Brazil ATR 72-500 Spin/Crash

[JasonE]

Looks like a fairly well developed spin in the videos online. Sad for all the people on board, all died. (58 + 4 crew)

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/409335

[digits_]

That footage

It's about as textbook as you can get to see what a spin looks like. Does an ATR 72 have a tendency to start spinning like that if you stall it? One would think more of a spiral dive would eventually develop.

[2112]

That is the stuff of nightmares.

[Dry Guy]

Icing again?

[scdriver]

Is that flat spin a characteristic of the atr or the result of loading way too far aft or something?

[truecolours]

Something looks to have been off the moment the plane took off. The speed and altitude looks to be erratic right from the start. Ground speed variations of 100, 150 + knots and climbs and descents.

[Dry Guy]

Something looks to have been off the moment the plane took off. The speed and altitude looks to be erratic right from the start. Ground speed variations of 100, 150 + knots and climbs and descents.

Altitude is normal. It's ADS-B ground speed that's fluctuating up and down. The same ground speed reporting error has been happening with this aircraft for at least a week so I'm not sure if it's a clue.

[truecolours]

Something looks to have been off the moment the plane took off. The speed and altitude looks to be erratic right from the start. Ground speed variations of 100, 150 + knots and climbs and descents.

Altitude is normal. It's ADS-B ground speed that's fluctuating up and down. The same ground speed reporting error has been happening with this aircraft for at least a week so I'm not sure if it's a clue.

There are a few abnormal climbs and descents being recorded but minor compared to the speed fluctuations. Like you pointed out, this tail has been showing speed variations like this for the entire history that I can see back to June. I’m guessing an encoding error? I don’t know if flight radar etc report actual gs or it’s it just what is reported. Or….? I’d like to think if this plane had been flying around +/- 100 knots, atc might say something!

[Eric Janson]

Icing again?

Multiple SIGMETs in that region for severe icing.

Unclear if this was a factor in this accident.

[Anticyclone]

It reminds me of the Roselawn Indiana accident except the spin part.
The ATR is unlike the Q4, it doesn't like icing. My thoughts are with the families.

[Dry Guy]

A good reminder to all that no aircraft is certified to sit in icing. Get out of it immediately. Especially the ATR. Don't try to takeoff with contamination with it either, as we all learned. If you're a Canadian operator think twice about buying one of these things.

[pelmet]

Never go below red bug in icing in the ATR. It is not as forgiving as a dash-8(I base that on icing related crashes). An ATR guy did that in Europe in order to get to the nearby tops in icing and temporarily lost control. Apparently, that 86% prop speed makes a big difference too, based on what I have read.

If it was icing that caused this accident, it is totally avoidable like the ones in cruise in Cuba and Taiwan where there was plenty of warm air below them. Descend to it at a very safe speed and your problem are magically solved. Cold weather to the ground is a more challenging situation.

High speed in a descent also increases TAT which is helpful. We did that in a jet one time after an anti-ice failure with icing conditions at destination and alternate, kept the TAT above freezing for most of the decent until it is actually necessary to slow down.

[Chaxterium]

High speed in a descent also increases TAT which is helpful. We did that in a jet one time after an anti-ice failure with icing conditions at destination and alternate, kept the TAT above freezing for most of the decent until it is actually necessary to slow down.

If I remember correctly (it's been a while) there's a procedure in the CRJ's QRH for severe icing encounters. It basically says go as fast as you can for as long as you can.

[Dry Guy]

Sometimes a 180 degree turn is the only way out.

[cdnavater]

High speed in a descent also increases TAT which is helpful. We did that in a jet one time after an anti-ice failure with icing conditions at destination and alternate, kept the TAT above freezing for most of the decent until it is actually necessary to slow down.

If I remember correctly (it's been a while) there's a procedure in the CRJ's QRH for severe icing encounters. It basically says go as fast as you can for as long as you can.

100 knot increase in speed has a ram rise of 8C, the checklist is called “ice dispersal”

[TG]

If you're a Canadian operator think twice about buying one of these things.

There is a whole list of them who would respectfully disagree with you.

[goingnowherefast]

I'm sure lots of operators thought twice and bought them because they're the only airplane that can do the job. The Dash-8 just doesn't have the range that is required in the arctic.

Plus, true icing season is pretty short in the arctic. At FL2xx, there isn't much ice that's going to cause problems in February when the OAT is -50°c or colder. Shoulder seasons are the only real ice is in flight threat. Even then, just follow the manufacturer procedures. Sure they're a little more complicated than a jet with a hot wing. ATRs have been working for Calm Air and Canadian North (First Air) for a while.

[Old fella]

A vivid and by all accounts a disturbing video of a commercial airliner plunging in an unrecoverable spin. I could never imagine and shudder to think of the final moments of these unfortunate souls on that aircraft. May all rest in internal peace.

[Meatservo]

I know a lot of my contemporaries loved doing fully developed spins in training. Of course it’s a benign manoeuvre in a properly balanced training aeroplane. I used to be secretly terrified of them. I used to think: whatever the plane is doing right now, it’s not flying. I don’t like being in a plane that isn’t flying. On the ground it’s boring, and in the air it is cause for extreme concern. The video of that airliner slowly and gently floating down to the ground just to murder its occupants in a fireball makes me feel the same way one might feel if he woke up suddenly in the middle of the night covered with baby spiders.

[CensoredLF]

Co-pilot reported "a lot of icing"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... rly-report

CLF

[pelmet]

Min speed red bug in any icing scenario. Don't get below it. In a place like Brazil, where there is plenty of warmth below, make sure to descend before red bug. If ATC says NO.....ignore them and declare an emergency AFTER the descent has started.

[dontcallmeshirley]

A good reminder to all that no aircraft is certified to sit in icing. Get out of it immediately. Especially the ATR. Don't try to takeoff with contamination with it either, as we all learned. If you're a Canadian operator think twice about buying one of these things.

Q400s in Canada spend entire flights in icing for half of the year.

[Dry Guy]

No they don't and that's a hazardous attitude

[Canadaflyer46]

Agreed. Q400 has lots of power, but it also has 1930s deice technology entirely unsuited to a modern 705 aircraft. Deice boots are to get you out of anything more than light icing asap. I've had two near-emergencies with this aircraft in severe icing. The attitude of "the aircraft can take it because it's got lots of power" is bullshit. Honestly suprised no one has piled one in yet to be honest.

[goingnowherefast]

In Canadian summers, the icing is in the flight levels. Melt it off down in the teens

In Canadian winters, the icing is down low. The flight levels are -30 or colder and icing is typically trace at best.

So yeah, it might ocassionally be icing for a whole flight. In winter it's light-moderate down low and trace-nil up high. Alternatively in the summer, go down and melt it off at 17,000ft. Sure +2°c might still be technically icing conditions, but it melts off the airframe.