It’s Time - Back on track

[Speedbrakes]

Even if this benchmark is relatively "good", why shouldn't we unionize as well. Why are some people treating this like it's one or the other. Personally, I'm not expecting much (I'm on the dash), but I'm hoping for a good benchmark. And if it is a good benchmark, then great, let's get the union going! They can focus less on pay, and more on getting back all our concessions. And if the benchmark sucks, well the union can still work hard for us and most importantly insure us from all the what-ifs that insurance is made for.

Hell, all I want is some sort of reasonable flow to the jet. I doubt the foag can use their flexibility to get that going, but even if they did, I'd still vote ALPA in. Because at the end of the day, the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.

Yep. Pretty much exactly how I feel. If the FOAG knocks this benchmark out of the park then I may be willing to wait a little more before talking union but despite what I'm sure has been a monumental effort on their part, I'm expecting to be underwhelmed. If that's the case then I'll sign an ALPA card that same day.

the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.

That's a damn good line by the way.

[cdnavater]

Even if this benchmark is relatively "good", why shouldn't we unionize as well. Why are some people treating this like it's one or the other. Personally, I'm not expecting much (I'm on the dash), but I'm hoping for a good benchmark. And if it is a good benchmark, then great, let's get the union going! They can focus less on pay, and more on getting back all our concessions. And if the benchmark sucks, well the union can still work hard for us and most importantly insure us from all the what-ifs that insurance is made for.

Hell, all I want is some sort of reasonable flow to the jet. I doubt the foag can use their flexibility to get that going, but even if they did, I'd still vote ALPA in. Because at the end of the day, the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

[cjp]

Even if this benchmark is relatively "good", why shouldn't we unionize as well. Why are some people treating this like it's one or the other. Personally, I'm not expecting much (I'm on the dash), but I'm hoping for a good benchmark. And if it is a good benchmark, then great, let's get the union going! They can focus less on pay, and more on getting back all our concessions. And if the benchmark sucks, well the union can still work hard for us and most importantly insure us from all the what-ifs that insurance is made for.

Hell, all I want is some sort of reasonable flow to the jet. I doubt the foag can use their flexibility to get that going, but even if they did, I'd still vote ALPA in. Because at the end of the day, the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

Nothing wrong, it just takes more time and effort to get them released. The challenging part for the operation is it takes a lot more resources to have guys go from left to left. You think it would be smooth, someone with 15k hours on a Dash 8 going left on an automated E2, but statistics are proving otherwise and a lot of it comes down to unlearning the habits developed on the Dash that worked well for that type of aircraft, but prove less effective on the E2. The Porter network prior to the E2 coming online was very small and guys get used to flying those routes over the years. That does not adequately prepare transitioning crews for the new weather systems, E2 dynamics, and terminal airspace they are now thrown into.

We've had to witness an abnormally high number of incidents on the E2 caused by Dash to E2 Captains. Some as 'minor' as pulling a parking brake while the aircraft is being pushed back to halt the push (2 former Dash Captains), to something more major, like flying through the top of a thunderstorm, where both crew were former Dash pilots. We're not talking junior Captains here either, these guys have 10+ years on the Dash.

So, no, its not as easy as you think cdnavater. And I say again, a union, ALPA or otherwise, even if it were entirely comprised of Dash 8 reps who were pushing for nothing except flow and using every last bit of bargaining capital on just that issue, are going to get denied because it's not as easy as saying 'seniority'. Grand ideas from John and Paul at the start of this venture did not pan out as intended.

[8895]

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

Nothing wrong, it just takes more time and effort to get them released. The challenging part for the operation is it takes a lot more resources to have guys go from left to left. You think it would be smooth, someone with 15k hours on a Dash 8 going left on an automated E2, but statistics are proving otherwise and a lot of it comes down to unlearning the habits developed on the Dash that worked well for that type of aircraft, but prove less effective on the E2. The Porter network prior to the E2 coming online was very small and guys get used to flying those routes over the years. That does not adequately prepare transitioning crews for the new weather systems, E2 dynamics, and terminal airspace they are now thrown into.

We've had to witness an abnormally high number of incidents on the E2 caused by Dash to E2 Captains. Some as 'minor' as pulling a parking brake while the aircraft is being pushed back to halt the push (2 former Dash Captains), to something more major, like flying through the top of a thunderstorm, where both crew were former Dash pilots. We're not talking junior Captains here either, these guys have 10+ years on the Dash.

So, no, its not as easy as you think cdnavater. And I say again, a union, ALPA or otherwise, even if it were entirely comprised of Dash 8 reps who were pushing for nothing except flow and using every last bit of bargaining capital on just that issue, are going to get denied because it's not as easy as saying 'seniority'. Grand ideas from John and Paul at the start of this venture did not pan out as intended.

Crazy, that all sounds almost as bad as the crm from a fair chunk of skyreg 2.0’s….

[cjp]

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

Nothing wrong, it just takes more time and effort to get them released. The challenging part for the operation is it takes a lot more resources to have guys go from left to left. You think it would be smooth, someone with 15k hours on a Dash 8 going left on an automated E2, but statistics are proving otherwise and a lot of it comes down to unlearning the habits developed on the Dash that worked well for that type of aircraft, but prove less effective on the E2. The Porter network prior to the E2 coming online was very small and guys get used to flying those routes over the years. That does not adequately prepare transitioning crews for the new weather systems, E2 dynamics, and terminal airspace they are now thrown into.

We've had to witness an abnormally high number of incidents on the E2 caused by Dash to E2 Captains. Some as 'minor' as pulling a parking brake while the aircraft is being pushed back to halt the push (2 former Dash Captains), to something more major, like flying through the top of a thunderstorm, where both crew were former Dash pilots. We're not talking junior Captains here either, these guys have 10+ years on the Dash.

So, no, its not as easy as you think cdnavater. And I say again, a union, ALPA or otherwise, even if it were entirely comprised of Dash 8 reps who were pushing for nothing except flow and using every last bit of bargaining capital on just that issue, are going to get denied because it's not as easy as saying 'seniority'. Grand ideas from John and Paul at the start of this venture did not pan out as intended.

Crazy, that all sounds almost as bad as the crm from a fair chunk of skyreg 2.0’s….

There's definitely improvements all around that need to be had, I'll give you that. I've heard from others, that certain instructors are being approached to correct their attitudes or risk being removed. The nice thing when things stabilize, which they currently are, it provides management the ability to look into things that would otherwise get overlooked.

[CaptDukeNukem]

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

Nothing wrong, it just takes more time and effort to get them released. The challenging part for the operation is it takes a lot more resources to have guys go from left to left. You think it would be smooth, someone with 15k hours on a Dash 8 going left on an automated E2, but statistics are proving otherwise and a lot of it comes down to unlearning the habits developed on the Dash that worked well for that type of aircraft, but prove less effective on the E2. The Porter network prior to the E2 coming online was very small and guys get used to flying those routes over the years. That does not adequately prepare transitioning crews for the new weather systems, E2 dynamics, and terminal airspace they are now thrown into.

We've had to witness an abnormally high number of incidents on the E2 caused by Dash to E2 Captains. Some as 'minor' as pulling a parking brake while the aircraft is being pushed back to halt the push (2 former Dash Captains), to something more major, like flying through the top of a thunderstorm, where both crew were former Dash pilots. We're not talking junior Captains here either, these guys have 10+ years on the Dash.

So, no, its not as easy as you think cdnavater. And I say again, a union, ALPA or otherwise, even if it were entirely comprised of Dash 8 reps who were pushing for nothing except flow and using every last bit of bargaining capital on just that issue, are going to get denied because it's not as easy as saying 'seniority'. Grand ideas from John and Paul at the start of this venture did not pan out as intended.

Crazy, that all sounds almost as bad as the crm from a fair chunk of skyreg 2.0’s….

I’m sorry. What? We’re all in this together. No one from sky reg is trying to make it sky reg 2.0.

I don’t know what makes you under appreciative of how to take a turboprop regional airline to a national jet operation without the help of people that have some experience with embraer jets and larger airline operations.

Not sure why you’re drinking sour milk, but I guarantee you the kool aid is the same everywhere.

[5degrees]

Even if this benchmark is relatively "good", why shouldn't we unionize as well. Why are some people treating this like it's one or the other. Personally, I'm not expecting much (I'm on the dash), but I'm hoping for a good benchmark. And if it is a good benchmark, then great, let's get the union going! They can focus less on pay, and more on getting back all our concessions. And if the benchmark sucks, well the union can still work hard for us and most importantly insure us from all the what-ifs that insurance is made for.

Hell, all I want is some sort of reasonable flow to the jet. I doubt the foag can use their flexibility to get that going, but even if they did, I'd still vote ALPA in. Because at the end of the day, the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

[Tbayer2021]

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

I don't have a dog in this fight, at least not anymore. But I find it funny how WJ mainline OTS hires are always painted as inexperienced pilots with a fraction of what an encore pilot would have. Years ago I turned down WJ for the exact fear that I'd have guys from encore parachuting ahead of me for at least the better part of a decade. At that point I had almost 10 years as a professional pilot with medium and heavy time. From talking to the few others I met interviewing that same day, none of them were the snot-nosed, 6 months on the right seat of a PC12 that people love to portray.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

And when ALPA/AC promises you 60% flow to the mainline and then it doesn’t happen… then what? How many hundreds of pilots got screwed out of hundreds seniority numbers.

Yes, let’s grieve it. How’s that working out for them. They aren’t getting their numbers back. They might get a couple thousand dollars. That get taxed at near 50%.

Encore is whole other beast to tame. They literally got told to shove off at sunwing and WestJet merger. Even though WJ and encore have the same union.

Pay your union fees everyone. World class.

[cjp]

I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.

A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

This isn't an Encore situation. At Encore they aren't going from the left from the Q to the left seat of the 737/87 - Encore is a loss of seat, loss of seniority, and/or an outright refusal to flow. Quite a bit more of a toxic situation there.

A lot of complaints you see here are coming from Dash Capt's waiting for their Captain's seat on the E2, which is limited to a handful a class. The guys waiting for their seats are either getting E2 equivalent pay while they wait, or flowing to the right seat with seniority intact, plus some considerations for YOS (not 1:1 [quite removed]). They all will eventually make their way to the E2 with amazing seniority.

Could it degrade? Maybe . The only thing I could see them considering is removing left to left. DEC days are done, at least until all potential Dash captains below the E2 Class 1 seniority have moved over and/or upgraded.

[goingnowherefast]

Right seat Q400 to left seat e-Jet (or CRJ). Have any other airlines have done this? It's not new, just needs to be done right.

Lots of complaints on here about how they think ALPA should have done things better. How about we stop and think about how it would have gone worse if ALPA wasn't involved? We're only speculating alternative realities, but it doesn't take much of an imagination to see that WJ or AC flow would have gone much worse without ALPA. At least Jazz pilots have a grievance. What recourse do Porter pilots have? Management: "too bad, so sad, stop wasting my time"?

[5degrees]

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

I don't have a dog in this fight, at least not anymore. But I find it funny how WJ mainline OTS hires are always painted as inexperienced pilots with a fraction of what an encore pilot would have. Years ago I turned down WJ for the exact fear that I'd have guys from encore parachuting ahead of me for at least the better part of a decade. At that point I had almost 10 years as a professional pilot with medium and heavy time. From talking to the few others I met interviewing that same day, none of them were the snot-nosed, 6 months on the right seat of a PC12 that people love to portray.

In the past yes, during the big hiring boom not so much. Also I didn't say all the new hires are low time individuals either.

[carnie]

Just to clarify re current YOS it's nowhere near 1:1. Transfer for Q CA to E2 CA =
Year 1-9 as CA= year 1
Year 9-12 as CA= year 2
Year 13+=year 3

[5degrees]

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

This isn't an Encore situation. At Encore they aren't going from the left from the Q to the left seat of the 737/87 - Encore is a loss of seat, loss of seniority, and/or an outright refusal to flow. Quite a bit more of a toxic situation there.

A lot of complaints you see here are coming from Dash Capt's waiting for their Captain's seat on the E2, which is limited to a handful a class. The guys waiting for their seats are either getting E2 equivalent pay while they wait, or flowing to the right seat with seniority intact, plus some considerations for YOS (not quite 1:1). They all will eventually make their way to the E2 with amazing seniority.

Could it degrade? Maybe . The only thing I could see them considering is removing left to left. DEC days are done, at least until all potential Dash captains below the E2 Class 1 seniority have moved over and/or upgraded.

Correct there are fences to prevent a DEC into the 737/ FO 87 spot. Yes encore is a unique situation but it was created due to a similar set up and it's something you should want to avoid.

[cjp]

Just to clarify re current YOS it's nowhere near 1:1. Transfer for Q CA to E2 CA =
Year 1-9 as CA= year 1
Year 9-12 as CA= year 2
Year 13+=year 3

Correct, couldn't recall it without the FOAG document.

[cdnavater]

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

And when ALPA/AC promises you 60% flow to the mainline and then it doesn’t happen… then what? How many hundreds of pilots got screwed out of hundreds seniority numbers.

Yes, let’s grieve it. How’s that working out for them. They aren’t getting their numbers back. They might get a couple thousand dollars. That get taxed at near 50%.

Encore is whole other beast to tame. They literally got told to shove off at sunwing and WestJet merger. Even though WJ and encore have the same union.

Pay your union fees everyone. World class.

You guys could do it differently, lessons learned from us, without some kind of financial penalty or seniority bypass rules encompassed in the agreement, you are left one option, grieving it.
Both companies are wholly owned by the same parent company, common employer would have both parties under the same agreement, not separate groups. If you both sign on for ALPA, first order of business should be common employer but to be honest, the group that benefits more from that would be the prop pilots, so I’m sure this would require support from both groups. This is where we find out the true feelings of the direct hires, put this to a vote and see who is willing to have Q pilots parachuted in above them.
Things are slowing down, so is there any rush for Porter to put out and earth shattering benchmark..not likely but I will hold judgement until the details are out.
Good luck, you guys are in a bit of a truth telling situation right now, deliveries delayed, hiring machine slowing down and waiting, for what seems like a long time for a new deal.
I know that one thing I can say with absolute certainty, if I were there, I would have already signed my card, plenty of warning signs have been there just need to see them

[cjp]

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

This isn't an Encore situation. At Encore they aren't going from the left from the Q to the left seat of the 737/87 - Encore is a loss of seat, loss of seniority, and/or an outright refusal to flow. Quite a bit more of a toxic situation there.

A lot of complaints you see here are coming from Dash Capt's waiting for their Captain's seat on the E2, which is limited to a handful a class. The guys waiting for their seats are either getting E2 equivalent pay while they wait, or flowing to the right seat with seniority intact, plus some considerations for YOS (not quite 1:1). They all will eventually make their way to the E2 with amazing seniority.

Could it degrade? Maybe . The only thing I could see them considering is removing left to left. DEC days are done, at least until all potential Dash captains below the E2 Class 1 seniority have moved over and/or upgraded.

Correct there are fences to prevent a DEC into the 737/ FO 87 spot. Yes encore is a unique situation but it was created due to a similar set up and it's something you should want to avoid.

5, I'm curious how you see the setup being similar between Porter launching the E2 and Westjet forming Encore?

[cdnavater]

This isn't an Encore situation. At Encore they aren't going from the left from the Q to the left seat of the 737/87 - Encore is a loss of seat, loss of seniority, and/or an outright refusal to flow. Quite a bit more of a toxic situation there.

A lot of complaints you see here are coming from Dash Capt's waiting for their Captain's seat on the E2, which is limited to a handful a class. The guys waiting for their seats are either getting E2 equivalent pay while they wait, or flowing to the right seat with seniority intact, plus some considerations for YOS (not quite 1:1). They all will eventually make their way to the E2 with amazing seniority.

Could it degrade? Maybe . The only thing I could see them considering is removing left to left. DEC days are done, at least until all potential Dash captains below the E2 Class 1 seniority have moved over and/or upgraded.

Correct there are fences to prevent a DEC into the 737/ FO 87 spot. Yes encore is a unique situation but it was created due to a similar set up and it's something you should want to avoid.

5, I'm curious how you see the setup being similar between Porter launching the E2 and Westjet forming Encore?

Other than Encore coming second, they are both wholly owned by the same company with separate groups of pilots, you guys might work under the same FOAG(I’m assuming) but make no mistake, in the companies eyes, you are 100% separate groups.

[5degrees]

What’s wrong with wanting to go from left to left?
Flow is the reason they started these as separate operations, non of the other bs they’ve spewed matters, this is a problem!
If you have seniority, you should be able to hold whatever seat your seniority can hold, that’s what a union would do, with the caveat that separate companies has problems with that. Obviously you have some kind of equipment freeze for normal position bids but that’s it.
It won’t be the same bargaining unit, even if you sign with APLA the same day. Someone should really start a common employer challenge, that’s would certainly stand a chance, however I’m not a labour lawyer, so that’s worth what you paid for it,

I agree with CDN here. Do not allow it to become an encore type flow situation. It will cause many problems down the road for the dash pilots. Guys at Encore are now facing 7+ years to flow, while people with half their exp. are being hired directly onto the jet.

And when ALPA/AC promises you 60% flow to the mainline and then it doesn’t happen… then what? How many hundreds of pilots got screwed out of hundreds seniority numbers.

Yes, let’s grieve it. How’s that working out for them. They aren’t getting their numbers back. They might get a couple thousand dollars. That get taxed at near 50%.

Encore is whole other beast to tame. They literally got told to shove off at sunwing and WestJet merger. Even though WJ and encore have the same union.

Pay your union fees everyone. World class.

Encore pilots post PTA cancellation already didn't have seniority rights. Those that were at encore prior to cancellation keep their seniority so nothings changed there. WJ and WEN are 2 separate companies represented by 2 different MECs.

My point is the dash pilots should not allow a similar type of situation to develop and imo common employer and making the E2 a position based on seniority will save a lot of potential BS in the future.

[5degrees]

This isn't an Encore situation. At Encore they aren't going from the left from the Q to the left seat of the 737/87 - Encore is a loss of seat, loss of seniority, and/or an outright refusal to flow. Quite a bit more of a toxic situation there.

A lot of complaints you see here are coming from Dash Capt's waiting for their Captain's seat on the E2, which is limited to a handful a class. The guys waiting for their seats are either getting E2 equivalent pay while they wait, or flowing to the right seat with seniority intact, plus some considerations for YOS (not quite 1:1). They all will eventually make their way to the E2 with amazing seniority.

Could it degrade? Maybe . The only thing I could see them considering is removing left to left. DEC days are done, at least until all potential Dash captains below the E2 Class 1 seniority have moved over and/or upgraded.

Correct there are fences to prevent a DEC into the 737/ FO 87 spot. Yes encore is a unique situation but it was created due to a similar set up and it's something you should want to avoid.

5, I'm curious how you see the setup being similar between Porter launching the E2 and Westjet forming Encore?

2 separate AOCs just like WEN and WJ. Isn't that why it's now called Dashport and not Porter anymore? Like someone else said. Learn from the mistakes Jazz and WEN made.

[cjp]

Correct there are fences to prevent a DEC into the 737/ FO 87 spot. Yes encore is a unique situation but it was created due to a similar set up and it's something you should want to avoid.

5, I'm curious how you see the setup being similar between Porter launching the E2 and Westjet forming Encore?

2 separate AOCs just like WEN and WJ. Isn't that why it's now called Dashport and not Porter anymore? Like someone else said. Learn from the mistakes Jazz and WEN made.

WEN was formed to address a much lower cost market, just like Rouge, decreasing operating costs from their normal carrier service.

PACL was formed to allow for lower startup capital investment to get the E2 operation started. Under the same OC, it would have increased that investment requirement by over 50%, iirc.

PACL increases market share by doing the opposite, increasing service and expanding to new markets. Porter Dash and Porter Air yes are used because of the 2 AOCs, upon the declining of common use of Porter by ICAO and FAA. I don't like Porter Dash myself but such is life.

[goingnowherefast]

WEN and WJA, were they ever under the same work rules with WJPA? They certified at separate times with separate card drives and separate organizing committees.

e2 and q400, are they both under the same FOAG? My understanding is it's all under the same organizing committee.

My point is that I don't see a lot of comparison between the WJ situation and Porter situation. Yes, common employer is important, and needs to be solidified. But it's a tall stretch to say they're currently separate. More of a ACA/ROU arrangement. Same pilot group, different AOCs.

[cjp]

WEN and WJA, were they ever under the same work rules with WJPA? They certified at separate times with separate card drives and separate organizing committees.

e2 and q400, are they both under the same FOAG? My understanding is it's all under the same organizing committee.

My point is that I don't see a lot of comparison between the WJ situation and Porter situation. Yes, common employer is important, and needs to be solidified. But it's a tall stretch to say they're currently separate. More of a ACA/ROU arrangement. Same pilot group, different AOCs.

Exactly, not much of a comparison. New benchmark I think will be closer to a TA, providing pilots opportunity to vote on what they want; salary, lifestyle and fixed operational elements. I think we're entering a new era and transitioning away from the older style of the FOAG.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Can't compare Encore to Dashport... Dashport isn't exploding engines on the regular.

Encore destroyed another engine in the past few days... that puts it at what...5 in the past year and a half?

[braaap Braap]

WEN and WJA, were they ever under the same work rules with WJPA? They certified at separate times with separate card drives and separate organizing committees.

e2 and q400, are they both under the same FOAG? My understanding is it's all under the same organizing committee.

My point is that I don't see a lot of comparison between the WJ situation and Porter situation. Yes, common employer is important, and needs to be solidified. But it's a tall stretch to say they're currently separate. More of a ACA/ROU arrangement. Same pilot group, different AOCs.

Exactly, not much of a comparison. New benchmark I think will be closer to a TA, providing pilots opportunity to vote on what they want; salary, lifestyle and fixed operational elements. I think we're entering a new era and transitioning away from the older style of the FOAG.

This voting style was a part of FOAGs in the past. Think its explained in the preamble of 14 if you can find a copy of it. Disappeared when BC wrote his piece.

Not that it was ever really used. I have been able to vote on 1 thing in my time here at Porter: allow pilots with jet experience to transfer to the E2 out of seniority order because there were only 6 of them. It didnt pass because not enough people voted