Did Air Canada pilots really take concessions in this negotiating climate?

[Jean-Pierre]

Is it possible that Transport Minister threatened the MEC with jail time? They did do some quasi-illegal shit like references to wildcat strikes in official communication. That could have been used to threaten our leaders into folding so easily.

[Aerkavo]

Is it possible that Transport Minister threatened the MEC with jail time?

I think that's unlikely. If anything it was a suggestion that striking would lead to government/CIRB intervention in short order. Actually, I think it was even less than that - just having the Labour Minister present in the hotel on the last day would be, and probably was, intended to be interpreted as the intention of the government to intervene.

[30westpirate]

WJ contract > AC contract

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

[eurotrash]

Nah...it was the MEC Chair & Vice Chair who had pre emptive no strikeitis. They were going to cave no matter what. They just had to convince the MEC to crumble.

And lucky for them enough of them did.

Next thing you know you got a TA turd and a director of Flight Ops bragging about the best in Canada (as if being at Air Canada there should be any doubt)

Epic fail as this contract isn't even truly much better than WestJet. Hell Porter isn't even unionized and they are a comparable

WestJet - long call reserve
Air Canada world worst *only* short call

WestJet - bonus
Air Canada - not really

WestJet - working less days
Air Canada - unproductive narrowbody of 16 days

WestJet - affordable bases
Air Canada - hope you speak francais or fight hunger games style for the 50 spots in Winnipeg

[Hysteria]

WJ contract > AC contract

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

[30westpirate]

WJ contract > AC contract

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

I forgot to mention the 16 year wait for a 737 captain at Westjet vs. 2-3 years at AC. And probably a 25+ years for a 787 vs 18 years at AC for a 787 captain.

[stall]

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

I forgot to mention the 16 year wait for a 737 captain at Westjet vs. 2-3 years at AC. And probably a 25+ years for a 787 vs 18 years at AC for a 787 captain.

We all know growth plans & promotions can change at a moments notice while contracts do not.

You will recall Air Canada kicked 600 pilots to the curb without CEWS while other airlines did not. No one was worse off in the industry than them.

[thepoors]

Gotta love this idiot logic. As if I, or anyone else, could walk into this fraudulent organization full of corrupt people and change anything. #wOrLd ClAsS cOnTrAcT

Who specifically do you think is corrupt and what evidence do you have to support your claim?

Everyone involved in this farce: from the "I'll quit" two-faced coward MEC Chair, to the YYZ LEC rep who gave his vote to YWG, to all the other reps who voted yes to the TA. They completely disregarded their mandate of serving in the best interest of the membership, followed by a subsequent doubling down, fear mongering sell job on this garbage contract. If that's not evidence of (literal and moral) corruption, I don't know what is.

It's a nice little list of people who will never sit in my jumpseat.

[cdnavater]

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

I forgot to mention the 16 year wait for a 737 captain at Westjet vs. 2-3 years at AC. And probably a 25+ years for a 787 vs 18 years at AC for a 787 captain.

We all know growth plans & promotions can change at a moments notice while contracts do not.

You will recall Air Canada kicked 600 pilots to the curb without CEWS while other airlines did not. No one was worse off in the industry than them.

Are you sure about that, WJ mainline pilots were flying for Encore at Encore wages, where were the displaced Encore pilots? Pretty sure they were laid off

[stall]

I forgot to mention the 16 year wait for a 737 captain at Westjet vs. 2-3 years at AC. And probably a 25+ years for a 787 vs 18 years at AC for a 787 captain.

We all know growth plans & promotions can change at a moments notice while contracts do not.

You will recall Air Canada kicked 600 pilots to the curb without CEWS while other airlines did not. No one was worse off in the industry than them.

Are you sure about that, WJ mainline pilots were flying for Encore at Encore wages, where were the displaced Encore pilots? Pretty sure they were laid off

"WestJet said it is participating in the Canadian Emergency Wage Subsidy (CEWS) program and said the pilots will be placed on an inactive status and will remain on payroll while the program is in effect."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.5534007

[30westpirate]

WJ contract > AC contract

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

Here’s some other gems:

- 100% employer paid health benefits (ask pilots at Transat, Porter and Jazz what their health benefit deductions are monthly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Westjet had similar deductions)
- a much better GDIP program
- probably the best pension program for any airline in the country

It appears that some of you have unknowingly joined a seniority based company expecting a lifestyle that a socialized bidding company would offer.

[Hysteria]

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

Here’s some other gems:

- 100% employer paid health benefits (ask pilots at Transat, Porter and Jazz what their health benefit deductions are monthly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Westjet had similar deductions)
- a much better GDIP program
- probably the best pension program for any airline in the country

It appears that some of you have unknowingly joined a seniority based company expecting a lifestyle that a socialized bidding company would offer.

Big red is 100% employer paid health benefits? I didn’t know that. I’m not afraid to acknowledge where improvements need to be made. I have friend at AC and westjet. AC doesn’t work for everyone, and neither does WJ. My WJ friends after 1 year have been doing 14 days worked a month already off reserve and enjoying this socialized bidding. I look forward to being home more often. It’s not for everyone, but it is for me.

[Inverted2]

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

I forgot to mention the 16 year wait for a 737 captain at Westjet vs. 2-3 years at AC. And probably a 25+ years for a 787 vs 18 years at AC for a 787 captain.

The above is true but the quick upgrades won’t last forever.

[Bede]

Gotta love this idiot logic. As if I, or anyone else, could walk into this fraudulent organization full of corrupt people and change anything. #wOrLd ClAsS cOnTrAcT

Who specifically do you think is corrupt and what evidence do you have to support your claim?

Everyone involved in this farce: from the "I'll quit" two-faced coward MEC Chair, to the YYZ LEC rep who gave his vote to YWG, to all the other reps who voted yes to the TA. They completely disregarded their mandate of serving in the best interest of the membership, followed by a subsequent doubling down, fear mongering sell job on this garbage contract. If that's not evidence of (literal and moral) corruption, I don't know what is.

It's a nice little list of people who will never sit in my jumpseat.

So, that's not the definition of corruption. That's you disagreeing with a process that 2/3 of your colleagues, while maybe not thrilled with, were satisfied with enough to ratify.

WRT weaponizing the JS, you're going to find yourself far worse off pulling that crap. I was at Jazz. Just ask the Barry vs Pulley crowd.

You're entitled to be disappointed but you seem to lack an even basic understanding of how a union works or why it's important to speak with one voice. It appears that you insist on the voice that your MEC is speaking with is yours. That's not how it works.

[braaap Braap]

Gotta love this idiot logic. As if I, or anyone else, could walk into this fraudulent organization full of corrupt people and change anything. #wOrLd ClAsS cOnTrAcT

Who specifically do you think is corrupt and what evidence do you have to support your claim?

Everyone involved in this farce: from the "I'll quit" two-faced coward MEC Chair, to the YYZ LEC rep who gave his vote to YWG, to all the other reps who voted yes to the TA. They completely disregarded their mandate of serving in the best interest of the membership, followed by a subsequent doubling down, fear mongering sell job on this garbage contract. If that's not evidence of (literal and moral) corruption, I don't know what is.

It's a nice little list of people who will never sit in my jumpseat.

The only coward is you as an anonymous keyboard warrior going on and on with 0 intention or desire to actually do something. And then to weaponize the jumpseat because your greedy ass didnt get what you want? Pathetic.

I dont even disagree with some of your criticisms and points but youre just nauseating to listen to.

[Canadianpilot2024]

[quote=30westpirate post_id=1328267 time=1734667686 user_id=107088]
[quote=Canadianpilot2024 post_id=1328230 time=1734636413 user_id=105940]
WJ contract > AC contract
[/quote]

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.
[/quote]


Comparing metrics that might happen in 20 years isn’t really a valid argument regarding 787 skipper.

Your QOL currently at AC is significantly inferior compared to WJ. (Shift trade, long call reserve, affordable bases, better travel benefits, socialized bidding, profit sharing, better vacation credit, etc)

Narrow body pay is almost the same, but WJ has profit sharing.

And they are due for a new deal in the next year or so.

I wonder what WJ pilots think about our deal, I can’t imagine they are excited going into negots with our deal as something to leap frog from.

Oh and we are a legacy carrier.. they are a LCC.

When I’m a 787 skipper the last 5 years of my career, then maybe I might feel different about this deal.

I should also mention the cost of living in YEG and YYC is significantly cheaper than AC’s bases… good luck buying a house (even as a captain) in yyz or yvr. Have fun with the taxes in yul.

[cdnavater]

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

Here’s some other gems:

- 100% employer paid health benefits (ask pilots at Transat, Porter and Jazz what their health benefit deductions are monthly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Westjet had similar deductions)
- a much better GDIP program
- probably the best pension program for any airline in the country

It appears that some of you have unknowingly joined a seniority based company expecting a lifestyle that a socialized bidding company would offer.

Just a correction, Jazz pays for all of our health benefits now, it was part of last year’s improvement.
We pay for STD because if the company paid for it, it is taxable! Right now on STD it’s 60% of our income, tax free, huge benefit,
LTD is 70% taxed!

[30westpirate]

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

Here’s some other gems:

- 100% employer paid health benefits (ask pilots at Transat, Porter and Jazz what their health benefit deductions are monthly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Westjet had similar deductions)
- a much better GDIP program
- probably the best pension program for any airline in the country

It appears that some of you have unknowingly joined a seniority based company expecting a lifestyle that a socialized bidding company would offer.

Just a correction, Jazz pays for all of our health benefits now, it was part of last year’s improvement.
We pay for STD because if the company paid for it, it is taxable! Right now on STD it’s 60% of our income, tax free, huge benefit,
LTD is 70% taxed!

Good to know, my information is a little dated.

[Me262]

Westjet 787 Captain —- Year 12 $335.25/hr $311,783/year

Westjet 737 Captain —- Year 12 $288.80/hr $268,584/year


Air Canada 787 Captain —— Year 12 $389.96/hr $350,964/year

Air Canada 737 Captain —- Year 12 $311.88/hr $280,692/year


From PCC. And in reality 787 captains at AC are doing $400k a year under the new contract.

Nice. And I’ll still go to WJ for the quality of life.

Here’s some other gems:

(ask pilots at Transat, Porter and Jazz what their health benefit deductions are monthly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Westjet had similar deductions)

472,36/month covered by the company
Sick benefit is also better (85 credits on first day of hire, renewed every year).

[thepoors]

Who specifically do you think is corrupt and what evidence do you have to support your claim?

Everyone involved in this farce: from the "I'll quit" two-faced coward MEC Chair, to the YYZ LEC rep who gave his vote to YWG, to all the other reps who voted yes to the TA. They completely disregarded their mandate of serving in the best interest of the membership, followed by a subsequent doubling down, fear mongering sell job on this garbage contract. If that's not evidence of (literal and moral) corruption, I don't know what is.

It's a nice little list of people who will never sit in my jumpseat.

So, that's not the definition of corruption. That's you disagreeing with a process that 2/3 of your colleagues, while maybe not thrilled with, were satisfied with enough to ratify.

WRT weaponizing the JS, you're going to find yourself far worse off pulling that crap. I was at Jazz. Just ask the Barry vs Pulley crowd.

You're entitled to be disappointed but you seem to lack an even basic understanding of how a union works or why it's important to speak with one voice. It appears that you insist on the voice that your MEC is speaking with is yours. That's not how it works.

Seriously bede? Your ALPA bootlicking is completely embarrassing and delusional.

2/3 were "satisfied" enough to ratify after they were told: vote yes or else... I can say with confidence 2/3 of the pilot group is not happy with this contract, even many who voted yes. They only voted yes because we were told, in no uncertain terms, we would be abandoned if this wasn't voted through. Is that how a union "works?"

[lownslow]

I can say with confidence 2/3 of the pilot group is not happy with this contract, even many who voted yes.

Is it possible they’re just politely agreeing with you so you shut up?

[Aerkavo]

I can say with confidence 2/3 of the pilot group is not happy with this contract, even many who voted yes.

Is it possible they’re just politely agreeing with you so you shut up?

Without a doubt. It's a common tactic - ask a few questions, find out what the other guy's "thing" is and just serve him that for 4 days. Nice and peaceful - no drama

[Dry Guy]

Is it possible that Transport Minister threatened the MEC with jail time? They did do some quasi-illegal shit like references to wildcat strikes in official communication. That could have been used to threaten our leaders into folding so easily.

I think that is how it went down. Minister Mackinnon said we are going to order you back immediately. The MEC said our members might just strike anyway. Steve said if they do we're going to charge the leaders criminally.

[ZBBYLW]

I can say with confidence 2/3 of the pilot group is not happy with this contract, even many who voted yes.

Is it possible they’re just politely agreeing with you so you shut up?

No. There is a lot of truth in what he says.

Most people who voted yes always say they voted yes out of fear or pressure from the union. CH and JJ are becoming exactly what they despised of ACPA

The MEC chair told us she would resign should we vote down her TA. She absolutely crumbled.

This TA was an improvement yes, but considering how far we have fallen in the last decade and the unprecedented negotiating environment the MEC yes voters was struck out not swinging on a full count. Lots of QOL items not addressed. The company put the MEC on a burning platform and they bought into it, hook line and sinker.

I am hopeful that in the new year she steps down or is removed along with her pilot fish of an executive whos ego has exploded lately.

It's amazing how well AC FOPs management played these guys.

[Bede]

Seriously bede? Your ALPA bootlicking is completely embarrassing and delusional.

2/3 were "satisfied" enough to ratify after they were told: vote yes or else... I can say with confidence 2/3 of the pilot group is not happy with this contract, even many who voted yes. They only voted yes because we were told, in no uncertain terms, we would be abandoned if this wasn't voted through. Is that how a union "works?"

I'm a proud union man and ALPA is my union. I make no apologies. What's the alternative?

What you're doing is sowing disunity. You are playing into management's wishes perfectly by allowing yourself to be divided away from your colleagues.