We Fly The Flag Podcast - Mandatory Listening

[cdnavater]

Not trying to be dense, but would that not be normal? If you need a backup flight, and you don't have one, isn't that on the pilot?

Am I missing something?

Yes, the part you’re missing is, the commute policy covers you if you DON’T make it to work, if you miss your check in and followed the policy you are covered and protected from discipline.
If a pilot chooses to only have one flight but still makes it to work on time that is their choice to roll the dice and if it backfires, they would be subject to discipline, only if it backfires.

Ahhhhh ok. I see, that makes sense. It's an extra way to protect you but it's not supposed to be an obligation.

Thank you!

You are always obligated to make it to work and as the rest of my post, left out of the quote indicated, the company has no business policing you if you make it to work on time!

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Yes, the part you’re missing is, the commute policy covers you if you DON’T make it to work, if you miss your check in and followed the policy you are covered and protected from discipline.
If a pilot chooses to only have one flight but still makes it to work on time that is their choice to roll the dice and if it backfires, they would be subject to discipline, only if it backfires.

As an outsider, I don't get your logic and for once I side with the corporation on this. If there is a rule but the pilot is breaking the rule, you think that the company should only become aware of it if it causes a problem and the pilot gets caught?

When it becomes a problem, it's already too late and a new pilot needs to be found to operate the flight. Add to the fact that if too many pilots are "cheating" and the problem becomes more apparent, that could be incentive enough for a company to scrap any commuting rules at all. I.e. a few bad apples ruin it for the vast majority who are following the rules.

I never commuted, but if I did, I would follow the rule to not only protect myself but also keep a good thing going for the rest of the group, and I'd have no issue with the company in this case doing random checks to make sure everyone is compliant. A company doesn't owe you a commuting policy because you choose to live elsewhere, and the alternative of losing commuting privileges entirely due to some people skirting the rules would not sit well with those who abide by them.

[cdnavater]

Yes, the part you’re missing is, the commute policy covers you if you DON’T make it to work, if you miss your check in and followed the policy you are covered and protected from discipline.
If a pilot chooses to only have one flight but still makes it to work on time that is their choice to roll the dice and if it backfires, they would be subject to discipline, only if it backfires.

As an outsider, I don't get your logic and for once I side with the corporation on this. If there is a rule but the pilot is breaking the rule, you think that the company should only become aware of it if it causes a problem and the pilot gets caught?

When it becomes a problem, it's already too late and a new pilot needs to be found to operate the flight. Add to the fact that if too many pilots are "cheating" and the problem becomes more apparent, that could be incentive enough for a company to scrap any commuting rules at all. I.e. a few bad apples ruin it for the vast majority who are following the rules.

I never commuted, but if I did, I would follow the rule to not only protect myself but also keep a good thing going for the rest of the group, and I'd have no issue with the company in this case doing random checks to make sure everyone is compliant. A company doesn't owe you a commuting policy because you choose to live elsewhere, and the alternative of losing commuting privileges entirely due to some people skirting the rules would not sit well with those who abide by them.

From our contract and to be fair I don’t know the wording in the WJ contract which is what was brought up however I’m using Jazz as that’s what I know.
a) Pilots choosing to commute are responsible to fulfill their job requirements and as such are expected to report for duty as scheduled.

b) A Pilot shall not be disciplined provided he complies with the following:
i) The commuting Pilot must have two (2) flights available, the later of which must be scheduled to arrive at least thirty (30) minutes prior to the scheduled Check In time. The above requirements do not relieve the commuting Pilot of his responsibility of exercising good judgment when considering when it is appropriate to start his travel to his Base. A Pilot who is deemed not to have exercised good judgment in regards to his commute is not covered under this section and may be subject to disciplinary action.

It’s a policy that should you choose to not abide, you are not covered by it, for all intents and purposes, commuting by air is no different then choosing a 3 hour drive to work, you are responsible for getting to work on time or you will be disciplined. If you leave home in your car without enough time to get to work on time you expect to get in shit from your boss, the only difference is the union has put in a commute policy to cover us if things go wrong.
I’m not saying I agree with only having one flight, that’s pretty irresponsible but I’m saying it’s not a work policy, it’s a CBA rule that covers you, not meant to be policed unless you don’t make it

[digits_]

Yes, the part you’re missing is, the commute policy covers you if you DON’T make it to work, if you miss your check in and followed the policy you are covered and protected from discipline.
If a pilot chooses to only have one flight but still makes it to work on time that is their choice to roll the dice and if it backfires, they would be subject to discipline, only if it backfires.

As an outsider, I don't get your logic and for once I side with the corporation on this. If there is a rule but the pilot is breaking the rule, you think that the company should only become aware of it if it causes a problem and the pilot gets caught?

When it becomes a problem, it's already too late and a new pilot needs to be found to operate the flight. Add to the fact that if too many pilots are "cheating" and the problem becomes more apparent, that could be incentive enough for a company to scrap any commuting rules at all. I.e. a few bad apples ruin it for the vast majority who are following the rules.

I never commuted, but if I did, I would follow the rule to not only protect myself but also keep a good thing going for the rest of the group, and I'd have no issue with the company in this case doing random checks to make sure everyone is compliant. A company doesn't owe you a commuting policy because you choose to live elsewhere, and the alternative of losing commuting privileges entirely due to some people skirting the rules would not sit well with those who abide by them.

I thought the same thing, but cdnavater's quote cleared up a lot.

Thinking about it further, enforcing a 2 flight rule would be practically impossible. The problem with this would be how you define a commuting pilot. A pilot doesn't have to commute via airline. And as far as I know an employer can not enforce you to use a certain mode of transport to get to work.

A pilot that could choose between a 4 hour drive or a 2 hour flight, might try to get on the 'last available flight' which might get him to work with 3 hours to spare, and decide to drive as a backup if he misses his flight. It would be silly if a contract would prohibit this. Or perhaps he has access to a private plane, or could charter a plane in an emergency. You don't really know for sure.

[tupues]

From our contract and to be fair I don’t know the wording in the WJ contract which is what was brought up however I’m using Jazz as that’s what I know.
a) Pilots choosing to commute are responsible to fulfill their job requirements and as such are expected to report for duty as scheduled.

b) A Pilot shall not be disciplined provided he complies with the following:[/b]
i) The commuting Pilot must have two (2) flights available, the later of which must be scheduled to arrive at least thirty (30) minutes prior to the scheduled Check In time. The above requirements do not relieve the commuting Pilot of his responsibility of exercising good judgment when considering when it is appropriate to start his travel to his Base. A Pilot who is deemed not to have exercised good judgment in regards to his commute is not covered under this section and may be subject to disciplinary action.

It’s a policy that should you choose to not abide, you are not covered by it, for all intents and purposes, commuting by air is no different then choosing a 3 hour drive to work, you are responsible for getting to work on time or you will be disciplined. If you leave home in your car without enough time to get to work on time you expect to get in shit from your boss, the only difference is the union has put in a commute policy to cover us if things go wrong.
I’m not saying I agree with only having one flight, that’s pretty irresponsible but I’m saying it’s not a work policy, it’s a CBA rule that covers you, not meant to be policed unless you don’t make it

This is an interesting topic. Purely under the assumption that I will be covered by a commuting policy and have less hassle, I actually picked my base to commute by plane instead of driving. Driving I will not be covered for traffic, chaos with snow etc whereas flying I will be covered for cancelations, oversold flights etc.

What I am not entirely sure about is the wording regarding the "good judgement" mentioned above. This to me stipulates that any missed commute could be laid out as "poor judgement".

I for one hope for confirmed commuting travel with the new contract, like a good number of our US counterparts have it...

[altiplano]

Drive in commuters that are late due to an event aren't disciplined.

GTA snow storm?
"Yeah. everyone's not making it in, do what you can."

YUL floods?
"Yeah. Parking lot is 3' underwater, do what you can."

YYC-YVR flight cancel unforeseen?
"You're next trip is pulled. Report to the MLO office on Monday morning."

Non-punitive drops with no credit when loads/weather/maintenance/shit happens for everyone is all we need whether you are driving or flying your commute.

We also need an effective trip trade/drop system so you can work your schedule into your commute plans whether that means avoiding the 401 at 8am on weekdays or arranging your reports/releases to have options that make your commute more reliable.

[altiplano]

Is it though? I am sure that the devil is in the details, which I admit I don't know, but if the contract stipulates that you need a backup flight, is it then not normal that the company would be pissed off if you increase the chance of missing your pairing because you did not provide said backup?

That happened years ago. The intent was that if you miss the flight, if you have a backup you won't be disciplined. It turned into managers looking up random commuters travel history and making sure they had a back up flight.

That's ridiculous. Wide open loads and good weather on a flight that gets you to your pairing on time should be all the good judgement required. Versus an expectation to take a flight that leaves you waiting hours early for your pairing report.

Some stations maybe only have a couple flights a day. Not like YYC-YVR or YUL-YYZ where there are hourly flights on multiple carriers.

[tupues]

That's ridiculous. Wide open loads and good weather on a flight that gets you to your pairing on time should be all the good judgement required. Versus an expectation to take a flight that leaves you waiting hours early for your pairing report.

Some stations maybe only have a couple flights a day. Not like YYC-YVR or YUL-YYZ where there are hourly flights on multiple carriers.

Agreed. For some stations you will have to fly in the night prior if you have to fulfil that requirement...

What we absolutely need too is long and short call reserves. It cannot be that you are forced to crash at your base days on end even though you well know there is only a very small chance of getting called.

[daedalusx]

Actually, I was glad that it was brought up in the podcast that commuting used to be a choice, it's not anymore. Now tell me what kind of accommodations you can afford in YVR and YYZ on a AC starting wage at 58K/year within 1 hour drive of the airport, even at 80K/year you'll barely survive when 2000$ goes into your 700sqft loft.

Times have changed, the salaries you needed to qualify for a mortgage 10 years ago vs today it's almost doubled.

We're getting 1M+ new Canadians every year with no end in sight. BlackRock/Century wants Canada to reach 100M by 2100. Housing will be an issue for the foreseeable future regardless who wins the next election and airlines will have to re-consider and integrate commuting as part of their employee retention/attraction package just like some American regional carriers do: POS space flight home to base, hotels, commuting schedules, etc.

This can also be achieved by starting smaller bases/ports. I know it's a hard sell for the boomers out there who bough their homes at 80K and sold them for 1.2M but sooner or later, someone will have to face to reality that it will be next to impossible to own property in YVR/YYZ unless you inherit it.

[Fanblade]

Couple of points.

Two flight requirement? What about taking a ferry from Vancouver Island?

Bede was correct in his warning. Having a commuter policy with a requirement in it only hands the company a stick to use. There is one constant. You give management a stick? They will eventually use it.

Only a matter of time before a commuter by ferry gets disciplined for not having two flights. As ridiculous as that sounds.

Commuter policies in the US have morphed away from any kind of disciplinary action at all.

You can make it?

The company has one of two choices. You don’t get paid. Or they tell you to call when you get to base and you are now replacing the reserve they now have to use.

It protects the operation and the Reserve/pay threat is enough of an incentive to be cautious in the commute.

It works. The stick is not required albeit it is something the company is deathly afraid to let go of.

#Say no to sticks the company will beat you with. Well unless you are into that kind of thing.