67% yes

[Flyboy736]

As a year 2 WB FO I'm actually pleased with the result. Year 3-4 are a 100% pay increase vs the old CA, and brings much better per diems, better reserve rules, better insurances, a 20k back pay for year 1, etc. All that while working 10 days a month.

You cannot expect to gain absolutely everything in one contract.

Do I believe year 1-2 should be higher ? Yes. Do I believe there aren't enough QOL improvement ? For some equipment-seat, yes. But after 15 months and when the union tells you it's the best they could get, I believe it is a better idea to just secure it and come back at the table in less than 3 years.

Why lying? Not a chance you work 10 days a month with only 2 years in as a WB FO. You are on reserve for 18 days and some months you "fly" only 10 days. To get a block on the 777 in YYZ you looking at 3 years in and will do 5 crossing or 15/16 days worked.

I guess I'm really lucky then

Luck has nothing to do with it. You are on reserve and only claiming you work 10 days a month because one month in the off season you barely got called in. Somehow to you being on call isn't working... let me tell you if you can't have a beer then you are indeed working.

[accountant]

Well, the trip down the gutter for Canadian aviation continues...

Maybe respect the will of 2/3 of your colleagues.

Congrats to the AC pilots.

I understand your sentiment and would usually agree but:

The union promised the world and came up short. Did people vote because they thought it lived up to what they wanted OR did the labor minister in the room during negotiations and union stewards mentioning arbitration is a realistic outcome of a no vote sway people into voting for the best they thought they could get?

Or did asking for more than 30-40% increases the first kick at the can be a realistic expectation to set?

Pilots got gains --- caught up to WS and then significantly passed them. You're back at it in a few years and can push hard again. I think getting much more than you got wasn't going to happen given the balance sheet and P/L. AC is assuming they can sustain the current P&L's to make these payments. Another pandemic and projections are out of the water.

The analysis the other retired pilot / mba guy made is pretty spot on and similar to what a few of us have looked at. I think you guys got a solid deal on the financial side. Maybe you didn';t get the QOL stuff but I don't think you could get all in one sitting.

[acountant]

Air Canada pilots...getting ready to get em next time since 2003

[Protonpilot]

Increase of $150? Love to see your math on that one. Btw it’s the fact that they took something away to fund a so called increase. Guess you are ok with giving up things that we already used negotiating capital to get. A lot of us aren’t.

Looks like we gave up breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, and the transportation allowance. Not only will you not tip the driver, you won't eat, because that expense money must be for something else!

My math is based on the 24 hour layovers to the destinations I bid the most in Europe. For most of them, it goes from $170 to over $300. But where's my $5 for the driver!

[rudder]

One has to seriously ask the question - since the departure of the AC pilots from CALPA to ACPA over 25 years ago and the subsequent recent return to ALPA - why do they distinguish themselves in the highest degree of internal dysfunction?

Notwithstanding the CCAA car wash, the record on normal course bargaining for over two decades has been abysmal.

The AC CBA has always been noted for abysmal work rules resulting in marginal QOL for a large part of the pilot workforce (training dept pilots and senior WB pilots excepted). As a matter of fact, it was one the first things that the former CDN pilots noticed after the merger.

AC claim-to-fame used to be “we pay the big bucks”. Is that still true? And even if it is true, why is it that $$ trumps lifestyle over and over again in collective bargaining?

The result of Contract 2023 is a divided pilot group. Maybe 67/33 is acceptable to some. But management now knows - as they have always known - is simply satisfy 50%+1 and you win.

That is just sad.

[Protonpilot]

One has to seriously ask the question - since the departure of the AC pilots from CALPA to ACPA over 25 years ago and the subsequent recent return to ALPA - why do they distinguish themselves in the highest degree of internal dysfunction?

Notwithstanding the CCAA car wash, the record on normal course bargaining for over two decades has been abysmal.

The AC CBA has always been noted for abysmal work rules resulting in marginal QOL for a large part of the pilot workforce (training dept pilots and senior WB pilots excepted). As a matter of fact, it was one the first things that the former CDN pilots noticed after the merger.

AC claim-to-fame used to be “we pay the big bucks”. Is that still true? And even if it is true, why is it that $$ trumps lifestyle over and over again in collective bargaining?

The result of Contract 2023 is a divided pilot group. Maybe 67/33 is acceptable to some. But management now knows - as they have always known - is simply satisfy 50%+1 and you win.

That is just sad.

I guess we didn't reach that 72% ratification mark that Jazz pilots set when you ratified that barn burner of a contract. Seventeen years, cost neutral. "A game changer", to quote your MEC Chair.

[rudder]

I guess we didn't reach that 72% ratification mark that Jazz pilots set when you ratified that barn burner of a contract. Seventeen years, cost neutral. "A game changer", to quote your MEC Chair.

True.

And a price was paid for that. It is still being paid.

The reality is that this was ‘normal course bargaining’. The first opportunity in over 9 years.

Yet the scare tactics were as if it were CCAA or 2012 all over again.

There needs to be a learning curve. For everybody. Or mediocre will be the best outcome over and over again.

[thepoors]

The result of Contract 2023 is a divided pilot group. Maybe 67/33 is acceptable to some. But management now knows - as they have always known - is simply satisfy 50%+1 and you win.

That is just sad.

I would argue 67% is actually the sweet spot for both parties. Company likes it because the pilot group is divided enough, plus management gets to gloat "we gave them scraps and they ate it up." Union likes it because it's a lot better than 50%+1, so they get to save face and call it a "win" despite leaving behind the portion of the pilot group they will most need for the next round of negots. Real big brain stuff from all involved in this farce.

[cdnavater]

One has to seriously ask the question - since the departure of the AC pilots from CALPA to ACPA over 25 years ago and the subsequent recent return to ALPA - why do they distinguish themselves in the highest degree of internal dysfunction?

Notwithstanding the CCAA car wash, the record on normal course bargaining for over two decades has been abysmal.

The AC CBA has always been noted for abysmal work rules resulting in marginal QOL for a large part of the pilot workforce (training dept pilots and senior WB pilots excepted). As a matter of fact, it was one the first things that the former CDN pilots noticed after the merger.

AC claim-to-fame used to be “we pay the big bucks”. Is that still true? And even if it is true, why is it that $$ trumps lifestyle over and over again in collective bargaining?

The result of Contract 2023 is a divided pilot group. Maybe 67/33 is acceptable to some. But management now knows - as they have always known - is simply satisfy 50%+1 and you win.

That is just sad.

I guess we didn't reach that 72% ratification mark that Jazz pilots set when you ratified that barn burner of a contract. Seventeen years, cost neutral. "A game changer", to quote your MEC Chair.

There is a HUGE difference between Jazz and AC when it comes to bargaining, as AC pilots love to point out, you own the flying!
As AC management loves to point out, they can find someone cheaper to do the work! And they have!
For over half the pilots at the time, that contract took us to retirement and well, as has been discussed numerous times, starting over in this business is not a desired outcome for one’s career!
I’ll also point out, as a direct result of our long term contract we rid ourselves of SR and GGN dragging us down and we received an average 26% increase with zero normal bargaining leverage, if you include the company paying our benefits, my take home went up 31%.
The CIRB outcome yet to be determined, it could go up more!

[Inverted2]

I guess we didn't reach that 72% ratification mark that Jazz pilots set when you ratified that barn burner of a contract. Seventeen years, cost neutral. "A game changer", to quote your MEC Chair.

True.

And a price was paid for that. It is still being paid.

The reality is that this was ‘normal course bargaining’. The first opportunity in over 9 years.

Yet the scare tactics were as if it were CCAA or 2012 all over again.

There needs to be a learning curve. For everybody. Or mediocre will be the best outcome over and over again.

Imagine how many millions it has cost them (AC) in training the revolving door of pilots and how much it cost Jazz in canceled flights and lost flying. Of course they will never admit that.

[Pilotguy007]

Air Canada pilots...getting ready to get em next time since 2003

Bahaha there needs to be "like" buttons on here. This is so funny and true.

[Stu Pidasso]

I think you mean 2/3rds of AC pilots don't care that the bottom 3rd are treading the poverty line...so much for unity. Don't start with me Bede. Your shilling is exhausting and you don't even work at AC.

You best talk to your friends and neighbors who are outside of Aviation. 85K first year and 95K for second is a very long way from the Poverty Line. I get that it would have been nice to see better and most of us certainly expected it, let's try to stay real.

Not to mention that in your second year you can hold a left seat and solve the problem.

[cdnavater]

I think you mean 2/3rds of AC pilots don't care that the bottom 3rd are treading the poverty line...so much for unity. Don't start with me Bede. Your shilling is exhausting and you don't even work at AC.

You best talk to your friends and neighbors who are outside of Aviation. 85K first year and 95K for second is a very long way from the Poverty Line. I get that it would have been nice to see better and most of us certainly expected it, let's try to stay real.

Not to mention that in your second year you can hold a left seat and solve the problem.

Careful there Stu, you used 1000/hrs per year for salary, most know that that is a reasonable expectation but you’re going to get the blowback from the, “it’s 75 MMG” crowd!
Trying to point out it’s 75 or MBG whichever is higher has no effect, even though the MBG is whatever all the pilots are blocked to on a roster and that means something has no effect because when emotions are high and people dig in, they can’t see the forest for the trees.
Just wanted to prepare you for what’s to come!

[rudder]

Not to mention that in your second year you can hold a left seat and solve the problem.

Enough. Please provide valid info.

Yes, some pilots in year 2 have an NB CA award. However, don’t infer that EVERY year 2 AC pilot can hold NB CA. They cannot. There are not enough unbid vacancies. In fact, the only reason ANY year 2 AC pilot can hold an NB CA award (effective 2025) is because hundreds of more senior pilots passed on it.

Bid 24-04 will be telling as it will factor in bidding habits likely influenced by the revised pay scales. That will be far more telling about ‘time to last NB CA slot’ going forward. And when AC reaches steady state staffing (hiring for attrition not expansion) then that tenure for the final NB CA spot will move even further downstream.

There will be pilots - perhaps not hired yet - who will do year 1-4 as an NB FO or RP despite their standing bid preferring otherwise.

[bcflyer]

Increase of $150? Love to see your math on that one. Btw it’s the fact that they took something away to fund a so called increase. Guess you are ok with giving up things that we already used negotiating capital to get. A lot of us aren’t.

Looks like we gave up breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, and the transportation allowance. Not only will you not tip the driver, you won't eat, because that expense money must be for something else!

My math is based on the 24 hour layovers to the destinations I bid the most in Europe. For most of them, it goes from $170 to over $300. But where's my $5 for the driver!

You are the poster child for why AC pilots are continuously getting crappy contracts. You obviously haven’t been here long enough to figure it out yet. Maybe after 20 years you’ll realize the game the company plays. If you think this is about $5.00 you clearly aren’t paying attention.

[freighter27]

Spell it out please, bcflyer

By all accounts, the expenses are much more generous in the new contract, and much harder for the company to diddle. Where is the loss here?

[bradleyscotts]

44e11a7c01c58dbef28d750744d92edf.jpg (115.68 KiB) Viewed 3926 times

[CPU2000]

44e11a7c01c58dbef28d750744d92edf.jpg

The hilarious thing about this meme is the complete lack of awareness of what proper legacy airlines have in quality of life, bonus plans, retirement contributions, scheduling rules, 100% Deadhead, training pay, sim pay, commuting but most importantly respect.

Just hilariously ignorant. But yes as Stu says, we got early upgrades, so it's all good.

Air Canada pilots...relying on commercial plans instead of their contract since 2003...

[Ash Ketchum]

Another important point to bring up is that just because someone bids the upgrade in year 2 doesn't mean they will actually pass the training and start making the $$$. The upgrade failure rate on some fleets is ~50% at the moment.

[bob99]

Increase of $150? Love to see your math on that one. Btw it’s the fact that they took something away to fund a so called increase. Guess you are ok with giving up things that we already used negotiating capital to get. A lot of us aren’t.

Looks like we gave up breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, and the transportation allowance. Not only will you not tip the driver, you won't eat, because that expense money must be for something else!

My math is based on the 24 hour layovers to the destinations I bid the most in Europe. For most of them, it goes from $170 to over $300. But where's my $5 for the driver!

Meanwhile my Mexico City layovers are $50 less each and my October is less overall under the system. Good for you though, I guess.

[bradleyscotts]

44e11a7c01c58dbef28d750744d92edf.jpg

The hilarious thing about this meme is the complete lack of awareness of what proper legacy airlines have in quality of life, bonus plans, retirement contributions, scheduling rules, 100% Deadhead, training pay, sim pay, commuting but most importantly respect.

Just hilariously ignorant. But yes as Stu says, we got early upgrades, so it's all good.

Air Canada pilots...relying on commercial plans instead of their contract since 2003...

Are you one of those that woke up one day after being a couch potato for 20 years and decided you want to be a world champion?

that's pretty much what has happened at AC. for 20 years it's been nothing but concessions. We bring ALPA and expect to be compensated and treated as a united/delta/American pilot in 1 4-year contract. You and the other 33% are simply delusional.

On the topic of pension do you think the following is not adequate? For reference, I was hired at 31 years old

[CPU2000]

44e11a7c01c58dbef28d750744d92edf.jpg

The hilarious thing about this meme is the complete lack of awareness of what proper legacy airlines have in quality of life, bonus plans, retirement contributions, scheduling rules, 100% Deadhead, training pay, sim pay, commuting but most importantly respect.

Just hilariously ignorant. But yes as Stu says, we got early upgrades, so it's all good.

Air Canada pilots...relying on commercial plans instead of their contract since 2003...

Are you one of those that woke up one day after being a couch potato for 20 years and decided you want to be a world champion?

that's pretty much what has happened at AC. for 20 years it's been nothing but concessions. We bring ALPA and expect to be compensated and treated as a united/delta/American pilot in 1 4-year contract. You and the other 33% are simply delusional.

On the topic of pension do you think the following is not adequate? For reference, I was hired at 31 years old

Lol...

What assumptions are made in that figure?

Answer that question then we can dig into it...

[BigGreen]

44e11a7c01c58dbef28d750744d92edf.jpg

The hilarious thing about this meme is the complete lack of awareness of what proper legacy airlines have in quality of life, bonus plans, retirement contributions, scheduling rules, 100% Deadhead, training pay, sim pay, commuting but most importantly respect.

Just hilariously ignorant. But yes as Stu says, we got early upgrades, so it's all good.

Air Canada pilots...relying on commercial plans instead of their contract since 2003...

Are you one of those that woke up one day after being a couch potato for 20 years and decided you want to be a world champion?

that's pretty much what has happened at AC. for 20 years it's been nothing but concessions. We bring ALPA and expect to be compensated and treated as a united/delta/American pilot in 1 4-year contract. You and the other 33% are simply delusional.

On the topic of pension do you think the following is not adequate? For reference, I was hired at 31 years old

ALPA took concessions in this round of negotiating... pay raises while taking a permanent concession of losing your bonus plan...yikes

Only carrier now without one...well done!

[ClearedDirect]

Let me help you BradleyScott

The pension calculator assumes:

- 85 hrs a month (many DBMs this month are 70)

- 2% pay raises until retirement (if you think you're going the next 25 years without a crisis...not to mention the reduced pilot in the cockpit threat that will lead to serious concessions or reduction bids...)

- and the most critical assumption is that tax laws won't change. If you think you are going to be able contribute 18% like you can today without limits, then I think you're up for some serious disappointment. The amounts you quoted above have never been tested. This is the reason WestJet did NOT go with CWIPP. Their experts predict tax laws will change when the government sees these large pension contributions.

- the plan assumes more people will continue to be entering the plan. What happens in 2040 when single pilot airline ops kicks off? Air Canada pilots are the largest part of the plan...what happens when that plummets?

And remember...those figures are in TODAY money. So better factor in some inflation...

[Protonpilot]

“2% pay raises until retirement (if you think you're going the next 25 years without a crisis...not to mention the reduced pilot in the cockpit threat that will lead to serious concessions or reduction bids...)”

Can’t win with you guys.

You’re saying that a 2% average wage increase over 25 years isn’t conservative enough or even realistic? That it would be a big win if we manage to achieve that?

So, in other words, it would be smart to sign a 25 year contract with 2% guaranteed wage increases, ‘cause you never know?