Honda jet fatal overrun on TO

[rookiepilot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDiCLyMz3vY

Came up on Youtube today...condolences....

5000 ft rwy, zero wind.....(No idea what this jet needs)

[Canadaflyer46]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ozfyaXly ... e=youtu.be

[mmm...bacon]

1400' elevation and 21C would tend to point against density altitude problems?

Configuration?

Anyone fly a Honda here care to opine?

[7ECA]

There's a few AFMs floating around online, if anyone wants to run the numbers.

https://archive.org/details/xxi-3-honda ... 7/mode/2up

[boeingboy]

5000' is more than enough for this aircraft. This was a rejected takeoff well past V1/Vr - which is about 110 kts. Last ADSB was 133 kts when he started decelerating with 1500 feet left. Went off the runway at 90 kts. Various news reports are saying that the pilot survived and the 4 pax plus 1 in a car died.

RIP

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/458776

[VFS]

If I was to bet given the info I’ve seen, they forgot to set flaps for takeoff, accelerated to 133kts and the plane still didnt want to fly. The pilot still failed to realize they didn’t have any flaps out so only option left in their opinion was an RTO well above v1.

I know little to nothing about the Honda jet and if it would be capable of a flapless takeoff, so just a guess.

[Inverted2]

I would expect it would give a configuration warning if you forgot the flaps for takeoff since it’s a fairly modern plane. I don’t fly business jets but the antique Dash 8 I flew would holler at you if you left the flaps in the up position.

[cjp]

Hondajet's have had braking issues on landing due to the fly-by-wire, which I believe took a few iterations unfortunately to get right.

This may very well be due to poor PDM. I believe the Hondajet does have a configuration warning for takeoff. The newer ones may even have emergency autoland with those Garmin avionics. The pilot did not survive as far as I can see, but a teenager did.

There are numerous factors that could cause an aircraft not to realize its expected performance - including as described above flaps, GTOW in excess of MTOW, takeoff power technique, setting the proper takeoff power, riding the brakes etc.

This will likely take some time to pull apart as this a mess. Condolences to the families.

[digits_]

including as described above flaps, GTOW in excess of MTOW, takeoff power technique, setting the proper takeoff power, riding the brakes etc.

Flaps: possible I suppose, but if you're already 20kts about Vr, you should be able to lift off even without flaps, no?
Overweight: in a 2 engine jet you'd have to be extremely overweight not to be able to rotate at 20kts above your maximum weight Vr
TO power technique: I suppose so. Something definitely went wrong
Proper TO power: only an issue if you can't achieve Vr. If you've achieved it, you should be able to fly unless the power got pulled back somehow
Riding the brakes: not an issue if you're above Vr

[VFS]

I would expect it would give a configuration warning if you forgot the flaps for takeoff since it’s a fairly modern plane. I don’t fly business jets but the antique Dash 8 I flew would holler at you if you left the flaps in the up position.

Yeah, very true.

Perhaps a failure or issue with the controls/fly by wire systems (is it a fly by wire a/c???). Pilot spent several seconds fumbling with malfunctioning or jammed controls, accelerated we’ll past V1 in this time and was left with no options but to reject. Again, just a guess.

[cjp]

I would expect it would give a configuration warning if you forgot the flaps for takeoff since it’s a fairly modern plane. I don’t fly business jets but the antique Dash 8 I flew would holler at you if you left the flaps in the up position.

Yeah, very true.

Perhaps a failure or issue with the controls/fly by wire systems (is it a fly by wire a/c???). Pilot spent several seconds fumbling with malfunctioning or jammed controls, accelerated we’ll past V1 in this time and was left with no options but to reject. Again, just a guess.

Not fly by wire controls except brake-by-wire.

[cjp]

including as described above flaps, GTOW in excess of MTOW, takeoff power technique, setting the proper takeoff power, riding the brakes etc.

Flaps: possible I suppose, but if you're already 20kts about Vr, you should be able to lift off even without flaps, no?
Overweight: in a 2 engine jet you'd have to be extremely overweight not to be able to rotate at 20kts above your maximum weight Vr
TO power technique: I suppose so. Something definitely went wrong
Proper TO power: only an issue if you can't achieve Vr. If you've achieved it, you should be able to fly unless the power got pulled back somehow
Riding the brakes: not an issue if you're above Vr

Hey digits,

So just took a quick peek at an HA420 AFM.

That day, at 23C, he'd need between 4400'-5100' for takeoff, unfactored with a V1-Vr-V2 of 111-122 knots at an MTOW of 10,600 lbs. He likely would be at MTOW, 'cause the Hondajet has a very limited useful load. Fill the tanks and you have room for like 3 adults including the pilot, with any sort of bags. Range of this little bird is around 1200nm on a good day.

That's with flaps at TO/APPR.

IF he was overweight, somehow forgot flaps, had poor technique on the takeoff roll - it would be just too tight of a runway to make a mistake like that and recover.

Riding the brakes could heat them up and provide little to no power for a rejected takeoff scenario.

Food for thought brother.

[digits_]

including as described above flaps, GTOW in excess of MTOW, takeoff power technique, setting the proper takeoff power, riding the brakes etc.

Flaps: possible I suppose, but if you're already 20kts about Vr, you should be able to lift off even without flaps, no?
Overweight: in a 2 engine jet you'd have to be extremely overweight not to be able to rotate at 20kts above your maximum weight Vr
TO power technique: I suppose so. Something definitely went wrong
Proper TO power: only an issue if you can't achieve Vr. If you've achieved it, you should be able to fly unless the power got pulled back somehow
Riding the brakes: not an issue if you're above Vr

Hey digits,

So just took a quick peek at an HA420 AFM.

That day, at 23C, he'd need between 4400'-5100' for takeoff, unfactored with a V1-Vr-V2 of 111-122 knots at an MTOW of 10,600 lbs. He likely would be at MTOW, 'cause the Hondajet has a very limited useful load. Fill the tanks and you have room for like 3 adults including the pilot, with any sort of bags. Range of this little bird is around 1200nm on a good day.

That's with flaps at TO/APPR.

IF he was overweight, somehow forgot flaps, had poor technique on the takeoff roll - it would be just too tight of a runway to make a mistake like that and recover.

Riding the brakes could heat them up and provide little to no power for a rejected takeoff scenario.

Food for thought brother.

Good point. I was thinking in the lines of 'any of those things wouldn't prevent the plane from taking off in 5000 ft', but if you are misconfigured or have no brakes *AND* you reject, then yes absolutely you're right that you'd have trouble.

[Canoehead]

Buddy of mine flew it in the past, and there were a few shortcomings with the airplane as I recall. A big one was a very weak/poorly designed braking system.