Why all the gnashing of teeth??

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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

So if I understand this correctly, this movement began in the late 2010s, crystallized in the 2020s with the P4C group. That group slowly pushed their agenda and eventually the movement grew into "let's get rid of ACPA" because ACPA was the root of all evil in the pilot CA.

A campaign was started and it culminated in ALPA winning the certification vote. After all, ALPA pilots are better and different than ACPA ones. New elections and P4C incumbents all made up the LECs and MEC. A new MEC and MEC chair was voted in. This was all done by the pilot group. ALPA was the solution to the sub-prime contracts since 2000.

The new MEC chair and Negots committee set off on their quest to seek a world class contract.

US legacy airlines were used as the comparator group, and adding current currency exchange rates, a world class contract meant that wages would rise maybe 80-100%.

Rallies and pub nights and pickets and votes were held. 98% x 98%.

let those number sink in.

Promises continued and no cent was to be left on the table. After all, ALPA was here.

So reality starts to kick in. Updates on negots provided little substantial info. The politicians pontificated about whether labor should be allowed to strike. They said they should, but their presence was certainly there. The federal mediators failed, the 21 day cooling off period didn't result in a WCC. The week before the TA, a subtle changing of wording from the MEC Chair/Negots and people noticed that. The 72 hr notice was almost upon us...and VOILA.... a TA.

VOILA....the trust, unity and good will of the pilot group vanished faster than a rat escaping from an aqueduct.

Within hours of the release of the executive summary the outrage is palpable from the on-line warriors.

THIS WAS NOT A WCC. this was garbage. they sold us out. they were forced to sign the TA. The conspiracy theorists jumped out of the woodwork.


ETC ETC ETC

So what can one surmise from all of this.

The pilot group even when given a blank slate and the best economic opportunity in 20 years f@#!ked this up. Don't blame the MEC, the chair or the Negots committtee. They were in the room, No one else was. They had all the survey data, they signed the NDAs. And they did what they thought best.

It appears that a lot of the vocal (or should I say) heavy typers on the on-line forums suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. They aren't going to negotiate or compromise. They wanted AC to be taken hostage.

If this group had the opportunity to design the ballot it would look like this

Do you support the TA as negotiated?

⭕️ YES
⭕️ Hell NO
⭕️ Easy NO
⭕️ Hard NO
⭕️ Never
⭕️ I'll quit and go to the US before I support this
⭕️ I've never voted yes since ________.


Bottom line is that the MEC Chair and the MEC over-promised and under-delivered.

This was totally foreseeable.

If people thought that they were going to get 80 or 100% raises then they should be visiting a psychiatrist after getting a little Canadian labour education. That was never going to happen.

What will happen now?

Good question! If you vote NO it's because you either think there's a better deal to be had or you want to give a big FU to AC (aka Carnie W).
The Negots committee has told you they have done the best they can. This is a business deal. It's all about the money. I would assume that if the deal fails to pass, the NC, the MEC chair and most of the MEC will resign. Then we will be into months of elections to replace those people, standing up a new Negots team and then new surveys etc etc etc...The strike vote mandate will have expired and the whole fed labour law of conciliation and medication, cooling off period...will start again.

Meanwhile the contract will stay the same. No raises for anyone including the flat pay group. New negotiations don't pay bills.

Then there is the spectre of the Feds getting involved. Wait til you try and stand in front of an arbitrator and tell them what we turned down. If this had gone to arbitration before the TA, I would bet a month of RippleRock's salary that no arbitrator would award a 41.7% contract. How many labour groups have won significant improvements in their CAs after turning down a TA? No Canadian group has ever closed the gap between this TA and what the pilots seem to think they deserve. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.
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Last edited by Lt. Daniel Kaffee on Thu Sep 26, 2024 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Victory
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Victory »

I'll just keep replacing MECs as long as I have to.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 2:17 pm I would bet a month or RippleRock's salary
Because you make Ripplerock salary in one month.
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mervinmerv
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by mervinmerv »

It is a low blow to blame those seeking a better life and tell them it is their own fault for trying and that they should have known better. Many would agree they feel betrayed by their ALPA representatives in this moment. In what world would they be voting yes in support? Who can expect this of them? The scales are tipping from those inclined to take it laying down to those willing to fight for more despite the risks and endless fear tactics. These feelings will be carried forward to all future contract negotiations, it is important for the company to try and beat this out of them now. Many of the nos will be coming from those with 25+ years left at the company, the others from those who are tired of being undervalued by the company that demands so much from them. If the first team isn’t up for the challenge send a new one in. Hard things take hard work and time, many are willing to wait. Pilots are paying their union representatives to do a job for them and they have every right to demand more. The union can argue until they are blue in the face that this is the best they can do but the pilots have the final say. At this point no body can argue with any certainty that this TA satisfies 50%+1. Is fear a valid reason to concede? Can’t blame anyone who says yes, but at least call it what it is. No one is voting yes because they think this is a great TA.
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RippleRock
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by RippleRock »

..
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Last edited by RippleRock on Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by RippleRock »

.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by RippleRock »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 2:17 pm So if I understand this correctly, this movement began in the late 2010s, crystallized in the 2020s with the P4C group. That group slowly pushed their agenda and eventually the movement grew into "let's get rid of ACPA" because ACPA was the root of all evil in the pilot CA.

A campaign was started and it culminated in ALPA winning the certification vote. After all, ALPA pilots are better and different than ACPA ones. New elections and P4C incumbents all made up the LECs and MEC. A new MEC and MEC chair was voted in. This was all done by the pilot group. ALPA was the solution to the sub-prime contracts since 2000.

The new MEC chair and Negots committee set off on their quest to seek a world class contract.

US legacy airlines were used as the comparator group, and adding current currency exchange rates, a world class contract meant that wages would rise maybe 80-100%.

Rallies and pub nights and pickets and votes were held. 98% x 98%.

let those number sink in.

Promises continued and no cent was to be left on the table. After all, ALPA was here.

So reality starts to kick in. Updates on negots provided little substantial info. The politicians pontificated about whether labor should be allowed to strike. They said they should, but their presence was certainly there. The federal mediators failed, the 21 day cooling off period didn't result in a WCC. The week before the TA, a subtle changing of wording from the MEC Chair/Negots and people noticed that. The 72 hr notice was almost upon us...and VOILA.... a TA.

VOILA....the trust, unity and good will of the pilot group vanished faster than a rat escaping from an aqueduct.

Within hours of the release of the executive summary the outrage is palpable from the on-line warriors.

THIS WAS NOT A WCC. this was garbage. they sold us out. they were forced to sign the TA. The conspiracy theorists jumped out of the woodwork.


ETC ETC ETC

So what can one surmise from all of this.

The pilot group even when given a blank slate and the best economic opportunity in 20 years f@#!ked this up. Don't blame the MEC, the chair or the Negots committtee. They were in the room, No one else was. They had all the survey data, they signed the NDAs. And they did what they thought best.

It appears that a lot of the vocal (or should I say) heavy typers on the on-line forums suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. They aren't going to negotiate or compromise. They wanted AC to be taken hostage.

If this group had the opportunity to design the ballot it would look like this

Do you support the TA as negotiated?

⭕️ YES
⭕️ Hell NO
⭕️ Easy NO
⭕️ Hard NO
⭕️ Never
⭕️ I'll quit and go to the US before I support this
⭕️ I've never voted yes since ________.


Bottom line is that the MEC Chair and the MEC over-promised and under-delivered.

This was totally foreseeable.

If people thought that they were going to get 80 or 100% raises then they should be visiting a psychiatrist after getting a little Canadian labour education. That was never going to happen.

What will happen now?

Good question! If you vote NO it's because you either think there's a better deal to be had or you want to give a big FU to AC (aka Carnie W).
The Negots committee has told you they have done the best they can. This is a business deal. It's all about the money. I would assume that if the deal fails to pass, the NC, the MEC chair and most of the MEC will resign. Then we will be into months of elections to replace those people, standing up a new Negots team and then new surveys etc etc etc...The strike vote mandate will have expired and the whole fed labour law of conciliation and medication, cooling off period...will start again.

Meanwhile the contract will stay the same. No raises for anyone including the flat pay group. New negotiations don't pay bills.

Then there is the spectre of the Feds getting involved. Wait til you try and stand in front of an arbitrator and tell them what we turned down. If this had gone to arbitration before the TA, I would bet a month of RippleRock's salary that no arbitrator would award a 41.7% contract. How many labour groups have won significant improvements in their CAs after turning down a TA? No Canadian group has ever closed the gap between this TA and what the pilots seem to think they deserve. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

Just here to gloat obviously. I'd have thought you classier if you didn't. Too hard to resist. Too tough to "put the Mike down".

Could you have done us better? We both know the answer.

How's the "line flying" treating you? A tad lonely? Thought so, know so.



BTW, enjoy your raise. Triple 12 year pretty lucrative now, remember the Nav and Overseas went up 26%, and it's on top of your shiny new hourly......$$$$$$$ You'd better be buying for your crew.

If we're ever on a layover somewhere, LHR perhaps, I promise to be your friend for a day! :rolleyes:
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Core
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Core »

I'm just sick of perpetuating this "Hey it'll be great if you got hired at 25 and you'll start enjoying your life in 20 years!"

What a ridiculous industry.

My take?
Cut year 2 and 3 right out of the scale.
Max working days 16 no matter what. Adjust hourly to reflect the same gain with 80 hrs block.
Training included in block.
Peripherals such as better passes, maybe a let for using them for commuting instead of silly standby conditions for commuting.

Now, it sounds like a flag airline and not one riddled with concessions and Canadian discounts.

Currently I only have 20 years to go and despite the fact I would go to AC, (Had interview offer for several years now) the conditions are too crappy at the bottom for too long to justify the pay cut at the same time. One or the other, not both. Strange not to be able to take a job at the top airline because of the wawcon. You guys work as much as I did at a regional and that took over my entire life.

Again, what a messed up industry, not taking a job because 20 years isn't enough... and this garbage is driven by the "top". AC.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

“HOLD THE LINE”
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Just here to gloat obviously.
On the contrary....just here to remind the pilot group that started this movement that they are no better, no worse than the ACPA pilots who preceded them.

Carnie...you're hung up on the fact that I am an exACPA official. You couldn't be further from the truth but if it makes you feel better thinking that, go for it.

I am just revelling in the fact that we get to pay 1.8% of our salary now to ALPA, with a significant portion heading south of the border...and all for what? The same result...

This group was divided when the P4C/Jazz contingent decided that they knew better and threw the baby out with the bath water...there were lots of lessons to be learned from 2011/2012 and the group said "don't bother us with stupid details, we got rid of ACPA and we won't make the same mistakes".

Image
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Torontomaplelaughs
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

For the TLDR crowd:

Angry old ACPA hack that instead of just enjoying his time at the cottage and his hefty pay raise...would rather reminisce on the good old days of failure
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thepoors
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by thepoors »

To be fair, the way this has been handled since the 15th isn't far off from an ACPA shitshow. The shift to a complete lack of transparency and purposeful gaslighting is alarming. The MEC is hiding behind NDAs that may or may not exist, presenting "FACTS" that are clearly biased, and fear mongering to sway a yes vote.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

For the TLDR crowd:
GIven your nom de keyboard, I would have thought you were the epitome of overpromising and under-delivering.

You and Carnie can go on thinking I was an ACPA elected rep...never have been, but you let that live rent free in your head for as long as you want.

The fact that you have nothing to say expect a poor attempt at trying to attack the person, aka ad hominem argument, demonstrates that lack of thought and reason in your current untenable position!
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30westpirate
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by 30westpirate »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:34 pm
Just here to gloat obviously.
On the contrary....just here to remind the pilot group that started this movement that they are no better, no worse than the ACPA pilots who preceded them.

Carnie...you're hung up on the fact that I am an exACPA official. You couldn't be further from the truth but if it makes you feel better thinking that, go for it.

I am just revelling in the fact that we get to pay 1.8% of our salary now to ALPA, with a significant portion heading south of the border...and all for what? The same result...

This group was divided when the P4C/Jazz contingent decided that they knew better and threw the baby out with the bath water...there were lots of lessons to be learned from 2011/2012 and the group said "don't bother us with stupid details, we got rid of ACPA and we won't make the same mistakes".

Image
This TA might not be perfect but it’s a day and night difference between what ACPA would have delivered.

The crooks running ACPA took pay-rates that were reduced in 2012 by 20-30% and gave them a whopping 2% a year and called it a win. Effectively giving the company a pay increase holiday on FO and RP wages for 14 years. ACPA’s favourite slogan ‘cost-neutral bargaining’ all under a burning platform mentality ‘you think we can do better in 2016’

It was because they were too busy picking out their management office furniture than actually negotiating. Or out shopping for a cottage.

Did ACPA fix 4 year flat pay in 2014?
Did ACPA deliver any QOL improvements in 2014?
Did ACPA increase vacation credits or daily min guarantee in 2014?

NOPE
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by RippleRock »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:58 am
For the TLDR crowd:
GIven your nom de keyboard, I would have thought you were the epitome of overpromising and under-delivering.

You and Carnie can go on thinking I was an ACPA elected rep...never have been, but you let that live rent free in your head for as long as you want.

The fact that you have nothing to say expect a poor attempt at trying to attack the person, aka ad hominem argument, demonstrates that lack of thought and reason in your current untenable position!
You can go on thinking I'm CW. Not even close, different base. He's actually a nice guy. I'm not.

You may not be MM, but your Avatar sure suits him. What you are is a shill for the most corrupt, collusional, yellow, useless organization to ever haunt Canadian aviation.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Jean-Pierre »

I think it is the fighter jet guy that had mental health problems.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by RippleRock »

.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Fri Sep 27, 2024 6:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by RippleRock »

Jean-Pierre wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:41 pm I think it is the fighter jet guy that had mental health problems.
TL was a standup guy. Brilliant. He knew ACPA was corrupt, through and through.
He was "hung" by the MEC of the day. It was tragic. I don't think he had "mental problems", just too much passion, and he detested what ACPA was doing, right to his core.

He was tried and convicted of "knowing too much".

Hope he's well. The farther he is from this trash talk the better.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Fri Sep 27, 2024 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Nice to hear.
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by Flyboy736 »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:34 pm
Just here to gloat obviously.
On the contrary....just here to remind the pilot group that started this movement that they are no better, no worse than the ACPA pilots who preceded them.

Carnie...you're hung up on the fact that I am an exACPA official. You couldn't be further from the truth but if it makes you feel better thinking that, go for it.

I am just revelling in the fact that we get to pay 1.8% of our salary now to ALPA, with a significant portion heading south of the border...and all for what? The same result...

This group was divided when the P4C/Jazz contingent decided that they knew better and threw the baby out with the bath water...there were lots of lessons to be learned from 2011/2012 and the group said "don't bother us with stupid details, we got rid of ACPA and we won't make the same mistakes".

Image
We all know that ACPA would have presented that 30% raise contract as the best they could do, ALPA brought it up to 42%. So no they are not the same. FYI 1.8% is tax deductible so if your upper tax bracket is Captain wages you are paying 0.9% or less- a 0.4% increase from ACPA if I'm not mistaken
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CaliforniaDreamin
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by CaliforniaDreamin »

[quote=30westpirate post_id=1320105


Did ACPA fix 4 year flat pay in 2014?
Did ACPA deliver any QOL improvements in 2014?
Did ACPA increase vacation credits or daily min guarantee in 2014?

NOPE
[/quote]

Did ALPA fix 4 year flat pay in 2024?

Nope...they negotiated worse than the MOA which got rid of 2 years of flat pay

Did ALPA deliver any QOL improvements in 2014?

Nope...they got Avg Daily Credit of 4:30 in 2027. They kept 4:1 TAFB which is the worst in the industry.

Did ALPA increase vacation credits or daily min guarantee in 2014?

They got vacation credit improvements in 2027. Still below a day worth of credit. So...nope
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30westpirate
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by 30westpirate »

CaliforniaDreamin wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 3:12 pm [quote=30westpirate post_id=1320105


Did ACPA fix 4 year flat pay in 2014?
Did ACPA deliver any QOL improvements in 2014?
Did ACPA increase vacation credits or daily min guarantee in 2014?

NOPE
Did ALPA fix 4 year flat pay in 2024?

Nope...they negotiated worse than the MOA which got rid of 2 years of flat pay

Did ALPA deliver any QOL improvements in 2014?

Nope...they got Avg Daily Credit of 4:30 in 2027. They kept 4:1 TAFB which is the worst in the industry.

Did ALPA increase vacation credits or daily min guarantee in 2014?

They got vacation credit improvements in 2027. Still below a day worth of credit. So...nope
[/quote]


— have you even read the TA? 4 additional SDOs, commuter policy, bidding for RAPs, no more TDOs, a proper trip trade system which will allow pairing drops and swaps with open time, reserve release.

These are all QOL increases.

— 1st year pay is higher than the MOA, it falls short of other airlines but it’s a 60% increase.


You’re fooling yourself if you think ACPA would’ve even gotten a 30% increase package. They would’ve came back with a subpar increase probably below 10% and a promise of massive growth.
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ItsGoodEnough
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by ItsGoodEnough »

Read the TA.
Learn from past history.

If you truly feel you deserve and are entitled to more….hold your nose and vote yes. This is a solid building block for the next negotiation which starts in 2.5 years.

This is a yes vote.
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BrassCraft
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by BrassCraft »

ItsGoodEnough wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:52 am Read the TA.
Learn from past history.

If you truly feel you deserve and are entitled to more….hold your nose and vote yes. This is a solid building block for the next negotiation which starts in 2.5 years.

This is a yes vote.
You must be a joy to work with.
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itsgrosswhatinet
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Re: Why all the gnashing of teeth??

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

ItsGoodEnough wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:52 am Read the TA.
Learn from past history.

If you truly feel you deserve and are entitled to more….hold your nose and vote yes. This is a solid building block for the next negotiation which starts in 2.5 years.

This is a yes vote.

No, 6 posts, I don't think I will.
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