then enabling themselves to immediately recognize student errors and correct them effectively because of their shortcomings in the past.

From your post what I understand is that you might have failed to demonstrate your knack for forced approaches and failed the ride, but you have a chance to do it again.

But don't worry about how you'll score again because in this field, you'd rather make mistakes with a person in the cockpit who would scrutinize you rather than when you're the one in command.

If you've understood your mistakes, go ahead with the next ride and pass. I honestly don't think it might affect your future plans in any way

[Bede]

I’m curious. Has anyone failed the instructor class 4 FT more than 2 times and successfully passed and still able to obtain a job? If anyone can elaborate some any crazy stories. I’m always thinking about the worse possible case. What if a candidate passes in a 2nd or even Third attempt.

As to the later comment by Bede. Should a trainee really reexamine their choice of becoming an instructor if they are only failing one item on the flight test, but everything else they’ve done correctly

Look, I don't want to discourage you. Everyone has off days. Believe me, I've had a few. But, you have to ask yourself: was this an off day or is do I typically struggle flying airplanes? If you regularly struggle, it only gets harder from here on in. I've seen a few pilots who alternate between failing and barely passing flight tests and move themselves along pretty far. Until they don't. You don't want to sink more energy into a career when your true calling lies elsewhere.

So getting back to your first question, if you fail a ride once (probably about 1/3-1/2 of pilots in their career), don't sweat it. If you fail twice, it's time to do some serious thinking (or there is something medically wrong with you if you have a history of doing well). If you've failed "more than 2 times" I'm afraid but you've likely picked the wrong profession. Figure out what you are better at and pursue that vocation.

(I realize this is tough advice and I used to tell people to just stick with it, but I told that to too many people and watched aspiring pilots pour good money after bad only to wash out during initial sim training after they had been at it for 5 years. Not all vocations are for all people. There are many many things that I couldn't do well no matter how hard I tried.)

[KN84]

I’m curious. Has anyone failed the instructor class 4 FT more than 2 times and successfully passed and still able to obtain a job? If anyone can elaborate some any crazy stories. I’m always thinking about the worse possible case. What if a candidate passes in a 2nd or even Third attempt.

As to the later comment by Bede. Should a trainee really reexamine their choice of becoming an instructor if they are only failing one item on the flight test, but everything else they’ve done correctly

Look, I don't want to discourage you. Everyone has off days. Believe me, I've had a few. But, you have to ask yourself: was this an off day or is do I typically struggle flying airplanes? If you regularly struggle, it only gets harder from here on in. I've seen a few pilots who alternate between failing and barely passing flight tests and move themselves along pretty far. Until they don't. You don't want to sink more energy into a career when your true calling lies elsewhere.

So getting back to your first question, if you fail a ride once (probably about 1/3-1/2 of pilots in their career), don't sweat it. If you fail twice, it's time to do some serious thinking (or there is something medically wrong with you if you have a history of doing well). If you've failed "more than 2 times" I'm afraid but you've likely picked the wrong profession. Figure out what you are better at and pursue that vocation.

(I realize this is tough advice and I used to tell people to just stick with it, but I told that to too many people and watched aspiring pilots pour good money after bad only to wash out during initial sim training after they had been at it for 5 years. Not all vocations are for all people. There are many many things that I couldn't do well no matter how hard I tried.)

Hi, I’m questioning whether I should leave aviation due to making what appears to be the wrong aircraft choice to gain experience 705 operators are looking for.
Can you share some knowledge of type of experience airlines are looking for? My colleague who’s a training captain on BE20 has not been able to get an opportunity at an airline which has me concerned I’m gaining experience that is essentially useless.

[DanWEC]

Hmmm.

[Bede]

Hi, I’m questioning whether I should leave aviation due to making what appears to be the wrong aircraft choice to gain experience 705 operators are looking for.
Can you share some knowledge of type of experience airlines are looking for? My colleague who’s a training captain on BE20 has not been able to get an opportunity at an airline which has me concerned I’m gaining experience that is essentially useless.

I think the answer to your question was answered by many others on other threads. You can also search the responses to a guy named NickyNick. Same questions. Same answers.

[Stable_Approach]

I’m curious. Has anyone failed the instructor class 4 FT more than 2 times and successfully passed and still able to obtain a job? If anyone can elaborate some any crazy stories. I’m always thinking about the worse possible case. What if a candidate passes in a 2nd or even Third attempt.

As to the later comment by Bede. Should a trainee really reexamine their choice of becoming an instructor if they are only failing one item on the flight test, but everything else they’ve done correctly

Look, I don't want to discourage you. Everyone has off days. Believe me, I've had a few. But, you have to ask yourself: was this an off day or is do I typically struggle flying airplanes? If you regularly struggle, it only gets harder from here on in. I've seen a few pilots who alternate between failing and barely passing flight tests and move themselves along pretty far. Until they don't. You don't want to sink more energy into a career when your true calling lies elsewhere.

So getting back to your first question, if you fail a ride once (probably about 1/3-1/2 of pilots in their career), don't sweat it. If you fail twice, it's time to do some serious thinking (or there is something medically wrong with you if you have a history of doing well). If you've failed "more than 2 times" I'm afraid but you've likely picked the wrong profession. Figure out what you are better at and pursue that vocation.

(I realize this is tough advice and I used to tell people to just stick with it, but I told that to too many people and watched aspiring pilots pour good money after bad only to wash out during initial sim training after they had been at it for 5 years. Not all vocations are for all people. There are many many things that I couldn't do well no matter how hard I tried.)

Hi, I’m questioning whether I should leave aviation due to making what appears to be the wrong aircraft choice to gain experience 705 operators are looking for.
Can you share some knowledge of type of experience airlines are looking for? My colleague who’s a training captain on BE20 has not been able to get an opportunity at an airline which has me concerned I’m gaining experience that is essentially useless.

The industry has changed. Speaking to recruiters from major airlines, 705 time is critical and it's what they prefer. Can you get hired there with 703/704 time? Sure. But they have a heavy focus on hiring those with 705, glass cockpit, FMS and autopilot time. This helps keep training costs down and are areas generally where pilots with lower time struggle. Instructing time is just not as in demand as it used to be because these instructors usually come with limited multi and actual instrument time. As with more lower time twin turbine jobs available, they are going for that experience now. We are slowly shifting away from how we used to do things as more and more automation is introduced to our business.

[KN84]

Look, I don't want to discourage you. Everyone has off days. Believe me, I've had a few. But, you have to ask yourself: was this an off day or is do I typically struggle flying airplanes? If you regularly struggle, it only gets harder from here on in. I've seen a few pilots who alternate between failing and barely passing flight tests and move themselves along pretty far. Until they don't. You don't want to sink more energy into a career when your true calling lies elsewhere.

So getting back to your first question, if you fail a ride once (probably about 1/3-1/2 of pilots in their career), don't sweat it. If you fail twice, it's time to do some serious thinking (or there is something medically wrong with you if you have a history of doing well). If you've failed "more than 2 times" I'm afraid but you've likely picked the wrong profession. Figure out what you are better at and pursue that vocation.

(I realize this is tough advice and I used to tell people to just stick with it, but I told that to too many people and watched aspiring pilots pour good money after bad only to wash out during initial sim training after they had been at it for 5 years. Not all vocations are for all people. There are many many things that I couldn't do well no matter how hard I tried.)

Hi, I’m questioning whether I should leave aviation due to making what appears to be the wrong aircraft choice to gain experience 705 operators are looking for.
Can you share some knowledge of type of experience airlines are looking for? My colleague who’s a training captain on BE20 has not been able to get an opportunity at an airline which has me concerned I’m gaining experience that is essentially useless.

The industry has changed. Speaking to recruiters from major airlines, 705 time is critical and it's what they prefer. Can you get hired there with 703/704 time? Sure. But they have a heavy focus on hiring those with 705, glass cockpit, FMS and autopilot time. This helps keep training costs down and are areas generally where pilots with lower time struggle. Instructing time is just not as in demand as it used to be because these instructors usually come with limited multi and actual instrument time. As with more lower time twin turbine jobs available, they are going for that experience now. We are slowly shifting away from how we used to do things as more and more automation is introduced to our business.

Thanks for the update. As with any occupation one can’t get experience without an opportunity. G1000 experience isn’t the type 705 operators are looking for in applications?

[DanWEC]

No, need G2000 at least.

[TeePeeCreeper]

No, need G2000 at least.

Not even worth the breath or keyboard strikes Dan.

Welcome back Nick Nick!

[Aviatard]

Why did you get 2 chances at the forced? Curious.

Seems awfully lenient for an instructor rating.

You’re right it doesn’t seem like it should be allowed since now you’re supposed to set a higher standard than a normal flight test.

It’s considered good airmanship since in real life if you blew it on a demonstration with a student you’d just do it again. However you’d better get it right the second time on the instructor ride because you’re not getting a third chance.

[tsgarp]

Yes and I failed both attempts on the forced approach.

The Class One that recommended you for the flight test might be in for a chat.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I know of 3 instructors who failed 2 rides, passed their third attempts and when on to be successfull instructors.