khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:48 am
With respect Bede, are you seriously trying to argue that the holes in the top end of the pay scale are bigger than the FO's who can't pay their bills living off a LoC?
Not at all. There's holes all over the place. Lots of them, and big. But, to be honest, I'm still confused why pilots accepted a job at Air Canada knowing that the pay was insufficient to pay the bills. The reason is that they weighed the options and felt that the long term gain was worth the short term pain. Nothing has changed on that front, unfortunately.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:48 am
FO's are bordering on the poverty line. And if what you are saying is true, why not split the 120k in salary increase right down the middle? Do you really think the captains needed a salary improvment BIGGER than the FO's entire salary?
I wouldn't say FO's are bordering on the poverty line. I know people who live in poverty. Their standard of living is far, far below a new hire AC pilot.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:48 am
A big salary bump today is worth WAY more than a huge salary bump in 12 years. As I said before, no one knows how inflation will go and those yr 12 numbers will need to be adjusted several times by the time a pilot starting today reaches year 12.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:48 am
If what you say is true, and the focus should be in one area that is lacking, the captains should have received 0, and the FO's gotten 120k increase.
That's a good point - the Net Present Value of any salary increases. You triggered me into calculating that. Given your assumptions, the breakeven discount rate for 10 years is 3.7%. I think discount rates between 3-4% are the norm in Ontario. If you look at anything beyond 10 years, paying the senior pilots more makes more financial sense than distributing the gains equally.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:48 am
Remember that your RP and FO does the same job as you while you are sleeping in your bunk on the way to Dubai. I have ZERO sympathy for a 12 year triple captain making 250k while the FO's are living on LoC. They aren't having any problems paying their bills.
Just to be clear, I'm not a 777 captain, I'm just a lowly 737 CA at WJA.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:48 am
With respect Bede, are you seriously trying to argue that the holes in the top end of the pay scale are bigger than the FO's who can't pay their bills living off a LoC?
Not at all. There's holes all over the place. Lots of them, and big. But, to be honest, I'm still confused why pilots accepted a job at Air Canada knowing that the pay was insufficient to pay the bills. The reason is that they weighed the options and felt that the long term gain was worth the short term pain. Nothing has changed on that front, unfortunately.
At least the ones hired in the last 2 years could realistically expect a significant increase in salary with a new contract in -at the time- economic prosperous times. I don't think anyone expected this low an increase for the new hires.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Bede wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:57 am
FO's are bordering on the poverty line. And if what you are saying is true, why not split the 120k in salary increase right down the middle? Do you really think the captains needed a salary improvment BIGGER than the FO's entire salary?
I wouldn't say FO's are bordering on the poverty line. I know people who live in poverty. Their standard of living is far, far below a new hire AC pilot.
[/quote]
As far as I know, poverty rate in Ontario sits around 27k for a single person, 60k for a family. I bet in YYZ, YUL, YVR that number is higher. So while not an exact science, and while I'm sure a lot of people don't expect to raise a family on 60K while they work for AC, my statement is fairly accurate. Even a single person would have a hard time living in the GTA on 60k. They would be sharing an apartment thats for sure.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:33 pm
As far as I know, poverty rate in Ontario sits around 27k for a single person, 60k for a family. I bet in YYZ, YUL, YVR that number is higher. So while not an exact science, and while I'm sure a lot of people don't expect to raise a family on 60K while they work for AC, my statement is fairly accurate. Even a single person would have a hard time living in the GTA on 60k. They would be sharing an apartment thats for sure.
Advancement to the Left Seat has never been quicker, 2 years (or so) to a 220 Captaincy in YZ. You have options to get off flat pay, heaven forbid you may have to work for it, or worse yet relocate. Looks to me like that is a $260K / year posting.
When during the interview were you promised that commuting from YC to VR was a guarantee?
There is an expectation (entitlement) to a 9 day overseas Block on a Widebody.
Stu Pidasso wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:47 pm
Advancement to the Left Seat has never been quicker, 2 years (or so) to a 220 Captaincy in YZ. You have options to get off flat pay, heaven forbid you may have to work for it, or worse yet relocate. Looks to me like that is a $260K / year posting.
When during the interview were you promised that commuting from YC to VR was a guarantee?
There is an expectation (entitlement) to a 9 day overseas Block on a Widebody.
How did justifying low FO pay due to "quick upgrades" work out at Flair?
Stu Pidasso wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:47 pm
Advancement to the Left Seat has never been quicker, 2 years (or so) to a 220 Captaincy in YZ. You have options to get off flat pay, heaven forbid you may have to work for it, or worse yet relocate. Looks to me like that is a $260K / year posting.
When during the interview were you promised that commuting from YC to VR was a guarantee?
There is an expectation (entitlement) to a 9 day overseas Block on a Widebody.
How did justifying low FO pay due to "quick upgrades" work out at Flair?
The music always stops at some point....
22 (net growth) aircraft in 2025, mostly NB.
Firm orders for; 24 321XLR, 18 787-10, 8 more 737-8, and 15 more A220.
If the FO position becomes stagnant it will be after 2027. The deal is underwhelming but there has never been a better era to get hired at AC than post 2022 (who will feel the most left out in the cold with this TA).
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:33 pm
As far as I know, poverty rate in Ontario sits around 27k for a single person, 60k for a family. I bet in YYZ, YUL, YVR that number is higher. So while not an exact science, and while I'm sure a lot of people don't expect to raise a family on 60K while they work for AC, my statement is fairly accurate. Even a single person would have a hard time living in the GTA on 60k. They would be sharing an apartment thats for sure.
Thanks for that Bede. So... I'm not far off huh? 46k for a family of 4 in 2022 in a large city. Gotta be close to 50-54k in 2024. Inflation really took off in 2023.
Stu Pidasso wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:47 pm
Advancement to the Left Seat has never been quicker, 2 years (or so) to a 220 Captaincy in YZ. You have options to get off flat pay, heaven forbid you may have to work for it, or worse yet relocate. Looks to me like that is a $260K / year posting.
When during the interview were you promised that commuting from YC to VR was a guarantee?
There is an expectation (entitlement) to a 9 day overseas Block on a Widebody.
How did justifying low FO pay due to "quick upgrades" work out at Flair?
The music always stops at some point....
22 (net growth) aircraft in 2025, mostly NB.
Firm orders for; 24 321XLR, 18 787-10, 8 more 737-8, and 15 more A220.
If the FO position becomes stagnant it will be after 2027. The deal is underwhelming but there has never been a better era to get hired at AC than post 2022 (who will feel the most left out in the cold with this TA).
Remember COVID? 2008/09? 9/11? You can't count on a quick upgrade.
You're right, if it all goes according to plan, people currently on property will have a lucrative career. But there's no guarantee and with stories of pilots going into debt to work at Big Red, it seems a bit ridiculous to count on a quick upgrade.
How did justifying low FO pay due to "quick upgrades" work out at Flair?
The music always stops at some point....
22 (net growth) aircraft in 2025, mostly NB.
Firm orders for; 24 321XLR, 18 787-10, 8 more 737-8, and 15 more A220.
If the FO position becomes stagnant it will be after 2027. The deal is underwhelming but there has never been a better era to get hired at AC than post 2022 (who will feel the most left out in the cold with this TA).
Remember COVID? 2008/09? 9/11? You can't count on a quick upgrade.
You're right, if it all goes according to plan, people currently on property will have a lucrative career. But there's no guarantee and with stories of pilots going into debt to work at Big Red, it seems a bit ridiculous to count on a quick upgrade.
And who will come there for that money? 1000 pilots in the next couple years... good luck!
I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.
They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here. Air Canada management is the problem.
They don't think you are worth it and conspired with their government golf buddies to allow them to dig into their position.
The Lie-berals said they weren't going to interfere, but interfere they did, they didn't care about us getting a fair deal, they just wanted any deal and threatened ACA leadership with action including arbitration that would have essentially erased the past 16 months of work.
Were missteps made given the situation at the time? It doesn't matter, none of us could have known the right move in the moment.
We need to move forward as a united group. Get over what happened. Support your MEC and stick together. That is the only way forward. That's what got us to this moment. Recalling and firing will lead to us losing everything we have built up to now.
Could you imagine if this was still ACPA? Aside from the fact that we would have had a shit sandwich deal last year, if it was now the vote would already be open and the sell job would be on. That's not what's happening here.
Vote it down, but keep the faith, and let's go get the rest of what we need to make this a WCC.
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:47 pmWe need to move forward as a united group. Get over what happened. Support your MEC and stick together. That is the only way forward. That's what got us to this moment. Recalling and firing will lead to us losing everything we have built up to now.
Could you imagine if this was still ACPA? Aside from the fact that we would have had a shit sandwich deal last year, if it was now the vote would already be open and the sell job would be on. That's not what's happening here.
Vote it down, but keep the faith, and let's go get the rest of what we need to make this a WCC.
Well said. Give them a renewed mandate, and let them use their recent experience to go back to the table for more. Fix much of the QOL issues and the first few years of FO pay.
I wanted Delta this round, but I believe that is off the table from what I have come to understand. It was a leap too far in one cycle.
We've set the baseline with this TA, if we vote it down, we come back and tweak the parts that need the most work. The FO formula, first year pay, adjust that daily guarantee/vacation improvement and timeline and move forward.
Then 2026 is on us and we're back again and building on this.
I’m sorry folks, but if this is voted down, you absolutely will be referred to the Labour board by the minister and arbitrated. If by some miracle the board says it doesn’t have jurisdiction or whatever random thought of the day, there will be back to work legislation that will pass, with the support of at least the Bloc.
The public knows you are voting on a cumulative 42% raise. They already thought 30% was more than generous. I think the negotiating ship has sailed
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:47 pm
I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.
They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here.
I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?
This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.
The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.
I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:47 pm
I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.
They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here.
I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?
This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.
The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.
I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.
I get that everyone is angry, but don't be so quick to throw the MEC under the bus. I guarantee the MoL was sitting in and participating this last weekend.
---------------------
Vote on Employer’s Offer
Marginal note:Minister may order vote to be held
108.1 (1) Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part, and the Minister is of the opinion that it is in the public interest that the employees in the affected bargaining unit be given the opportunity to accept or reject the offer of the employer last received by the trade union in respect of all matters remaining in dispute between the parties, the Minister may
(a) on such terms and conditions as the Minister considers appropriate, direct that a vote of the employees in the bargaining unit to accept or reject the offer be held as soon as possible; and
(b) designate the Board, or any other person or body, to be in charge of conducting that vote.
altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:47 pm
I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.
They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here.
I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?
This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.
The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.
I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.
I get that everyone is angry, but don't be so quick to throw the MEC under the bus. I guarantee the MoL was sitting in and participating this last weekend.
---------------------
Vote on Employer’s Offer
Marginal note:Minister may order vote to be held
108.1 (1) Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part, and the Minister is of the opinion that it is in the public interest that the employees in the affected bargaining unit be given the opportunity to accept or reject the offer of the employer last received by the trade union in respect of all matters remaining in dispute between the parties, the Minister may
(a) on such terms and conditions as the Minister considers appropriate, direct that a vote of the employees in the bargaining unit to accept or reject the offer be held as soon as possible; and
(b) designate the Board, or any other person or body, to be in charge of conducting that vote.
If that was invoked, why wouldn't the MEC come out and say that right away? Why wouldn't they go to the media and disclose that the minister forced a deal?
It's not that hard to infer... Because that would probably be bargaining in bad faith. Obviously if the MEC came right out and said they were forced to release this, everyone would assume it automatically stinks.
sstaurus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:25 am
It's not that hard to infer... Because that would probably be bargaining in bad faith. Obviously if the MEC came right out and said they were forced to release this, everyone would assume it automatically stinks.
But it does stink. Worse than anything I've ever smelled.
