67% yes

[bcflyer]

You didn't lose it, that amount was rolled into the new TAFB per diem system. Which overall is a 30% increase over the old system (tax fee).

“Rolled into” is another way of saying “used to finance the new increase” It’s not a 30% raise when you give up some else to get it.

Spoken like someone who's never talked to anyone on the negots committee.

Are you saying my statement is wrong? Posting a gain while giving something else up isn’t a complete gain. You don’t agree?

[ads-b]

People are inherently selfish. This contract catered to 67% of the pilot group. People didn’t vote yes because they were afraid. They voted yes because it best suited them.

Happens all the time.

Not necessarily. I benefit a ton from this TA going through. YOS gained back. Still voted no simply because I was willing to gamble that we could do better. I think there's a multitude of reasons why two thirds voted yes.

For sure there will be a small minority of captains voting no but If you look at your seniority and date of hire list, I bet 65-70% were getting a sizable bump.

If you want to believe they voted yes in fear that’s up to you.

I’ll leave you with these two points. 1 No one cares about you other than you. 2 right after the captain explains to you they voted yes out of fear watch how many of them are researching second properties, boats or a 911.

I’m not saying it’s bad. It is what it is. Human nature.

[co-joe]

If given the choice between money now, and having to fight for quality of life, pilots will always choose money now. At least WS got scope. The only winner in this ratification will be AC management. More money cannot increase job satisfaction, only reduce job dissatisfaction. ie it will make you hate your job less...for a time

[TheLastonetoknow]

The union who lied for over a year and sold out it's membership for these meager "gains?" And then fear mongered about arbitration to persuade a yes vote? Yeah, that one.

I make no apologies for supporting our union. My union speaks for me. They speak for me when I agree with them, and they speak for me when I don't. Welcome to trade unionism.

41% is not a meagre gain.

Ahhhhh WJ pilot mentality.

[Tbayer2021]

The union who lied for over a year and sold out it's membership for these meager "gains?" And then fear mongered about arbitration to persuade a yes vote? Yeah, that one.

I make no apologies for supporting our union. My union speaks for me. They speak for me when I agree with them, and they speak for me when I don't. Welcome to trade unionism.

41% is not a meagre gain.

Ahhhhh WJ pilot mentality.

Thats hilarious considering we just found out it is literally AC pilot mentality.

[Bede]

The union who lied for over a year and sold out it's membership for these meager "gains?" And then fear mongered about arbitration to persuade a yes vote? Yeah, that one.

I make no apologies for supporting our union. My union speaks for me. They speak for me when I agree with them, and they speak for me when I don't. Welcome to trade unionism.

41% is not a meagre gain.

Ahhhhh WJ pilot mentality.

You bet. What's the alternative? Turn on the union whenever they do things you don't like and join the mob?

Ever wonder why you've made no gains in the last 20 years?

[thepoors]

You raise a valid point, but I wouldn't call myself cheerleadering the agreement. TBH, I don't really like it, but not for the reasons that most of the posters on here are against it.

I will freely admit though I will cheerleader the union leadership at AC. If they say it's the best they can do, I would believe them. I

Like I said - shill.

I don't understand how you can defend this MEC/LEC in the vote for this TA and their actions since they presented it. It was a concerted effort to influence the membership into voting this in with what boils down to blackmail. These are not the actions of a union with their membership's interests at heart. They lied to our faces and squandered a position with the greatest leverage we ever had (or likely will have) to force a deal that benefits the company over its pilots.

Ok, thepoors, it’s time for you to put up or stfu, you have a couple years to get involved in the union and make a difference, show them how it’s done!

You won't catch me anywhere near that scummy organization. All they've produced is division after being given unprecedented unity by the pilot group. This result is only going to push people away and make the next round of bargaining even more difficult. They have lost all trust and credibility.

At least AC management has been consistent in their disdain for the pilots. ALPA pretends to be on our side, then backstabs us and throws us under the bus while declaring a "win." They are a bunch of charlatans. At this point I'd rather wear the company lanyard.

[Aerkavo]

At this point I'd rather wear the company lanyard.

Good idea. Let us know how it works out for you.

[Latitude]

As a year 2 WB FO I'm actually pleased with the result. Year 3-4 are a 100% pay increase vs the old CA, and brings much better per diems, better reserve rules, better insurances, a 20k back pay for year 1, etc. All that while working 10 days a month.

You cannot expect to gain absolutely everything in one contract.

Do I believe year 1-2 should be higher ? Yes. Do I believe there aren't enough QOL improvement ? For some equipment-seat, yes. But after 15 months and when the union tells you it's the best they could get, I believe it is a better idea to just secure it and come back at the table in less than 3 years.

[phenix]

The obvious reason that any WJ pilot would be a cheerleader for this agreement is the ability to use the (top scale) pay rates and pension contribution rates for benchmarking purposes when their own CBA opens.

WJ pilots already have QOL. You won’t see them asking for AC work rules or scheduling rules.

Duh, that's how pattern bargaining works, building on the strengths of each others collective agreements. WJ will fight to close their pay gap and we'll draw from their better QOL.

There won't be much of a gap to close.
If we look at the typical career evolution of a WJ pilot, say 8 years FO737, then 2 years FO787, then CPT737 until retirement, the average pay gap is around 5%, which is marginal at best. Top scale difference is 15$ an hour.
That contract allowed AC to catch up to Canadian standards, to get some solid gains on the WB, but isn't contributing much to pattern bargaining.

[cdnavater]

The obvious reason that any WJ pilot would be a cheerleader for this agreement is the ability to use the (top scale) pay rates and pension contribution rates for benchmarking purposes when their own CBA opens.

WJ pilots already have QOL. You won’t see them asking for AC work rules or scheduling rules.

Duh, that's how pattern bargaining works, building on the strengths of each others collective agreements. WJ will fight to close their pay gap and we'll draw from their better QOL.

There won't be much of a gap to close.
If we look at the typical career evolution of a WJ pilot, say 8 years FO737, then 2 years FO787, then CPT737 until retirement, the average pay gap is around 5%, which is marginal at best. Top scale difference is 15$ an hour.
That contract allowed AC to catch up to Canadian standards, to get some solid gains on the WB, but isn't contributing much to pattern bargaining.

Huh, I thought pattern bargaining was to exceed the other, not catch up!
AC gained 42% overall which put them ahead of WJ, both groups secured decent gains, hopefully with the pattern being improving, WJ should therefore do what they can to raise the bar, then AC, then WJ and so once

[thrust set]

I mentioned this before time to move on. If you’re frustrated with how things went join ALPA …..change the world.
I was looking at the 787 CPT wages at both AC and Westjet and maybe someone can correct me.
AC 389.96/hr + overseas approx 17/hr
WJ 335.25/hr

Seems to be a sizable difference when you add the overseas pay.
Is there anything additional that WJ get?
Cheers
TS

[phenix]

I mentioned this before time to move on. If you’re frustrated with how things went join ALPA …..change the world.
I was looking at the 787 CPT wages at both AC and Westjet and maybe someone can correct me.
AC 389.96/hr + overseas approx 17/hr
WJ 335.25/hr

Seems to be a sizable difference when you add the overseas pay.
Is there anything additional that WJ get?
Cheers
TS

787 CPT is not a relevant metric at Westjet, most pilots will never see that seat. We are talking about 100 787 CPT out of 2500+ pilots, the most junior one having 23 years on property.
An expected career for a Westjet pilot would be 8 years 737 FO, 2 years 787 FO, then the rest of their career at 737 CPT. That might change in the future, but probably not before the next CBA.

Numbers talk, let's compare as of next January:

WJ AC
FO737 1 $87 $87 1%
FO737 2 $94 $95 1%
FO737 3 $120 $118 -1%
FO737 4 $128 $127 -1%
FO737 5 $148 $163 10%
FO737 6 $154 $169 9%
FO737 7 $160 $175 10%
FO737 8 $161 $181 12%
FO787 9 $206 $229 11%
FO787 10 $207 $237 14%
CP737 11 $292 $309 6%
CP737 12+ $297 $312 5%

The average is at +6%, then it is steady at +5%

What does that means? That means that WJ exec can come with a 10% pay raise offer on the next CBA, and that will create the same gap between WJ and the AC than the existing one between AC and WJ. Maybe 10% is what WJ pilots should aim for, but most would disagree.

In fine, everyone is free to consider that this is a noticeable contribution to pattern bargaining between AC and the other Canadian airlines. I don't.

[Latitude]

I mentioned this before time to move on. If you’re frustrated with how things went join ALPA …..change the world.
I was looking at the 787 CPT wages at both AC and Westjet and maybe someone can correct me.
AC 389.96/hr + overseas approx 17/hr
WJ 335.25/hr

Seems to be a sizable difference when you add the overseas pay.
Is there anything additional that WJ get?
Cheers
TS

787 CPT is not a relevant metric at Westjet, most pilots will never see that seat. We are talking about 100 787 CPT out of 2500+ pilots, the most junior one having 23 years on property.
An expected career for a Westjet pilot would be 8 years 737 FO, 2 years 787 FO, then the rest of their career at 737 CPT. That might change in the future, but probably not before the next CBA.

Numbers talk, let's compare as of next January:

WJ AC
FO737 1 $87 $87 1%
FO737 2 $94 $95 1%
FO737 3 $120 $118 -1%
FO737 4 $128 $127 -1%
FO737 5 $148 $163 10%
FO737 6 $154 $169 9%
FO737 7 $160 $175 10%
FO737 8 $161 $181 12%
FO787 9 $206 $229 11%
FO787 10 $207 $237 14%
CP737 11 $292 $309 6%
CP737 12+ $297 $312 5%

The average is at +6%, then it is steady at +5%

What does that means? That means that WJ exec can come with a 10% pay raise offer on the next CBA, and that will create the same gap between WJ and the AC than the existing one between AC and WJ. Maybe 10% is what WJ pilots should aim for, but most would disagree.

In fine, everyone is free to consider that this is a noticeable contribution to pattern bargaining between AC and the other Canadian airlines. I don't.

I mean, that comparison assumes an AC pilot will stay FO on the 737 for 8 years and spend their Years 12+ as captain on a 737 which is not the case most of the time.

[cdnavater]

I mentioned this before time to move on. If you’re frustrated with how things went join ALPA …..change the world.
I was looking at the 787 CPT wages at both AC and Westjet and maybe someone can correct me.
AC 389.96/hr + overseas approx 17/hr
WJ 335.25/hr

Seems to be a sizable difference when you add the overseas pay.
Is there anything additional that WJ get?
Cheers
TS

787 CPT is not a relevant metric at Westjet, most pilots will never see that seat. We are talking about 100 787 CPT out of 2500+ pilots, the most junior one having 23 years on property.
An expected career for a Westjet pilot would be 8 years 737 FO, 2 years 787 FO, then the rest of their career at 737 CPT. That might change in the future, but probably not before the next CBA.

Numbers talk, let's compare as of next January:

WJ AC
FO737 1 $87 $87 1%
FO737 2 $94 $95 1%
FO737 3 $120 $118 -1%
FO737 4 $128 $127 -1%
FO737 5 $148 $163 10%
FO737 6 $154 $169 9%
FO737 7 $160 $175 10%
FO737 8 $161 $181 12%
FO787 9 $206 $229 11%
FO787 10 $207 $237 14%
CP737 11 $292 $309 6%
CP737 12+ $297 $312 5%

The average is at +6%, then it is steady at +5%

What does that means? That means that WJ exec can come with a 10% pay raise offer on the next CBA, and that will create the same gap between WJ and the AC than the existing one between AC and WJ. Maybe 10% is what WJ pilots should aim for, but most would disagree.

In fine, everyone is free to consider that this is a noticeable contribution to pattern bargaining between AC and the other Canadian airlines. I don't.

I mean, that comparison assumes an AC pilot will stay FO on the 737 for 8 years and spend their Years 12+ as captain on a 737 which is not the case most of the time.

Also, this is cherry picking, January is when WJ is on the next year(3rd?) of their contract, if you compare AC in Sept of 25 it pulls ahead of WJ for the duration by a fair bit

[phenix]

787 CPT is not a relevant metric at Westjet, most pilots will never see that seat. We are talking about 100 787 CPT out of 2500+ pilots, the most junior one having 23 years on property.
An expected career for a Westjet pilot would be 8 years 737 FO, 2 years 787 FO, then the rest of their career at 737 CPT. That might change in the future, but probably not before the next CBA.

Numbers talk, let's compare as of next January:

WJ AC
FO737 1 $87 $87 1%
FO737 2 $94 $95 1%
FO737 3 $120 $118 -1%
FO737 4 $128 $127 -1%
FO737 5 $148 $163 10%
FO737 6 $154 $169 9%
FO737 7 $160 $175 10%
FO737 8 $161 $181 12%
FO787 9 $206 $229 11%
FO787 10 $207 $237 14%
CP737 11 $292 $309 6%
CP737 12+ $297 $312 5%

The average is at +6%, then it is steady at +5%

What does that means? That means that WJ exec can come with a 10% pay raise offer on the next CBA, and that will create the same gap between WJ and the AC than the existing one between AC and WJ. Maybe 10% is what WJ pilots should aim for, but most would disagree.

In fine, everyone is free to consider that this is a noticeable contribution to pattern bargaining between AC and the other Canadian airlines. I don't.

I mean, that comparison assumes an AC pilot will stay FO on the 737 for 8 years and spend their Years 12+ as captain on a 737 which is not the case most of the time.

Also, this is cherry picking, January is when WJ is on the next year(3rd?) of their contract, if you compare AC in Sept of 25 it pulls ahead of WJ for the duration by a fair bit

No.
These numbers will be valid for 8 month, Sep 2025 numbers are only valid for 4 months. Therefore Jan 2025 numbers are more relevant.
Using Sep 25 numbers is cherry picking.
You can do a pro rata if that makes you happy

[Chateau]

As a year 2 WB FO I'm actually pleased with the result. Year 3-4 are a 100% pay increase vs the old CA, and brings much better per diems, better reserve rules, better insurances, a 20k back pay for year 1, etc. All that while working 10 days a month.

You cannot expect to gain absolutely everything in one contract.

Do I believe year 1-2 should be higher ? Yes. Do I believe there aren't enough QOL improvement ? For some equipment-seat, yes. But after 15 months and when the union tells you it's the best they could get, I believe it is a better idea to just secure it and come back at the table in less than 3 years.

2nd year WB FO isn't working 10 days a month.

Gimme a break. You're either on reserve 18 days or your slumming a junior unproductive block.

[phenix]

I mentioned this before time to move on. If you’re frustrated with how things went join ALPA …..change the world.
I was looking at the 787 CPT wages at both AC and Westjet and maybe someone can correct me.
AC 389.96/hr + overseas approx 17/hr
WJ 335.25/hr

Seems to be a sizable difference when you add the overseas pay.
Is there anything additional that WJ get?
Cheers
TS

787 CPT is not a relevant metric at Westjet, most pilots will never see that seat. We are talking about 100 787 CPT out of 2500+ pilots, the most junior one having 23 years on property.
An expected career for a Westjet pilot would be 8 years 737 FO, 2 years 787 FO, then the rest of their career at 737 CPT. That might change in the future, but probably not before the next CBA.

Numbers talk, let's compare as of next January:

WJ AC
FO737 1 $87 $87 1%
FO737 2 $94 $95 1%
FO737 3 $120 $118 -1%
FO737 4 $128 $127 -1%
FO737 5 $148 $163 10%
FO737 6 $154 $169 9%
FO737 7 $160 $175 10%
FO737 8 $161 $181 12%
FO787 9 $206 $229 11%
FO787 10 $207 $237 14%
CP737 11 $292 $309 6%
CP737 12+ $297 $312 5%

The average is at +6%, then it is steady at +5%

What does that means? That means that WJ exec can come with a 10% pay raise offer on the next CBA, and that will create the same gap between WJ and the AC than the existing one between AC and WJ. Maybe 10% is what WJ pilots should aim for, but most would disagree.

In fine, everyone is free to consider that this is a noticeable contribution to pattern bargaining between AC and the other Canadian airlines. I don't.

I mean, that comparison assumes an AC pilot will stay FO on the 737 for 8 years and spend their Years 12+ as captain on a 737 which is not the case most of the time.

It doesn't assume anything. Everyone knows that AC upgrades much faster than WJ, but that is not relevant in this situation.
Question was: can WJ use AC contract for pattern bargaining? Upgrade times at AC have nothing to do with that: it can't be negotiated.

[Protonpilot]

Actually they have a valid excuse to not tip now. We lost our gratuity allowance.

You didn't lose it, that amount was rolled into the new TAFB per diem system. Which overall is a 30% increase over the old system (tax fee).

“Rolled into” is another way of saying “used to finance the new increase” It’s not a 30% raise when you give up some else to get it.

It’s a five dollar allowance rolled into an increase of $150. Who cares? This seems to really bother you.
Not tip the driver? That’s just a cheap screw looking for an excuse to be cheap.

[WillC]

As a year 2 WB FO I'm actually pleased with the result. Year 3-4 are a 100% pay increase vs the old CA, and brings much better per diems, better reserve rules, better insurances, a 20k back pay for year 1, etc. All that while working 10 days a month.

You cannot expect to gain absolutely everything in one contract.

Do I believe year 1-2 should be higher ? Yes. Do I believe there aren't enough QOL improvement ? For some equipment-seat, yes. But after 15 months and when the union tells you it's the best they could get, I believe it is a better idea to just secure it and come back at the table in less than 3 years.

Why lying? Not a chance you work 10 days a month with only 2 years in as a WB FO. You are on reserve for 18 days and some months you "fly" only 10 days. To get a block on the 777 in YYZ you looking at 3 years in and will do 5 crossing or 15/16 days worked.

[cdnavater]

I mean, that comparison assumes an AC pilot will stay FO on the 737 for 8 years and spend their Years 12+ as captain on a 737 which is not the case most of the time.

Also, this is cherry picking, January is when WJ is on the next year(3rd?) of their contract, if you compare AC in Sept of 25 it pulls ahead of WJ for the duration by a fair bit

No.
These numbers will be valid for 8 month, Sep 2025 numbers are only valid for 4 months. Therefore Jan 2025 numbers are more relevant.
Using Sep 25 numbers is cherry picking.
You can do a pro rata if that makes you happy

Ok, take the WJ Jan 26 numbers and put them beside the Sept 25 AC numbers, I’m pretty sure when I did that AC was still ahead and stayed ahead until the end of you contract, I’m too lazy to really check again but the problem is you’re using the mid contract numbers against the first(2nd if you count retro) numbers

[dumpsterfire]

You didn't lose it, that amount was rolled into the new TAFB per diem system. Which overall is a 30% increase over the old system (tax fee).

“Rolled into” is another way of saying “used to finance the new increase” It’s not a 30% raise when you give up some else to get it.

It’s a five dollar allowance rolled into an increase of $150. Who cares? This seems to really bother you.
Not tip the driver? That’s just a cheap screw looking for an excuse to be cheap.

You heard it from ProtonPilot..."who cares"

Per diems are less for longer international lay overs...but..."who cares" as they say

[Latitude]

As a year 2 WB FO I'm actually pleased with the result. Year 3-4 are a 100% pay increase vs the old CA, and brings much better per diems, better reserve rules, better insurances, a 20k back pay for year 1, etc. All that while working 10 days a month.

You cannot expect to gain absolutely everything in one contract.

Do I believe year 1-2 should be higher ? Yes. Do I believe there aren't enough QOL improvement ? For some equipment-seat, yes. But after 15 months and when the union tells you it's the best they could get, I believe it is a better idea to just secure it and come back at the table in less than 3 years.

Why lying? Not a chance you work 10 days a month with only 2 years in as a WB FO. You are on reserve for 18 days and some months you "fly" only 10 days. To get a block on the 777 in YYZ you looking at 3 years in and will do 5 crossing or 15/16 days worked.

I guess I'm really lucky then

[PeanutGallery]

Air Canada TA, ratified by 67%
Westjet TA, ratified by 87%
Flair TA, ratified by 65%

None of them impressed anyone much. Air Canada is in the spotlight now, but AC pilots were only 2% more supportive than Flair’s. But first-year Flair first officers still earn more.

Canadians need to learn how pattern bargaining works, and everyone could learn something from westjet. Bernie had a lot more support than Charlene does right now.

[bcflyer]

You didn't lose it, that amount was rolled into the new TAFB per diem system. Which overall is a 30% increase over the old system (tax fee).

“Rolled into” is another way of saying “used to finance the new increase” It’s not a 30% raise when you give up some else to get it.

It’s a five dollar allowance rolled into an increase of $150. Who cares? This seems to really bother you.
Not tip the driver? That’s just a cheap screw looking for an excuse to be cheap.

Increase of $150? Love to see your math on that one. Btw it’s the fact that they took something away to fund a so called increase. Guess you are ok with giving up things that we already used negotiating capital to get. A lot of us aren’t.