Getting stationed out of YYZ

[KnotYourCaptain]

Hello everyone,

I am currently in an instructing position and gearing towards applying to the airlines. Before I do I would like to get some information on Jazz to help make my decision regarding where to apply.

I would love to be stationed out of Toronto and so my goal has always been Porter. However, I have heard getting Jet time and applying DEC E2 at Porter would be wise. I am up for this type of route but I am not sure I can commit to commuting with Jazz and want to know how they decide on your home base and how hard/realistic is it to apply to a base (such as YYZ) and actually get it?

Thanks for taking the time to read and any responses and insights are very much appreciated!

EDIT: Apologies if there was confusion, i meant, i am in an instructing position and goal is end of year next year to apply to the airlines but want to be efficient with my moves. I dont want direct entry captain into Porter, i used the wrong term. I was asking if getting jet time at jazz is worth it and would allow me to go direct entry into porter out of YYZ on the E2 because the E2 operates out of YYZ. If i did do Jazz and get a jet my goal would be to apply and go direct entry first officer at Porter, but first plan to instruct for a year and a bit, or however long it takes, then figure out if its worth going to jazz to leverage myself into a position at porter. Also wanted to know the odds of getting stationed out of YYZ with Jazz since i dont have much flexibility in moving, so if the odds are not in my favour then i would just apply to porter on the Q4 and just work my way up.

[Man_in_the_sky]

You draw your seniority in ground school and pick one of the open position available for your course.

If you are instructing, don’t look at dec on a e2.. learn to walk before thinking about running a marathon

[KN84]

Does Jazz prefer candidates not have real world experience? Doesn’t seem plausible to hire candidates with only instructing experience instead of candidates who are training Captains in 703 ops.

[daedalusx]

If you are instructing, don’t look at dec on a e2.. learn to walk before thinking about running a marathon

This. Precisely.

[Nick678]

If you are instructing, don’t look at dec on a e2.. learn to walk before thinking about running a marathon

This. Precisely.

I don’t think thats what they are implying, they would like to work at jazz and get experience then go to Porter E2 DEC.

[daedalusx]

If you are instructing, don’t look at dec on a e2.. learn to walk before thinking about running a marathon

This. Precisely.

I don’t think thats what they are implying, they would like to work at jazz and get experience then go to Porter E2 DEC.

If the OP wants as a 5-10 year career goal to be a E2 capt at Porter out of YYZ then, as a flight instructor level of experience, he’s better off trying to get hired at Porter and work his way up.

Otherwise, going to Jazz in the hope of quickly getting PIC jet time as a way to try to get hired as a Porter DEC … it’s not as likely to work for a lot of reasons but the main one of that there’s no guarantee that 3-4 years from now Porter still hires DECs or that he will have enough experience to meet the hiring requirements or that he will pass the assessment.

At Jazz he might get drafted on the Q400 out of GS so now if he wants to build his captaincy experience on a jet, he will have to upgrade onto a type that he’s never flown before, going to places that he’s never been, with first officers that have a very low experience level … It’s not that it can’t be done, plenty of Jazz pilots have upgraded onto a different type, but usually they had way more operational experience than your typical flight instructor.

It’s just the wrong way to look at it … if you want to work for Porter out of YYZ … apply there … they’re hiring.

[BetterLateThanNever]

Does Jazz prefer candidates not have real world experience? Doesn’t seem plausible to hire candidates with only instructing experience instead of candidates who are training Captains in 703 ops.

Jazz may prefer high time candidates but like all regionals they are having problems finding them. Right now many 703 Training Captains are going direct to AC, WJ or Porter E2. This might change but recent classes have had several instructors with 1000ish hours and some even less. Apply. Worst that can happen is you get PFO.

[KN84]

Does Jazz prefer candidates not have real world experience? Doesn’t seem plausible to hire candidates with only instructing experience instead of candidates who are training Captains in 703 ops.

Jazz may prefer high time candidates but like all regionals they are having problems finding them. Right now many 703 Training Captains are going direct to AC, WJ or Porter E2. This might change but recent classes have had several instructors with 1000ish hours and some even less. Apply. Worst that can happen is you get PFO.

Hi, I haven’t applied yet as I’ve only started doing line indoc for new BE20 first officers. A colleague whose been a training captain for a long time hasn’t been hired at a 705 ops yet. Seems like hiring is done by who one knows instead of one’s experience which is reason I’m contemplating leaving aviation to use my degree. Hard work appears doesn’t get recognized for flight crew hiring.

[BetterLateThanNever]

I would avoid making decisions based on "I have a colleague" or "I know someone" stories. There are exceptions to every rule and you never really know what happened. Your colleague may be a great pilot but perform poorly in interviews. Or they may be aiming too high and not willing to take a lowly FO job at a regional.

70% of the FOs at my last job decided not to upgrade and went to a 705 with less than 1 year of 703 experience. Those that upgraded typically went to 705 jets after a year in the left seat.

Get some BE20 experience and ~1000+ TT and you will have no problem getting a call from Jazz, Encore or the like in the current hiring environment. Getting past that call will depend on your skills but mostly on your attitude.

[DanWEC]

Betterlatethanever, KN84 is some sort of joke account, just ignore.

[prop2jet]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

[cdnavater]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

[daedalusx]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

I’d rather fly with a 250 hr cadet than a 1500 hrs 172 instructor.

[cdnavater]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

I’d rather fly with a 250 hr cadet than a 1500 hrs 172 instructor.

Yep, same for training, I had a cadet and higher time instructor paired together, the cadet was prompting and correcting the other for me, it was pretty comical

[CaptDukeNukem]

Does Jazz prefer candidates not have real world experience? Doesn’t seem plausible to hire candidates with only instructing experience instead of candidates who are training Captains in 703 ops.

You again? Post your resume here. Someone will help you find a job.

[lowoleo22]

Hello everyone,

I am currently in an instructing position and gearing towards applying to the airlines. Before I do I would like to get some information on Jazz to help make my decision regarding where to apply.

I would love to be stationed out of Toronto and so my goal has always been Porter. However, I have heard getting Jet time and applying DEC E2 at Porter would be wise. I am up for this type of route but I am not sure I can commit to commuting with Jazz and want to know how they decide on your home base and how hard/realistic is it to apply to a base (such as YYZ) and actually get it?

Thanks for taking the time to read and any responses and insights are very much appreciated!

If your goal is Porter E2 CA, you are wasting your time working at Jazz. 4-5 years from now when you have the experience there is no guarantee Porter will even be hiring DEC's (no other 705 is currently hiring those). The E2 roster is already CA heavy, they are mostly looking for FO's now. On top of that you will have wasted 4-5 years of seniority that you could have been building at Porter and will be starting from the bottom when you arrive. If they aren't in need of CA's when you do arrive, you will likely have to spend 1-2 years sitting in the right seat anyway. You would get to an E2 CA spot faster and more comfortably by joining Porter today, even if that means spending time on the Dash 8 before moving over. There are folks who come to both the Dash and E2 as DEC's who fail training because they under estimate the challenge they face. If you learn the operation first you will have an easier time in the left seat.

In terms of Jazz bases, they are awarded by random seniority draw on day 1 of ground school. It is very unlikely you will get your first pick, so expect to be commuting for 6 months-1 year before you are able to successfully bid the base that you want. That being said lots of people go to Jazz and make it a lifelong career. Best of luck with your decision!

[KN84]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

Why aren’t candidates with G1000 or Proline21 BE20 experience hired?

[propfeather]

Why aren’t candidates with G1000 or Proline21 BE20 experience hired?

They certainly are.

[KnotYourCaptain]

This. Precisely.

I don’t think thats what they are implying, they would like to work at jazz and get experience then go to Porter E2 DEC.

If the OP wants as a 5-10 year career goal to be a E2 capt at Porter out of YYZ then, as a flight instructor level of experience, he’s better off trying to get hired at Porter and work his way up.

Otherwise, going to Jazz in the hope of quickly getting PIC jet time as a way to try to get hired as a Porter DEC … it’s not as likely to work for a lot of reasons but the main one of that there’s no guarantee that 3-4 years from now Porter still hires DECs or that he will have enough experience to meet the hiring requirements or that he will pass the assessment.

At Jazz he might get drafted on the Q400 out of GS so now if he wants to build his captaincy experience on a jet, he will have to upgrade onto a type that he’s never flown before, going to places that he’s never been, with first officers that have a very low experience level … It’s not that it can’t be done, plenty of Jazz pilots have upgraded onto a different type, but usually they had way more operational experience than your typical flight instructor.

It’s just the wrong way to look at it … if you want to work for Porter out of YYZ … apply there … they’re hiring.

[lostav8r]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

Do you or anyone here have advice for the 172 instructors on how to be more competent or what to work on before jumping into the 705 world? I know some things are hard to practice before you get there (good luck getting a 172 to have a FB or fly as fast as a dash) but things people can practice?

[Me262]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

Do you or anyone here have advice for the 172 instructors on how to be more competent or what to work on before jumping into the 705 world? I know some things are hard to practice before you get there (good luck getting a 172 to have a FB or fly as fast as a dash) but things people can practice?

Fly into class C airspace if ATC allows it to get used to talking on the radio but other than that, not much no.

[yowflyer23]

Most new hires on the Q end up with YYC. Some will transfer during course to YVR. There are some who later transfer to YYZ through standing bid. Not sure about the RJ, but imagine close to the same. As for Embraer, they end up with either YUL or YYZ.

I doubt thinking you can do a DEC to any 705 carrier without any previous command experience, and I mean a decent amount of 705 is a viable thought. Those who tried at Jazz failed the training.

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

Do you or anyone here have advice for the 172 instructors on how to be more competent or what to work on before jumping into the 705 world? I know some things are hard to practice before you get there (good luck getting a 172 to have a FB or fly as fast as a dash) but things people can practice?

Sounds ridiculous but I used to do a lot of flying on my desktop flight simulator using paid aircraft mods that had an FMS and true to life systems modelling, such as the PMDG 737. That gave me some exposure to FMS and auto flight logic which turned out to be very helpful to me during training. Some people struggle to wrap their heads around that initially. It also somewhat prepared me for the faster pace of flying jets.

And yeah if flying in class C isn’t an option, at least give a listen to liveatc.net at the airports you may be flying into so you have an idea of what you can expect over the comms. Some places like LGA are not by the book at all.

My last recommendation would be watching those cockpit vidoes by Just Planes. They even have some series with Jazz and AC on the E175 back when they operated them. I found it to be good exposure on two crew operations/crm.

[lostav8r]

Truthfully, higher time instructors are struggling to make it through initial training as FO, ask any who have come through recently, they will tell you going from bombing around in a single piston to EFIS, FMS, Flight director, etc at 3-4 miles a minute is no easy transition. I get to witness this first hand and the general discussion amongst training pilots is that our job is so much harder than it used to be and it’s like teaching ab-initio pilots, the basics of flying an airplane seem to get lost in the mix. The other common expression, they don’t know what they don’t know.
When I get a new hire with 750-1000 in a king air or 1900 FO time, I generally go in thinking it’s going to be a good day, 172 instructors not so much

Do you or anyone here have advice for the 172 instructors on how to be more competent or what to work on before jumping into the 705 world? I know some things are hard to practice before you get there (good luck getting a 172 to have a FB or fly as fast as a dash) but things people can practice?

Sounds ridiculous but I used to do a lot of flying on my desktop flight simulator using paid aircraft mods that had an FMS and true to life systems modelling, such as the PMDG 737. That gave me some exposure to FMS and auto flight logic which turned out to be very helpful to me during training. Some people struggle to wrap their heads around that initially. It also somewhat prepared me for the faster pace of flying jets.

And yeah if flying in class C isn’t an option, at least give a listen to liveatc.net at the airports you may be flying into so you have an idea of what you can expect over the comms. Some places like LGA are not by the book at all.

My last recommendation would be watching those cockpit vidoes by Just Planes. They even have some series with Jazz and AC on the E175 back when they operated them. I found it to be good exposure on two crew operations/crm.

Thanks! Even if the systems knowledge doesn't transfer (practicing on a CRJ when you fly the bus) that actually does help with the timing and other real world issues!