How would you have voted if...

[cdnavater]

How was anyone afraid of arbitration? Flair and Westjet have set some benchmarks. I honestly can’t see how an arbitration process would leave you worse of then you already were or are now.

Only someone who's never been through arbitration would say such a thing. Sure, Flair and Westjet would be comparators but the company's proposal to the arbitrator would be less than the TA that was before us. That's 100% guaranteed. The union's proposal would be for more. What the arbitrator would decide is unknown but they are required to consider the company's ability to pay along with the union's demands for more.

Now, you might feel the company could pay more and I guess I feel the company could have paid more too but what would the arbitrator have decided when the company provides reams and reams of data showing that they just couldn't pay more and remain competitive? The last 2 times we faced an arbitrator he took the company's word over the union's demands.

Full disclosure; I voted NO. I won't be around for the next contract and I still voted NO. I did it because, as my parting gift to the Canadian pilot group, I wanted the company to be the one facing fear next time. Just so they wouldn't be so confident of their ability to bully the pilots.

I voted NO even though I fully expected the arbitrator would award less than the TA.

That is an interesting thought, had this passed with a higher percentage the company knows what they can still get away with, next time, I know I know, but next round 2/3 of the group is still pissed off and some of the yeses will be disappointed with the actual TA, combined with even more new hires and 300ish more retirements, this will shift the balance of voting power to the young who are full of piss and vinegar and ready to burn the place to the ground if need be.
Anyhow, soon the anger will subside and people will move on with their lives making more money and see what has improved and hopefully keeping track of specific demands for the next round!
On a side note, is there any place to see resignations, I would love to see how many will stand by their threats to quit, go fly in the Emirates, so what non union life is like, I hear it’s fantastic,

[accountant]

I agree with you. My question is how?? When we had every possible factor and condition in our favour, the MEC still bent over and settled. That's why people are cynical and defeated. It doesn't get better from here.

You didn't have every condition in your favour.

You had the threat of arbitration and the political considerations.
You had the threat of public backlash.
You had the actual balance sheet / P&L not supporting an "industry leading contract" --- AC is not as flush over time with cash as you were lead to believe.

You certainly had a good pile of conditions in your favour, but once you start weighing risks pushing for more than you got this round, the reward likely wasn't there.

|You've got 2 years until the next round. That's a good amount of gains considering the short turn around to the next round. ALOT can change between now and then.

[8895]

42% is a great number to throw around until you remember it was an ancient bankruptcy contact

[Dockjock]

Prepare to discover the hidden hundreds of millions you didn’t think they had. It’s there. Life comes at you fast. $250k is the new $100k. Elementary school teachers make $110 now, wake up.

[JHR]

Next time boys! Next time!

[bcflyer]

Cuck?

42% over 4 years?
What would a "decent" contract be?
Clown show here...

42% raise and still only 8% over WJ. Puts things in perspective don’t you think?

[freighter27]

Cuck?

42% over 4 years?
What would a "decent" contract be?
Clown show here...

42% raise and still only 8% over WJ. Puts things in perspective don’t you think?

Guess that they can only hope that the avcanada superstars step up to lead the next negotiations, show them how it's done, alphas

[bcflyer]

Cuck?

42% over 4 years?
What would a "decent" contract be?
Clown show here...

42% raise and still only 8% over WJ. Puts things in perspective don’t you think?

Guess that they can only hope that the avcanada superstars step up to lead the next negotiations, show them how it's done, alphas

Sucks when someone answers your stupid post with facts huh?

[freighter27]

Couldn't care less superstar, no where near 12yr 37 pay... WJ or AC.
Just laughing at the armchair twats, who've never had any negotiation experience, other than buying a used couch on FB marketplace... "never take the first offer" to bad the adults at the table for what 15 months had never heard that gem... go git em rockstar

[thrust set]

“42% raise and still only 8% over WJ. Puts things in perspective don’t you think?”

Yeah it does….AC 777 F/O’s make almost as much as WJ’s CPT’s.
Top pay is north of 400K on the A330/787/777.
35year DB Pension will pay 198K/year
I still deadhead in J class while my cousin at United doesn’t.

We extracted 1.9 billion from this negotiations. …. My question I asked some F/O’s and RP’s, could this have been the “ max of peak return ?”
The answer I always get is, “ no we could’ve got more !”

My response is ,”how do you know ?”

[altiplano]

“42% raise and still only 8% over WJ. Puts things in perspective don’t you think?”

Yeah it does….AC 777 F/O’s make almost as much as WJ’s CPT’s.
Top pay is north of 400K on the A330/787/777.
35year DB Pension will pay 198K/year
I still deadhead in J class while my cousin at United doesn’t.

We extracted 1.9 billion from this negotiations. …. My question I asked some F/O’s and RP’s, could this have been the “ max of peak return ?”
The answer I always get is, “ no we could’ve got more !”

My response is ,”how do you know ?”

It goes both ways though - how do you know?

I know guys in the room that wanted to go harder and deeper. Felt AC dug in at that juncture and were trying to pull back, we Matt have pulled them out with more pressure - but MEC was briefed and at 6 vs 4 decided to send it. Hardly convincing. Should have been 5 vs 5 if the YZ rep didn't give up his vote. But it was after then that unfortunately the big mistakes were made by the leadership - the delayed comms, the sell factor, the resignation threat, the yes/no division and vitriol - that's where the mistakes were made that hurt us then and going forward.

80+ year legacy airline pilot contract versus second contract at an LCC and we only just beat them on pay and still have worse scheduling... How much worse do you think we could have done?

And it has to be said - Do you really want to compare with United?! If that's not the worst argument there ever was.

Your cousin at United is getting full pay on that DH, drops them and rebooks at block release, and routinely gets upgraded DH & personal travel - and for specified flights 3+ hours DH is in First/Business. Your cousin gets full company paid 18% contribution in cash to their savings plan. He enjoys uncapped profit share at 20% of corporate pretax profits. Also he has a credible ADG @ 5 HRS and 3.5:1 trip rig and better duty rigs too. More override and premium pay opportunity, LONG CALL RESERVE, Proper overseas augmentation. No RPs. More vacation, better vacation credit per day, bankable sick time goes over 1000 hr bank. Higher training pay and better premium for trainers/checkers. And we haven't even gotten to pay which is still superior... but you enjoy your YYZ-YUL DH in J at half pay with some warm nuts and a frozen salad...

[freighter27]

Quite the laundry list of shortcomings...

Good negotiators would have fixed all those complaints.

Hopefully some of the stone cold avcanada killers will be in the room next time around.

Dare to dream cowardly "cucks"

[thepoors]

Quite the laundry list of shortcomings...

Good negotiators would have fixed all those complaints.

Hopefully some of the stone cold avcanada killers will be in the room next time around.

Dare to dream cowardly "cucks"

I don't understand what your argument is. You're calling people who are opposed to this contract cucks, yet it's purely cuck behaviour that accepted these conditions. Pussies who were too afraid of arbitration or some other made-up threat.

Your stupid "points" have been exposed as total bullshit by multiple people. What are you advocating for?... You sound like a bootlicking loser but it's not even clear who's you want polish.

[RAIM]

United pilots get J for DHs @100% pay

They also get J traveling to sim

They also get more than 4 hrs for sim...

[Texarcana]

I don't understand what your argument is.

While the delivery is atrocious and arguably infantile and, while Im not interested in engaging the post(er) directly, the argument may be that ALPA is no different than ACPA was.

Or more specifically, AC Pilots.

Endorsing this agreement? For real?

May also be that AC pilots have always been (certainly since 1995) the most predictable group of under-achievers, obviously continuing that pattern and from my perspective, little if any future hope.

I was hoping this group would be different, confident of it. In the end, it’s just the same.

It’s the 8.4 thing

[thrust set]

“It goes both ways though - how do you know?”

I didn’t, that’s why I trusted the process. Let the experts that have been at the table, with the guidance of ALPA and our legal team bring it to the membership and we had the final say.

“ I know guys that wanted to go harder and deeper?”

Ask yourself why did the Toronto F/O LEC member recuse himself and not give the proxy to any of the Toronto members? ….. harder, deeper and add at whatever cost. Could the rumors of the legal teams explanation after explanation, and coming away with the opinion that a few did not fully understand what the negotiation committee had brought to the table and the true gravity of the situation ….let’s remember that AC wanted a flat contract with only 30M in gains. These guys walked away with 1.9B and placed the company in a tough position to negotiate with other groups when the ceiling they were comfortable going to, was exceeded.

[altiplano]

“It goes both ways though - how do you know?”

I didn’t, that’s why I trusted the process. Let the experts that have been at the table, with the guidance of ALPA and our legal team bring it to the membership and we had the final say.

“ I know guys that wanted to go harder and deeper?”

Ask yourself why did the Toronto F/O LEC member recuse himself and not give the proxy to any of the Toronto members? ….. harder, deeper and add at whatever cost. Could the rumors of the legal teams explanation after explanation, and coming away with the opinion that a few did not fully understand what the negotiation committee had brought to the table and the true gravity of the situation ….let’s remember that AC wanted a flat contract with only 30M in gains. These guys walked away with 1.9B and placed the company in a tough position to negotiate with other groups when the ceiling they were comfortable going to, was exceeded.

Sometimes the process you describe is straight forward, but sometimes the process involves informing yourself beyond what you read and see, growing a set and making a stand.

And now you're making stuff up and guessing about why the proxy passed as it did.

And LOL "AC wanted a flat contract with only 30M in gains."
Are you for real?

And I don't care about AC and other groups. NOT OUR PROBLEM.

Enjoy your frozen salad.

[thrust set]

“sometimes the process involves informing yourself beyond what you read and see, growing a set and making a stand”

Tell me you know nothing about negotiating without telling me you know nothing about negotiating!

You sound like an immature muppet that doesn’t understand how the process works.

Thank god, your “grow a set “ was muzzled that night or you would’ve still been licking that “set” you so wanted to grow.

When you get your Dec payment with the ratification amount, you’re welcome.

Cheers my dude.

[altiplano]

Straight to personal attacks...

You're so mature.

enjoy your frozen salad.