Pilot unity will get results

[Dockjock]

Just close the base already, to have 50 pilots with this much influence over our entire group is insane. Short of that we need (another) overhaul of our representation structure. This is outrageous. Guaranteed there was pressure placed that YWG would close, and that secured the votes. Smart move by the airline, the gift that keeps on giving.

[RippleRock]

The senior pilots are already picking out the colour of their new boats.

Talking about unity as an outsider. I remember Ripplerock's many posts about world class contract. Now after the TA, I'm not seeing a single post from him (or did I missed them?) I'm going to take it that he was a captain and that he is more than happy with the colour of his new boat while FO's keep enjoying their mac and cheese

I take offense to the Mac and Cheese comment. No FO or RP that has ever flown with me has ever bought a pint, and rarely dinner.

Here is my current position. We were all blindsided by our union. 1000%. Just when you thought there were no more WTF moments, they haven't even completed negotiating yet!!! There are changes are occurring daily, no doubt to "vote buy"....a common and well know ACPA/Company collusion tactic used to "push" contracts across the finish line at 51%.

Vote buying....another WTF.... AGAIN! Nothing has changed. Everything that has occurred since the 14th of October is right out of the old ACPA playbook. My "Hold the Line" comment was a waste of bandwidth, nothing more. We got nowhere near "Holding" anything, no chance.

I am a fool. I thought this would be different with the P4C pilots and ALPA. Nothing like ACPA at all. Wrong.


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Formerly posted by me a few days ago....



I would have liked nothing more than sending a big FU in the form of a strike. Nothing more, but the ideal time was last week.

It's GONE.

Now unity is fracturing, we have a split MEC, a leader who is threatening resignation AND voting yes, Brad Ridge running legal, Dumb and Dumber as negotiating leads.

How exactly is a NO vote going to benefit us??? I, among all of us WISH it would. Reality may be very different.

The first thing the company is going to do is shift money around at no cost to them. The second is they remove ratification pay, because they can. The third thing they will do is call their cronies in government to force arbitration, as "negotiations aren't going well, and the union is a mess and leaderless right now". Watch.

I can't fathom how anyone thinks Ralph, Evans and our "crack legal" BR are going to follow an ultimatum from the Membership and "just go get more". HOW? They didn't do it before when everything was tight and focused. Some seem to think that somehow the "will of the Membership" is going to cause some "seismic shift" that didn't occur before the 14th??? We had a 98% strike mandate for chrissake. That's NOT something you pitch in the bin....but our MEC did exactly that. Chew on that for a moment.

At best, there will be a 55% no vote. This will also be used as a club to force arbitration.


Frankly we are in a tight corner. The company knows it, the bulk of the Membership knows it, and the Minister of Labour knows it.



FWIW, The thing that really hurts is that Charlene is going to nullify MY no vote. What an unbelievable kick in the nuts.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

How the F does YWG gets 3 vote representing 50 pilots on this TA?

All senior , all voted yes. Half of the yes came from ywg

If we cleaned up all these nonsensical things in the union organization everything will start working more sensibly. It makes you wonder why these nonsensical things were put there in the first place.

[thepoors]

The senior pilots are already picking out the colour of their new boats.

Talking about unity as an outsider. I remember Ripplerock's many posts about world class contract. Now after the TA, I'm not seeing a single post from him (or did I missed them?) I'm going to take it that he was a captain and that he is more than happy with the colour of his new boat while FO's keep enjoying their mac and cheese

I take offense to the Mac and Cheese comment. No FO or RP that has ever flown with me has ever bought a pint, and rarely dinner.

Here is my current position. We were all blindsided by our union. 1000%. Just when you thought there were no more WTF moments, they haven't even completed negotiating yet!!! There are changes are occurring daily, no doubt to "vote buy"....a common and well know ACPA/Company collusion tactic used to "push" contracts across the finish line at 51%.

Vote buying....another WTF.... AGAIN! Nothing has changed. Everything that has occurred since the 14th of October is right out of the old ACPA playbook. My "Hold the Line" comment was a waste of bandwidth, nothing more. We got nowhere near "Holding" anything, no chance.

I am a fool. I thought this would be different with the P4C pilots and ALPA. Nothing like ACPA at all. Wrong.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Formerly posted by me a few days ago....



I would have liked nothing more than sending a big FU in the form of a strike. Nothing more, but the ideal time was last week.

It's GONE.

Now unity is fracturing, we have a split MEC, a leader who is threatening resignation AND voting yes, Brad Ridge running legal, Dumb and Dumber as negotiating leads.

How exactly is a NO vote going to benefit us??? I, among all of us WISH it would. Reality may be very different.

The first thing the company is going to do is shift money around at no cost to them. The second is they remove ratification pay, because they can. The third thing they will do is call their cronies in government to force arbitration, as "negotiations aren't going well, and the union is a mess and leaderless right now". Watch.

I can't fathom how anyone thinks Ralph, Evans and our "crack legal" BR are going to follow an ultimatum from the Membership and "just go get more". HOW? They didn't do it before when everything was tight and focused. Some seem to think that somehow the "will of the Membership" is going to cause some "seismic shift" that didn't occur before the 14th??? We had a 98% strike mandate for chrissake. That's NOT something you pitch in the bin....but our MEC did exactly that. Chew on that for a moment.

At best, there will be a 55% no vote. This will also be used as a club to force arbitration.


Frankly we are in a tight corner. The company knows it, the bulk of the Membership knows it, and the Minister of Labour knows it.



FWIW, The thing that really hurts is that Charlene is going to nullify MY no vote. What an unbelievable kick in the nuts.

You're not a fool. Nor is anyone who believed a world class contract was possible. We have been made to look like fools by this MEC.

They preyed on the hopes of the junior membership for better wages and on the seniors for better QOL. They played us masterfully. We expected this from the company. But the betrayal by our own union is worse, and hurts more, because it was so unexpected.

I hope people see this backstabbing for what it is and hold those responsible accountable. They need to be tossed out, shamed, and forbidden from ever having anything to do with the representation of this pilot group again.

[altiplano]

I wanted to keep supporting them, stay united, but they are making it impossible the way they are doubling down and pushing their agenda/narrative.

The sell job is hard to watch.

There's no listening or reflection happening here.

Whatever happens a change must come.

[mervinmerv]

It has been gutting to watch the wheels fall off like this. At the very least they could have remained professional, unbiased and transparent. The trust is gone and this whole thing has become bigger than the TA. Many are processing a breakup with their leadership instead of celebrating. Once the shock and emotions settle down it will become possible to pick up the pieces and reorganize and push forward. But for now it is a very hard pill to swallow.

[digits_]

It has been gutting to watch the wheels fall off like this.

Did anything new happen? Last public info was that the MEC chair supported the TA and is threatening to resign if there's a no vote. Anything new after that?

[mervinmerv]

The company is now offering a few slivers of improvement outside of the TA and negotiations. After telling everyone this is the very best deal they could get, the union is communicating these improvements as a way to sell the current TA and to diffuse some of the anger surrounding it. It doesn't matter if the company is offering these outside of formal negotiations, what matters is the union is using them to try to pass this TA, all while not formally include these improvements in the TA. Talk about mind games. They should be saying, hey everyone we were wrong, there is clearly more left on the table. The union can say they have the very best intentions, but it is clear they've bent in favour of the company.

[digits_]

The company is now offering a few slivers of improvement outside of the TA and negotiations. After telling everyone this is the very best deal they could get, the union is communicating these improvements as a way to sell the current TA and to diffuse some of the anger surrounding it. It doesn't matter if the company is offering these outside of formal negotiations, what matters is the union is using them to try to pass this TA, all while not formally include these improvements in the TA. Talk about mind games. They should be saying, hey everyone we were wrong, there is clearly more left on the table. The union can say they have the very best intentions, but it is clear they've bent in favour of the company.

Lol, that would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[Core]

The company is now offering a few slivers of improvement outside of the TA and negotiations. After telling everyone this is the very best deal they could get, the union is communicating these improvements as a way to sell the current TA and to diffuse some of the anger surrounding it. It doesn't matter if the company is offering these outside of formal negotiations, what matters is the union is using them to try to pass this TA, all while not formally include these improvements in the TA. Talk about mind games. They should be saying, hey everyone we were wrong, there is clearly more left on the table. The union can say they have the very best intentions, but it is clear they've bent in favour of the company.

If this is true, you all need to ask yourselves very seriously WHY the COMPANY would be trying to sweeten the deal to get this TA passed.

That in itself is dead proof they know it's nowhere near what could be achieved. If it were me it would be full stop- hard no! 10000x over.

[hithere]

Ok so what is it that the company has offered in addition to the TA to push this through? Let me guess… B1 passes?

[mervinmerv]

So far, to include the bottom 12 in the YOS grievance who were previously left out and reduced pass fees to align more with what the FAs already have. Are a few things that should have already been included enough to sway the vote just enough to pass? Doubt it.

[TCAS II]

Typical divide and conquer. Sad that just overnight the unity is now in question. What happened/was said by the company to spook the union? Understand the company only needs the pilots to vote 51% in favour, so obviously there was pressure to bring the TA to membership. Be interesting to know if there is enough to push AC pilots over the edge to accept or if it’s lacking. How much of it will be voted due to fear versus merits (or lack) of the TA?

[thepoors]

Typical divide and conquer. Sad that just overnight the unity is now in question. What happened/was said by the company to spook the union? Understand the company only needs the pilots to vote 51% in favour, so obviously there was pressure to bring the TA to membership. Be interesting to know if there is enough to push AC pilots over the edge to accept or if it’s lacking. How much of it will be voted due to fear versus merits (or lack) of the TA?

The fear is definitely taking hold. Hearing from a lot of guys that were a sure no initially are now swaying towards yes.

The big sticking point is the cowardly and unethical behaviour of the MEC Chair. If there is a no vote and she steps down, the union will be in a shambles. Easy for the company to ask for (and get) favourable arbitration under those circumstances.

The MEC have made it clear they have no desire to pursue further negotiations (at least out in the open) and will not advocate for the pilot group in the event of a no vote. They need to be removed before the vote closes so that we can have proper leadership in place. What's occurring at the moment is an unacceptable corruption of the negotiating process.

[Ash Ketchum]

I'm still a hard no. I would rather go down fighting than submit to fear.

[mervinmerv]

In reality there are three main parties at the table, though the relationships may be muddy enough to count as five - company, company/union, union, union/pilots, pilots. You could argue the government is also at the table however their support is up for debate in the current political climate.

The company wants this TA to pass for obvious reasons. The allotted bucket of money will be distributed and little will have to change regarding QOL and operations. It is interesting that they are trying to sweeten the pot though, this means four things 1. They know there is a chance this won’t pass. 2. They think it will be close enough to persuade it in their favour. 3. They are in discussion with the union regarding the matter. 4. There is more hidden in the pot. Pressure is increasing from the pilots.

The union is fully committed to sell this TA despite the heavy criticism from their members. The delivery has been unprofessional, biased and cracks have appeared. They spent over a year fostering unity and determination to achieve the pay and recognition every AC pilot deserves. It should not come as a shock to be met with rejection. They appear desperate and we may never know why, though it seems like fear won them over. In the end, for whatever reason, they chose to bring this TA to the group. Pressure is being self-imposed and by the company. Pilot pressure exists towards the union but is not being openly acknowledged other than with a threat of resignation.

There haven’t been many good arguments as to why the pilots want this to pass. The two main ones are money and fear. Money was always on the table, every single person expected to see a raise in the TA. The question is whether or not the money aligns with the expectations set by the pilots and the union. This money does not simply evaporate with a no vote. Many are experiencing fear, that they will get less than offered or forced with something else. Fear is a basic tactic used to tank confidence and spread doubt and it seems to be working. It is important to remember what you were asking for before money and fear clouded the water. Pressure is being self-imposed and applied by the union and therefore the company.

Not sure who is going to win here, but it seems like if applied the pressure from the pilots may move the needle more than any pressure the union or company currently has. The company and current union have every ability to reach an agreement the pilots will vote in favour of. Nowhere does it say that the union must be liked to get the job done, their job is to represent many more than just themselves. If the top is ready to quit, send the next in line in. If I was a betting man, this TA fails with 64% voting no. If I was an optimist, 80% vote no.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Neeraj....we get it...please leave if you're so unhappy.

[digits_]

When's the vote happening?

[Dash.Trash]

Typical divide and conquer. Sad that just overnight the unity is now in question. What happened/was said by the company to spook the union? Understand the company only needs the pilots to vote 51% in favour, so obviously there was pressure to bring the TA to membership. Be interesting to know if there is enough to push AC pilots over the edge to accept or if it’s lacking. How much of it will be voted due to fear versus merits (or lack) of the TA?

The fear is definitely taking hold. Hearing from a lot of guys that were a sure no initially are now swaying towards yes.

The big sticking point is the cowardly and unethical behaviour of the MEC Chair. If there is a no vote and she steps down, the union will be in a shambles. Easy for the company to ask for (and get) favourable arbitration under those circumstances.

The MEC have made it clear they have no desire to pursue further negotiations (at least out in the open) and will not advocate for the pilot group in the event of a no vote. They need to be removed before the vote closes so that we can have proper leadership in place. What's occurring at the moment is an unacceptable corruption of the negotiating process.

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Tell us how you really feel.

[Dias]

Well said, thepoors. Any union official that can't execute on a 98% strike mandate and massive pickets no longer has my vote.

[Bede]

The big sticking point is the cowardly and unethical behaviour of the MEC Chair. If there is a no vote and she steps down, the union will be in a shambles. Easy for the company to ask for (and get) favourable arbitration under those circumstances.

Do you ever wonder why you don't get to have good things? This is why. You clearly don't understand this process or how unions work. Your MEC chair didn't decide this. Your NC reported to the status reps that your TA is, in their opinion, the best they can achieve. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. It's then up to the status reps to decide what to do. They decide to send to vote or decide to call a strike. The MEC chair then takes direction from the status reps on whether to endorse the TA.

You don't like the TA- fine, that's your right, vote no. But you go on to impugn your chair's integrity by calling her unethical. Let me ask you, who in their right mind, who has any sort of the qualities you need, would step up to take the MEC chair knowing that they have to represent pilots like you?

[digits_]

You don't like the TA- fine, that's your right, vote no. But you go on to impugn your chair's integrity by calling her unethical. Let me ask you, who in their right mind, who has any sort of the qualities you need, would step up to take the MEC chair knowing that they have to represent pilots like you?

That's the thing though, the option to vote 'no' on the TA isn't really available anymore. It's either:
'Yes - accept the TA'
'No - blow up the union'

That choice is most definitely created by the MEC chair threatening to quit. Perhaps unethical might be too strong of a word, but it surely prevents a clean vote about the TA subject.

It would be completely different if the members get to vote first, and then the MEC chair would say 'you know what, after looking at the results, I don't think I can do this anymore, I am stepping down'. The end result is the same, but it would allow the members to vote solely based on the merits of the TA.

[thepoors]

The big sticking point is the cowardly and unethical behaviour of the MEC Chair. If there is a no vote and she steps down, the union will be in a shambles. Easy for the company to ask for (and get) favourable arbitration under those circumstances.

Do you ever wonder why you don't get to have good things? This is why. You clearly don't understand this process or how unions work. Your MEC chair didn't decide this. Your NC reported to the status reps that your TA is, in their opinion, the best they can achieve. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. It's then up to the status reps to decide what to do. They decide to send to vote or decide to call a strike. The MEC chair then takes direction from the status reps on whether to endorse the TA.

You don't like the TA- fine, that's your right, vote no. But you go on to impugn your chair's integrity by calling her unethical. Let me ask you, who in their right mind, who has any sort of the qualities you need, would step up to take the MEC chair knowing that they have to represent pilots like you?

Whether the TA should have been presented to the membership and what went on with the NC agreeing to it, and the MEC voting is another (also troubling) issue.

The Chair is behaving unethically. She is endorsing the TA despite it not being anything close to what she promised and is actually something she previously stated she would be opposed to. She is not in any way forced to endorse the TA even if the MEC does. Intentionally or not, she is swaying the vote with her statements. And most glaring, she is threatening to abandon her position at a critical time in negotiations. Which would completely compromise the union's legitimacy going forward and puts us in an impossible situation to gain any improvements.

She has effectively issued an ultimatum. And her integrity should absolutely be questioned for that. She signed up for the job to represent the entire pilot group, and as of late, her actions demonstrate that she isn't willing to.

Despite what you might think, a lot of us aren't going to just shut up and accept this.

[Canadaflyer46]

d64f8544-25a9-4614-9196-b02b25095a3d.jpeg (118.91 KiB) Viewed 1624 times

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Do you ever wonder why you don't get to have good things? This is why. You clearly don't understand this process or how unions work. Your MEC chair didn't decide this. Your NC reported to the status reps that your TA is, in their opinion, the best they can achieve. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. It's then up to the status reps to decide what to do. They decide to send to vote or decide to call a strike. The MEC chair then takes direction from the status reps on whether to endorse the TA.

You don't like the TA- fine, that's your right, vote no. But you go on to impugn your chair's integrity by calling her unethical. Let me ask you, who in their right mind, who has any sort of the qualities you need, would step up to take the MEC chair knowing that they have to represent pilots like you?

Here here....very well said.

Some ALPA - Air Canada pilots should read this over a few times and take heed.

For all the unhappy AC pilots, you should have listened a little more carefully at the various rallies in YYZ. ALPA reps from the USA told you that you would not achieve a Delta contract in bargaining round. They did it at least twice, at two different events. But you chose to ignore probably the most important thing that was said at the event.