How would you have voted if...

[Launchpad1]

The vote is done now and we should all move on and respect the democratic process.

I'm curious though how people would have voted if there had been a 100% guarantee of no arbitration.

[Texarcana]

It’s irrelevant

If you are an Air Canada pilot you are destined to continue within an emotionally crippled dysfunctional democracy.

Weak predictable leadership
Weak predictable membership.

It’s who we are, it’s what we do best.

[cdnavater]

It’s irrelevant

If you are an Air Canada pilot you are destined to continue within an emotionally crippled dysfunctional democracy.

Weak predictable leadership
Weak predictable membership.

It’s who we are, it’s what we do best.

It’s actually not irrelevant, it’s a huge part of why the more senior demographic would’ve voted yes, past experience and current environment would have played a big part.
The government has interfered with almost every single group in bargaining over the last couple years, whether they outright stepped in or put their finger on the scale, they absolutely interfered!
The CP/CN situation is still unfolding and how long before it makes its way through court, will arbitration be over by then, can they undo the damage once it’s done!
Arbitration was a roll of the dice, right to strike doesn’t mean shit in this country, why, because there is no penalty to the official breaking this law, so what the hell do they care!
If the assholes who force arbitration are held truly accountable, maybe they would think twice but as it is, they just say they were doing their job and thought it was, blah blah blah but no actual ramifications!

[altiplano]

By all normal metrics and collective bargaining achievement expectations this contract can be considered an enormous success. Largest labour deal in Canadian history...

The problem is that this wasn't a normal environment coming off 20 years of locked in loss and being in such a deep hole.

The mountain to overcome here turned out just too great for a single bargaining cycle to overcome and exposes how stupid we were agreeing to a ten year, accepting and locking in all those losses.

I thought we could do more and voted accordingly, some in the association and 2/3 of the membership thought we couldn't. Doesn't matter what I think now.

Bickering and name calling are bullshit and don't advance us. Suck it up and get ready to go get the rest.

Our tactics and unity worked, do this again in '27 and where are we? Fuckin eh. Get the rest of that pay and lifestyle and keep pushing to progress.

It's a long game and a never ending one until you clock out on your final pairing. Don't let up. Don't hurt your own interests. Keep the unity. Support each other and your association. And remember to fly your block and follow the contract.

Management certainly hasn't stopped. They are regrouping to make sure that they never have to give that hard again. To make sure we don't get into a position to leverage them next time.

[sportingrifle]

It will be very intetetesting to see what management does differently for the other unions about to negotiate contracts.

[Mr. North]

Some excellent posts by Altiplano and CdnAvater, they know whats up.

No one likes big bad AC or their greedy executives, but they're a known entity. The real villain here is the Government and their long history of intervention, both direct and subtle. The Teamsters at CN/CP were literally railroaded. They may eventually win their argument, that Section 107 is unconstitutional, but does that really help them 2 years from now? There's unlikely to be any restitution or backpay waiting for them.

I have no doubt in my mind that the MEC would have gone all the way if our right to strike would actually be upheld. Unfortunately there's just too many recent examples of those rights being trampled. Despite all that, we still managed to secure a 42% raise! It really is incredible. Sure, it may not be Delta but do you really want to risk it against a Government that just sent the Teamsters packing over a marginal increase? I think it was smart to take the money and run. Let the supreme court sort it out in time for us to go back and do this all over again.

[altiplano]

That's not what I meant in my post.

I would have preferred to push.

I only accept that we didn't and I commit to continue pushing and I maintain my goals and more into the next bargaining round in '27.

Keep supporting each other and your association and let's go all the way.

[N181CS]

How was anyone afraid of arbitration? Flair and Westjet have set some benchmarks. I honestly can’t see how an arbitration process would leave you worse of then you already were or are now. The 67% is no shocker…. They were all happy to either vote 10 years ago for the crap or that went there in the past 10 years and accepted the crap. Hard to get the flavour out of your mouth once you get a taste of it?

[loose]

How was anyone afraid of arbitration? Flair and Westjet have set some benchmarks. I honestly can’t see how an arbitration process would leave you worse of then you already were or are now. The 67% is no shocker…. They were all happy to either vote 10 years ago for the crap or that went there in the past 10 years and accepted the crap. Hard to get the flavour out of your mouth once you get a taste of it?

Did u really think someone making an extra 100k would give a damn the little guy. Ultimately in the end supply/demand will force those starting rates up.

[piperdriver]

Keep supporting each other and your association and let's go all the way.

Let me start by saying I don't work for Air Canada. It would be hard for me to support my colleagues when 67% voted in favor of this garbage contract.
Any pilot who voted yes for this TA is a cuck. Jesus have some dignity and self respect! How do you look at yourself in the mirror?

I honestly can’t see how an arbitration process would leave you worse of then you already were or are now.

I agree 100%.

[altiplano]

Keep supporting each other and your association and let's go all the way.

Let me start by saying I don't work for Air Canada. It would be hard for me to support my colleagues when 67% voted in favor of this garbage contract.
Any pilot who voted yes for this TA is a cuck. Jesus have some dignity and self respect! How do you look at yourself in the mirror?

I have my self respect and I'm not going to be petty because it didn't go my way. The point is that losing solidarity because I disagree with the result is a mistake.

What should I do? Cuss everyone out that didn't vote like me? Or keep pushing?

Up until that TA we did everything right. Now we need to get back on track quickly because in 2 years we're back in the same position and I want another 42% plus the rest of the QOL stuff.

And I don't know if garbage contract is a fair assessment, not everything I wanted for sure. But not garbage, and something we can improve on. new articles that will get developed.

[freighter27]

Cuck?

42% over 4 years?
What would a "decent" contract be?
Clown show here...

[thepoors]

Up until that TA we did everything right. Now we need to get back on track quickly because in 2 years we're back in the same position and I want another 42% plus the rest of the QOL stuff.

Yes, WE did everything right. The NC/MEC then decided to go against a 98% strike mandate. We need to clean house of those involved in that decision asap if we are to make any gains in the next round. "World Class Contract" and "Strike Ready" are now a farce. No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

[thepoors]

Cuck?

42% over 4 years?
What would a "decent" contract be?
Clown show here...

The clowns are the ones that think 10% a year from a bankruptcy contract is anything more than a net zero "raise" considering inflation...

[freighter27]

Yes
Going from 2%/yr to 10%/yr, massive failure....
Not going on strike is not a surrender, and avoiding possible arbitration is a definite positive.
Trudeau was never staying out of this, there is next to zero chance that sec 107 was not going to be invoked, no matter how much hot air came out of all 3 major political parties.
All that is academic, however.
This is an unprecedented gain, and had it been voted down, would have crippled the Air Canada pilot group's ability to bargain for years. They would never be taken seriously, and would never garner anywhere close to the public support that was expressed in the lead up to September 14 or whatever the date was.
Who in their right mind would ever sympathize with a group that turned their nose up at a contract (despite its many shortcomings) that pays an entry level employee 75-80k and tops out for senior pilots at the end of four years within spitting distance of 450 (or round numbers maybe half a mil). The people that vote for libs, cpc, ndp, make far less than that, and guess what, they too have to live in the same country, provinces and cities that your starting pilots do.
Stop crying cuck, go apologize to your significant other, tell him/her/them that you're still in love, and start acting like an adult.

[altiplano]

No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

So stop stroking this cuck bullshit and move forward.

Voted Yes and they feel betrayed? They betrayed themselves with their fear.

Cynical about ALPA? Holy shit. Could you imagine if it was ACPA? ALPA is the best thing that has happened to AC pilots in 20 years.

Everyone needs to get over being sad they didn't get exactly what they wanted. That's life, take your payoff, keep going, army of one, and go get the rest. Stop sulking and complaining about it. It accomplishes nothing.

[Launchpad1]

In full transparency I should say that I am a no voter, although there are some improvements I think we could have done better.

I just find it interesting that if you remove the possibility of government intervention then (with this admittedly limited pole) the no vote seems to lead.

I do however accept of course that there wasn't a 100% guarantee of no arbitration.

[TheStig]

Up until that TA we did everything right. Now we need to get back on track quickly because in 2 years we're back in the same position and I want another 42% plus the rest of the QOL stuff.

Yes, WE did everything right. The NC/MEC then decided to go against a 98% strike mandate. We need to clean house of those involved in that decision asap if we are to make any gains in the next round. "World Class Contract" and "Strike Ready" are now a farce. No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

No, we includes ALPA leadership and the NC as they provided the leadership and guidance to unite the group through negotiations. A group of pilots having tantrums about not achieving 100% gains and blaming the MEC and Chair is not taking responsibility for their own expectations. The new contract didn't meet anyone's expectations, however, the MEC/NC (that knew they had 98% of the pilot groups support) still decided it was the best they were going to achieve, 2/3rds of the group agreed, time to move forward.

[thepoors]

No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

So stop stroking this cuck bullshit and move forward.

Voted Yes and they feel betrayed? They betrayed themselves with their fear.

Cynical about ALPA? Holy shit. Could you imagine if it was ACPA? ALPA is the best thing that has happened to AC pilots in 20 years.

Everyone needs to get over being sad they didn't get exactly what they wanted. That's life, take your payoff, keep going, army of one, and go get the rest. Stop sulking and complaining about it. It accomplishes nothing.

I agree with you. My question is how?? When we had every possible factor and condition in our favour, the MEC still bent over and settled. That's why people are cynical and defeated. It doesn't get better from here.

[Mr.Worldwide]

No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

So stop stroking this cuck bullshit and move forward.

Voted Yes and they feel betrayed? They betrayed themselves with their fear.

Cynical about ALPA? Holy shit. Could you imagine if it was ACPA? ALPA is the best thing that has happened to AC pilots in 20 years.

Everyone needs to get over being sad they didn't get exactly what they wanted. That's life, take your payoff, keep going, army of one, and go get the rest. Stop sulking and complaining about it. It accomplishes nothing.

I agree with you. My question is how?? When we had every possible factor and condition in our favour, the MEC still bent over and settled. That's why people are cynical and defeated. It doesn't get better from here.

Funny, most of the people I've talked to are quite happy. Nothing but know-nothing keyboard warriors on here it seems.

[thepoors]

Up until that TA we did everything right. Now we need to get back on track quickly because in 2 years we're back in the same position and I want another 42% plus the rest of the QOL stuff.

Yes, WE did everything right. The NC/MEC then decided to go against a 98% strike mandate. We need to clean house of those involved in that decision asap if we are to make any gains in the next round. "World Class Contract" and "Strike Ready" are now a farce. No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

No, we includes ALPA leadership and the NC as they provided the leadership and guidance to unite the group through negotiations. A group of pilots having tantrums about not achieving 100% gains and blaming the MEC and Chair is not taking responsibility for their own expectations. The new contract didn't meet anyone's expectations, however, the MEC/NC (that knew they had 98% of the pilot groups support) still decided it was the best they were going to achieve, 2/3rds of the group agreed, time to move forward.

Dude..2/3rds of the group "agreed" after she threatened to quit and leave us hanging. If you don't think that swung the vote you're delusional.

[cdnavater]

No one is taking this group seriously anymore to lead us. Everyone I've spoken with feels betrayed, whether they voted yes or not, and we've rapidly devolved into a cynical attitude about ALPA. That doesn't bode well going forward and I bet management is thrilled with this outcome.

So stop stroking this cuck bullshit and move forward.

Voted Yes and they feel betrayed? They betrayed themselves with their fear.

Cynical about ALPA? Holy shit. Could you imagine if it was ACPA? ALPA is the best thing that has happened to AC pilots in 20 years.

Everyone needs to get over being sad they didn't get exactly what they wanted. That's life, take your payoff, keep going, army of one, and go get the rest. Stop sulking and complaining about it. It accomplishes nothing.

I agree with you. My question is how?? When we had every possible factor and condition in our favour, the MEC still bent over and settled. That's why people are cynical and defeated. It doesn't get better from here.

“Bent over and settled” you have no idea, none whatsoever that happened behind those doors and settling at the 11th hour is common, unless the company refuses to bugde the maximum leverage is when they know you will walk if needed!
The average gain for 5200 pilots is about 77,000 per year, back of napkin math but yes the junior pilots didn’t gain as much but 1.9 billion minus approximately 260 million in retro pay is not nothing!
I truly hope this is your online personality, if you go around insulting more than half of your colleagues, you’ll soon find it very lonely on your pairings.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.7345781

“The unions representing around 25,000 health-care support workers across Manitoba say they're postponing a planned strike after reaching a tentative agreement in the early hours of the day workers were expected to start walking the picket lines“

[freighter27]

Thepoors seems to have a quite particular outlook on the way negotiations go, first cucked, then bemt over...
Maybe someone really hurt him on his way to becoming a big plane pilot...
Hopefully, if he really is an airline pilot, this is all some online, hide-behind-the keyboard act. It is truly unsettling to think that someone with these sorts of insecurities could actually be responsible for the safety of the traveling public.

[Aerkavo]

How was anyone afraid of arbitration? Flair and Westjet have set some benchmarks. I honestly can’t see how an arbitration process would leave you worse of then you already were or are now.

Only someone who's never been through arbitration would say such a thing. Sure, Flair and Westjet would be comparators but the company's proposal to the arbitrator would be less than the TA that was before us. That's 100% guaranteed. The union's proposal would be for more. What the arbitrator would decide is unknown but they are required to consider the company's ability to pay along with the union's demands for more.

Now, you might feel the company could pay more and I guess I feel the company could have paid more too but what would the arbitrator have decided when the company provides reams and reams of data showing that they just couldn't pay more and remain competitive? The last 2 times we faced an arbitrator he took the company's word over the union's demands.

Full disclosure; I voted NO. I won't be around for the next contract and I still voted NO. I did it because, as my parting gift to the Canadian pilot group, I wanted the company to be the one facing fear next time. Just so they wouldn't be so confident of their ability to bully the pilots.

I voted NO even though I fully expected the arbitrator would award less than the TA.

[thepoors]

Thepoors seems to have a quite particular outlook on the way negotiations go, first cucked, then bemt over...
Maybe someone really hurt him on his way to becoming a big plane pilot...
Hopefully, if he really is an airline pilot, this is all some online, hide-behind-the keyboard act. It is truly unsettling to think that someone with these sorts of insecurities could actually be responsible for the safety of the traveling public.

Right...I'm the insecure one because I have self respect and expect certain standards for this profession. Not you, who's satisfied with whatever crumbs get thrown your way and then still feel the need to make excuses for it. Cope harder bud. This attitude is why we will always be behind in Canada.