How will you spend your ratification pay?

[khedrei]

For those that do leave, our flight decks are better off. Good riddance.

With that attitude, you'll soon find yourself alone on the flight deck and it will be your own fault for not valuing the guy beside you.

The next move of the airlines when they can't fill classes... "the FOs only made 1/5 of what you made anyway, we will give you a bit more and you'll fly alone".

It's closer than you might think it is.

[Latitude]

For those that do leave, our flight decks are better off. Good riddance.

With that attitude, you'll soon find yourself alone on the flight deck and it will be your own fault for not valuing the guy beside you.

The next move of the airlines when they can't fill classes... "the FOs only made 1/5 of what you made anyway, we will give you a bit more and you'll fly alone".

It's closer than you might think it is.

Awww and where are they going to go ? To the US ? lol.

[khedrei]

For those that do leave, our flight decks are better off. Good riddance.

With that attitude, you'll soon find yourself alone on the flight deck and it will be your own fault for not valuing the guy beside you.

The next move of the airlines when they can't fill classes... "the FOs only made 1/5 of what you made anyway, we will give you a bit more and you'll fly alone".

It's closer than you might think it is.

Awww and where are they going to go ? To the US ? lol.

That one went so far over your head...

No, the position will be eliminated because you placed no value on it. If you don't value it, you can bet the company doesn't and will invest in lobbying regulators to eliminate it.

And for the years leading up to that elimination you may as well be alone cause the guy next to you won't know squat because, I repeat, you don't value the person sitting next to you.

[Inverted2]

FYI the government stole over 55% of my last ratification pay so don’t go boat shopping quite yet.

[newlygrounded]

FYI the government stole over 55% of my last ratification pay so don’t go boat shopping quite yet.

Next you'll blame the single moms....

[Latitude]

With that attitude, you'll soon find yourself alone on the flight deck and it will be your own fault for not valuing the guy beside you.

The next move of the airlines when they can't fill classes... "the FOs only made 1/5 of what you made anyway, we will give you a bit more and you'll fly alone".

It's closer than you might think it is.

Awww and where are they going to go ? To the US ? lol.

That one went so far over your head...

No, the position will be eliminated because you placed no value on it. If you don't value it, you can bet the company doesn't and will invest in lobbying regulators to eliminate it.

And for the years leading up to that elimination you may as well be alone cause the guy next to you won't know squat because, I repeat, you don't value the person sitting next to you.

I'm sorry but you make no sense.

A triple FO year 12 earns 300k a year, which is top pay scale captain at all the other airlines.... a Year 5 777 FO earns over 200K a year. Where do you see no value in the right seat ?

[cdnavater]

Awww and where are they going to go ? To the US ? lol.

That one went so far over your head...

No, the position will be eliminated because you placed no value on it. If you don't value it, you can bet the company doesn't and will invest in lobbying regulators to eliminate it.

And for the years leading up to that elimination you may as well be alone cause the guy next to you won't know squat because, I repeat, you don't value the person sitting next to you.

I'm sorry but you make no sense.

A triple FO year 12 earns 300k a year, which is top pay scale captain at all the other airlines.... a Year 5 777 FO earns over 200K a year. Where do you see no value in the right seat ?

Don’t try to reason with him, he thinks an extra 50k a year on the first two years is better than an extra 100k a year for 20 years

[khedrei]

That one went so far over your head...

No, the position will be eliminated because you placed no value on it. If you don't value it, you can bet the company doesn't and will invest in lobbying regulators to eliminate it.

And for the years leading up to that elimination you may as well be alone cause the guy next to you won't know squat because, I repeat, you don't value the person sitting next to you.

I'm sorry but you make no sense.

A triple FO year 12 earns 300k a year, which is top pay scale captain at all the other airlines.... a Year 5 777 FO earns over 200K a year. Where do you see no value in the right seat ?

Don’t try to reason with him, he thinks an extra 50k a year on the first two years is better than an extra 100k a year for 20 years

No, I think 120-160k extra in the first 2 years (60-80k per year) is more valuable than 100k instead of 80k per year in 12 years. You make it sound like i wanted to drop the raise from 100 to 0 which i clarified many times that it only needed to drop to 80 or so. If I need a "how to" on going bankrupt, I'll come to you. Maybe your advice will be relevant one day. Like opposite day where up is down and down is up!

[khedrei]

Awww and where are they going to go ? To the US ? lol.

That one went so far over your head...

No, the position will be eliminated because you placed no value on it. If you don't value it, you can bet the company doesn't and will invest in lobbying regulators to eliminate it.

And for the years leading up to that elimination you may as well be alone cause the guy next to you won't know squat because, I repeat, you don't value the person sitting next to you.

I'm sorry but you make no sense.

A triple FO year 12 earns 300k a year, which is top pay scale captain at all the other airlines.... a Year 5 777 FO earns over 200K a year. Where do you see no value in the right seat ?

The table that I read from the TA has a yr 12 777 FO at 260k so at least be honest.

It's the attitude that I'm talking about because you said basically good riddance. And there is likely going to be very few 12 yr 777 FOs. But there will be plenty year 1-4 who are grossly undervalued.

To answer your question specifically, the year 1 guys at 78k and year 2 at 84k.

[flying4dollars]

For those that do leave, our flight decks are better off. Good riddance.

^ this unfounded arrogance is why the AC pilot group is becoming the laughing stock of the industry. Enjoy flying the flag after getting unstacked again.

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but some anonymous 4 digit poster on an internet forum isn't exactly an accurate representation of how the typical AC pilot conducts themselves. Otherwise if that's your metric to judge a group, then what does that say about you?

Back on track to the original thread question, I suppose I'll spend my underwhelming ratification pay on chipping away at the debt I accrued since I came here. That would be the responsible thing to do

[8895]

For those that do leave, our flight decks are better off. Good riddance.

^ this unfounded arrogance is why the AC pilot group is becoming the laughing stock of the industry. Enjoy flying the flag after getting unstacked again.

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but some anonymous 4 digit poster on an internet forum isn't exactly an accurate representation of how the typical AC pilot conducts themselves. Otherwise if that's your metric to judge a group, then what does that say about you?

Back on track to the original thread question, I suppose I'll spend my underwhelming ratification pay on chipping away at the debt I accrued since I came here. That would be the responsible thing to do

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

[Canadaflyer46]

^ this unfounded arrogance is why the AC pilot group is becoming the laughing stock of the industry. Enjoy flying the flag after getting unstacked again.

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but some anonymous 4 digit poster on an internet forum isn't exactly an accurate representation of how the typical AC pilot conducts themselves. Otherwise if that's your metric to judge a group, then what does that say about you?

Back on track to the original thread question, I suppose I'll spend my underwhelming ratification pay on chipping away at the debt I accrued since I came here. That would be the responsible thing to do

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

I agree. There has always been an air of superiority with AC. Wonderfully exampled by their union’s ’we’re not WestJet’ video. Nope, they’re certainly not. 5% higher top end captain pay with worse QOL. That didn’t age well.

[flying4dollars]

^ this unfounded arrogance is why the AC pilot group is becoming the laughing stock of the industry. Enjoy flying the flag after getting unstacked again.

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but some anonymous 4 digit poster on an internet forum isn't exactly an accurate representation of how the typical AC pilot conducts themselves. Otherwise if that's your metric to judge a group, then what does that say about you?

Back on track to the original thread question, I suppose I'll spend my underwhelming ratification pay on chipping away at the debt I accrued since I came here. That would be the responsible thing to do

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

This probably stems from all of us in the early birth of our aviation careers who probably had a goal to go to AC or at least acknowledged at the time it was the pinnacle of aviation in Canada. Westjet would have been an option as well circa 2000's I suppose but AC was still 'it'. I would assume though the question of "when are you coming here" from your friends could mean 1) AC long term is still one of, if not the best long term game when you account for the TOTAL package, not just the pay or QoL. 2) They are your friends dude. I would love it if all of mine in aviation worked here too so that we could potentially fly together.

I've been here two years and the only 'arrogrance' I've ever encountered has been from a VERY small number of pilots. I also came from a ULCC who's pilots were constantly looked down upon by everyone else so, I guess it's not just synonymous with big red eh? Just food for thought.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

That one went so far over your head...

No, the position will be eliminated because you placed no value on it. If you don't value it, you can bet the company doesn't and will invest in lobbying regulators to eliminate it.

And for the years leading up to that elimination you may as well be alone cause the guy next to you won't know squat because, I repeat, you don't value the person sitting next to you.

I'm sorry but you make no sense.

A triple FO year 12 earns 300k a year, which is top pay scale captain at all the other airlines.... a Year 5 777 FO earns over 200K a year. Where do you see no value in the right seat ?

The table that I read from the TA has a yr 12 777 FO at 260k so at least be honest.

It's the attitude that I'm talking about because you said basically good riddance. And there is likely going to be very few 12 yr 777 FOs. But there will be plenty year 1-4 who are grossly undervalued.

To answer your question specifically, the year 1 guys at 78k and year 2 at 84k.

The sentence in bold shows you have little historical knowledge of the position at AC and how it got to where it is. The changes to wages, course rights and QOL in the new agreement will have it trend back to a more senior position.

If you feel you are such a victim of your own choice to come to AC then maybe it’s not for you. Just remember, you chose to come here more less $ and longer duration flat pay than there is now. What was your plan B since you didn’t get you $100k yr 1?

-Jimmy

[Canadaflyer46]

I'm sorry but you make no sense.

A triple FO year 12 earns 300k a year, which is top pay scale captain at all the other airlines.... a Year 5 777 FO earns over 200K a year. Where do you see no value in the right seat ?

The table that I read from the TA has a yr 12 777 FO at 260k so at least be honest.

It's the attitude that I'm talking about because you said basically good riddance. And there is likely going to be very few 12 yr 777 FOs. But there will be plenty year 1-4 who are grossly undervalued.

To answer your question specifically, the year 1 guys at 78k and year 2 at 84k.

The sentence in bold shows you have little historical knowledge of the position at AC and how it got to where it is. The changes to wages, course rights and QOL in the new agreement will have it trend back to a more senior position.

If you feel you are such a victim of your own choice to come to AC then maybe it’s not for you. Just remember, you chose to come here more less $ and longer duration flat pay than there is now. What was your plan B since you didn’t get you $100k yr 1?

-Jimmy

This is a great point. Many will sit quite happily in the right seat making close to 300k rather than take the stresses of a NB captain spot. At WJ they dropped the ball and created such a disparity between WB FO/ NB CA pay that our 787FO spots are often a transient spot for a year until a 737CA comes up.
At Delta the pay difference is only $30 an hour so many widebody FOs have no intention of taking a left seat on a NB.

[8895]

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but some anonymous 4 digit poster on an internet forum isn't exactly an accurate representation of how the typical AC pilot conducts themselves. Otherwise if that's your metric to judge a group, then what does that say about you?

Back on track to the original thread question, I suppose I'll spend my underwhelming ratification pay on chipping away at the debt I accrued since I came here. That would be the responsible thing to do

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

This probably stems from all of us in the early birth of our aviation careers who probably had a goal to go to AC or at least acknowledged at the time it was the pinnacle of aviation in Canada. Westjet would have been an option as well circa 2000's I suppose but AC was still 'it'. I would assume though the question of "when are you coming here" from your friends could mean 1) AC long term is still one of, if not the best long term game when you account for the TOTAL package, not just the pay or QoL. 2) They are your friends dude. I would love it if all of mine in aviation worked here too so that we could potentially fly together.

I've been here two years and the only 'arrogrance' I've ever encountered has been from a VERY small number of pilots. I also came from a ULCC who's pilots were constantly looked down upon by everyone else so, I guess it's not just synonymous with big red eh? Just food for thought.

Valid points. I certainly wish nothing but the best for the AC pilot group (and every other one for that matter), I’m simply dumbfounded as to the tunnel vision so many people have for that company. Top end pay might be the best but QOL is certainly horrible from what I’ve heard.

I’ve said it before, unless you have a desire to fly long haul or you crave the stability of AC, I really just can’t see the appeal of working for that company, especially now. It blows my mind that they didn’t just pay Junior FO’s what they deserve and subsequently cripple their competition with the pilot vacuum they would’ve become.

[flying4dollars]

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

This probably stems from all of us in the early birth of our aviation careers who probably had a goal to go to AC or at least acknowledged at the time it was the pinnacle of aviation in Canada. Westjet would have been an option as well circa 2000's I suppose but AC was still 'it'. I would assume though the question of "when are you coming here" from your friends could mean 1) AC long term is still one of, if not the best long term game when you account for the TOTAL package, not just the pay or QoL. 2) They are your friends dude. I would love it if all of mine in aviation worked here too so that we could potentially fly together.

I've been here two years and the only 'arrogrance' I've ever encountered has been from a VERY small number of pilots. I also came from a ULCC who's pilots were constantly looked down upon by everyone else so, I guess it's not just synonymous with big red eh? Just food for thought.

Valid points. I certainly wish nothing but the best for the AC pilot group (and every other one for that matter), I’m simply dumbfounded as to the tunnel vision so many people have for that company. Top end pay might be the best but QOL is certainly horrible from what I’ve heard.

I’ve said it before, unless you have a desire to fly long haul or you crave the stability of AC, I really just can’t see the appeal of working for that company, especially now. It blows my mind that they didn’t just pay Junior FO’s what they deserve and subsequently cripple their competition with the pilot vacuum they would’ve become.

Pretty much why I came here. I miss the flying I used to do, the crews I used to work with, the camaraderie we all had and the overall sense of satisfaction of my last airline. And as much as I'd loved to have stayed, 1) I wanted to at some point experience overseas flying on a widebody and WestJet did NOT appeal to me strictly because of the upgrade time and 2) I could not guarantee my previous employer would last the duration of my career. I did not want to risk sticking around to find out.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy working here at AC in the sense I like the airplanes, I enjoy the pilots I work with and there are certain aspects of the job I appreciate being part of a legacy airline. Some of that includes my retired parents enjoying globe trotting (more than me believe it or not) on my passes. But otherwise in that sense, you are right, unless you want those things listed above, there most definitely are other great options in this country that can offer something AC can't and I hope the Porters', Flairs' and Transats' continue to be successful. It is good for us all.

[CaptDukeNukem]

This probably stems from all of us in the early birth of our aviation careers who probably had a goal to go to AC or at least acknowledged at the time it was the pinnacle of aviation in Canada. Westjet would have been an option as well circa 2000's I suppose but AC was still 'it'. I would assume though the question of "when are you coming here" from your friends could mean 1) AC long term is still one of, if not the best long term game when you account for the TOTAL package, not just the pay or QoL. 2) They are your friends dude. I would love it if all of mine in aviation worked here too so that we could potentially fly together.

I've been here two years and the only 'arrogrance' I've ever encountered has been from a VERY small number of pilots. I also came from a ULCC who's pilots were constantly looked down upon by everyone else so, I guess it's not just synonymous with big red eh? Just food for thought.

Valid points. I certainly wish nothing but the best for the AC pilot group (and every other one for that matter), I’m simply dumbfounded as to the tunnel vision so many people have for that company. Top end pay might be the best but QOL is certainly horrible from what I’ve heard.

I’ve said it before, unless you have a desire to fly long haul or you crave the stability of AC, I really just can’t see the appeal of working for that company, especially now. It blows my mind that they didn’t just pay Junior FO’s what they deserve and subsequently cripple their competition with the pilot vacuum they would’ve become.

Pretty much why I came here. I miss the flying I used to do, the crews I used to work with, the camaraderie we all had and the overall sense of satisfaction of my last airline. And as much as I'd loved to have stayed, 1) I wanted to at some point experience overseas flying on a widebody and WestJet did NOT appeal to me strictly because of the upgrade time and 2) I could not guarantee my previous employer would last the duration of my career. I did not want to risk sticking around to find out.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy working here at AC in the sense I like the airplanes, I enjoy the pilots I work with and there are certain aspects of the job I appreciate being part of a legacy airline. Some of that includes my retired parents enjoying globe trotting (more than me believe it or not) on my passes. But otherwise in that sense, you are right, unless you want those things listed above, there most definitely are other great options in this country that can offer something AC can't and I hope the Porters', Flairs' and Transats' continue to be successful. It is good for us all.

You sure you didn’t leave your previous to go “flying4dollars”?

Maybe I’m reading it wrong: it could be flying for a few dollars…

I know the feeling of flying for a smaller airline where everyone knows each other and that’s cool that you made the move that worked for you .

No offense meant.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I really shouldn't have to tell you this but some anonymous 4 digit poster on an internet forum isn't exactly an accurate representation of how the typical AC pilot conducts themselves. Otherwise if that's your metric to judge a group, then what does that say about you?

Back on track to the original thread question, I suppose I'll spend my underwhelming ratification pay on chipping away at the debt I accrued since I came here. That would be the responsible thing to do

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

I agree. There has always been an air of superiority with AC. Wonderfully exampled by their union’s ’we’re not WestJet’ video. Nope, they’re certainly not. 5% higher top end captain pay with worse QOL. That didn’t age well.

It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.

Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.

So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.

[Canadaflyer46]

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

I agree. There has always been an air of superiority with AC. Wonderfully exampled by their union’s ’we’re not WestJet’ video. Nope, they’re certainly not. 5% higher top end captain pay with worse QOL. That didn’t age well.

It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.

Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.

So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.

Agreed. Only reason myself and many others have stuck it out at WJ is because we lvie in YYC. If you're YYZ or YVR based it makes far more sense to go to AC. Upgrades at WJ sitting around the 10 year mark and it's 9 years to get onto the 787 as they seem to be shrinking the program. AC offers for more growth and opportunities for any new hire, and I'm sure they'll never have any shortage of applicants.

[cdnavater]

I’m aware, and I have quite a few friends at AC like most others. I simply can’t understand why every time we meet for drinks the question “so when you coming to AC?” pops up. This TA just further reinforces my opinion on how subpar big red is compared to how many working there view it.

Maybe if people didn’t blindly pad AC’s resume pile the Junior FO’s there could afford rent.

I agree. There has always been an air of superiority with AC. Wonderfully exampled by their union’s ’we’re not WestJet’ video. Nope, they’re certainly not. 5% higher top end captain pay with worse QOL. That didn’t age well.

It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.

Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.

So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the posted hourly doesn’t include the night/Nav pay which is still part of the pay structure, my buddy says it could add 17/hr on the 37 for a Hawaii run. How much is night pay?
I don’t believe WJ has this add on.

[Bede]

It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.

Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.

So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.

If you go to AC, and always take the fastest promotion, regardless of how bad the QOL is at the bottom of the list, you are correct- you will out earn a WJ pilot- mostly because of the much faster upgrade (or what was a faster upgrade in the past).
However, if you wait in a lower position until you have the seniority at AC to hold a schedule similar to what the average WJ pilot gets, I'm pretty certain a WJ pilot would come out ahead.*

(* Rough apples to oranges comparison: WJ block holders get awarded about 85% of what they bid. How long until you can upgrade on a NB at AC and get 85% of the bids that you ask for? Serious question.)

[phenix]

It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.

Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.

So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.

Is it though? Or is it a no brainer only for those who want to fly WB? Or more exactly, those who want to fly WB as Captains?
Let's ask the numbers

Paul and Jen are hired today, Paul at AC, Jen at WJ.
Paul upgrades on the 737 after completing 2 years as an FO, Jen upgrades on the 737 after completing 9 years as an FO.
They work for 25 years, what is going to be the difference in their total income? 16%.

I used October 2024 numbers, that should be at the advantage at AC. And an upgrade 737 after 2 years for someone hired today sounds optimistic as well. 16% is not nothing, but it is not the abysmal difference that some think it is.

I will not be arguing about "yes but this scenario or that scenario and what if Paul becomes 777 Captain after 6 months and he flies only at night until his death". The finest pilots of North America are probably able to use excel.

[Aerkavo]

Is it though? Or is it a no brainer only for those who want to fly WB? Or more exactly, those who want to fly WB as Captains?
Let's ask the numbers

Paul and Jen are hired today, Paul at AC, Jen at WJ.
Paul upgrades on the 737 after completing 2 years as an FO, Jen upgrades on the 737 after completing 9 years as an FO.
They work for 25 years, what is going to be the difference in their total income? 16%.

I used October 2024 numbers, that should be at the advantage at AC. And an upgrade 737 after 2 years for someone hired today sounds optimistic as well. 16% is not nothing, but it is not the abysmal difference that some think it is.

I will not be arguing about "yes but this scenario or that scenario and what if Paul becomes 777 Captain after 6 months and he flies only at night until his death". The finest pilots of North America are probably able to use excel.

The problem with these sorts of planning scenarios is that the possible futures rapidly outnumber anything that a person can imagine. What if Gerry goes crazy and sells off to some 3rd rate group who mismanages the company into the ground? What if the feds open the boarder with the US and Southwest moves in and beats Westjet into oblivion, what if the feds open the border to the world and Emirates comes in and takes 90% of AC's international market, what if there's another global financial crash, what if there's a war?

What if something happens tomorrow or what if it happens in 10 years? It's impossible to predict with any certainty at all what will happen and which company might be the better choice - you won't know until you retire and, of course, by then it's too late.

From a purely QoL POV a person with a young family might want to maximize time at home and the ability to control their schedule - sacrifice earnings to get this. Sounds good until you realize you didn't have the financial resources to save for their kids education and don't have it now to pay-as-you-go. The other choice would be to go to the place that gets an upgrade ASAP - sacrifice some ability to control schedule but earn more.

Taking your scenario imagine some crisis or industry meltdown in 10 years; by that time Jen has 1 year of earnings as a Capt and Paul has had 8 so who's ahead? Of course maybe nothing happens or maybe something happens that only negatively affects AC in which case Jen pulls ahead.

The point is that you can't just take a snapshot of the present and extend it into the future expecting a linear pregression to get there. This doesn't even account for the possibilty that one group out negotiates the other or what possible fleet changes might happen. In 30 years the 737 is long gone - what replaces it and which company moves ahead?

Personally I'd take AC over Westjet in almost every scenario. The extra flexibility of a fleet with more types, more base choices, it being a larger company that's publically traded and the current faster upgrades win out over QoL. Let's be honest the most important kind of QoL is a bigger paycheque.

One other thing I can tell you is that after 20 years of NB flying virtually everyone comes to the same conclusion; they want to try out the WB. And, when they do, they all say exactly the same thing - why did I wait so long to do this? Even if the pay was exactly the same another layover in Edmonton vs a layover in London? Come on, be serious.

[phenix]

Is it though? Or is it a no brainer only for those who want to fly WB? Or more exactly, those who want to fly WB as Captains?
Let's ask the numbers

Paul and Jen are hired today, Paul at AC, Jen at WJ.
Paul upgrades on the 737 after completing 2 years as an FO, Jen upgrades on the 737 after completing 9 years as an FO.
They work for 25 years, what is going to be the difference in their total income? 16%.

I used October 2024 numbers, that should be at the advantage at AC. And an upgrade 737 after 2 years for someone hired today sounds optimistic as well. 16% is not nothing, but it is not the abysmal difference that some think it is.

I will not be arguing about "yes but this scenario or that scenario and what if Paul becomes 777 Captain after 6 months and he flies only at night until his death". The finest pilots of North America are probably able to use excel.

The problem with these sorts of planning scenarios is that the possible futures rapidly outnumber anything that a person can imagine. What if Gerry goes crazy and sells off to some 3rd rate group who mismanages the company into the ground? What if the feds open the boarder with the US and Southwest moves in and beats Westjet into oblivion, what if the feds open the border to the world and Emirates comes in and takes 90% of AC's international market, what if there's another global financial crash, what if there's a war?

What if something happens tomorrow or what if it happens in 10 years? It's impossible to predict with any certainty at all what will happen and which company might be the better choice - you won't know until you retire and, of course, by then it's too late.

From a purely QoL POV a person with a young family might want to maximize time at home and the ability to control their schedule - sacrifice earnings to get this. Sounds good until you realize you didn't have the financial resources to save for their kids education and don't have it now to pay-as-you-go. The other choice would be to go to the place that gets an upgrade ASAP - sacrifice some ability to control schedule but earn more.

Taking your scenario imagine some crisis or industry meltdown in 10 years; by that time Jen has 1 year of earnings as a Capt and Paul has had 8 so who's ahead? Of course maybe nothing happens or maybe something happens that only negatively affects AC in which case Jen pulls ahead.

The point is that you can't just take a snapshot of the present and extend it into the future expecting a linear pregression to get there. This doesn't even account for the possibilty that one group out negotiates the other or what possible fleet changes might happen. In 30 years the 737 is long gone - what replaces it and which company moves ahead?

Personally I'd take AC over Westjet in almost every scenario. The extra flexibility of a fleet with more types, more base choices, it being a larger company that's publically traded and the current faster upgrades win out over QoL. Let's be honest the most important kind of QoL is a bigger paycheque.

One other thing I can tell you is that after 20 years of NB flying virtually everyone comes to the same conclusion; they want to try out the WB. And, when they do, they all say exactly the same thing - why did I wait so long to do this? Even if the pay was exactly the same another layover in Edmonton vs a layover in London? Come on, be serious.

And that exactly why I said I was not going to argue about exotics scenarios. I don't care where people go, but saying that AC pays noticeably more than WJ is incorrect and must be debunked.