FOAG 2025

[IndianJones]

For updates and differences

[dALre]

Major improvements for the commuters I can see.

Not much of retention awards for the ppl before the E2 CA.
I think more FOs are leaving to AC with this compensation package.

[Piperclub]

Addition of Merger clause and Wet lease

[Speedbrakes]

Addition of Merger clause and Wet lease

And scope clause.

[Me262]

Major improvements for the commuters I can see.

Not much of retention awards for the ppl before the E2 CA.
I think more FOs are leaving to AC with this compensation package.

So AC negotiated their new contract perfectly if they will have plenty of new blood with the mediocre FO rates until year 5 at minimum. Probably won't even have to drop their 2000 requirements.

[Whatsagambit?]

What are the new rates of you don't mind me asking. Not a porter pilot. Just curious.

[CaptDukeNukem]

What are the new rates of you don't mind me asking. Not a porter pilot. Just curious.

[steedeel]

Would anyone mind sharing what these new clauses represent? And what are the exact improvements for commuters, reserve, etc?
Someone looking at Porter in the near future.
Thanks.

[Me262]

Someone was drunk when making up the paytable for the first 3 years E2 FO? Or they tried to emulate some sort of "flat pay"?

[flyingpilot]

Good thing the FOs got that $1 increase in year 2

[cjp]

Someone was drunk when making up the paytable for the first 3 years E2 FO? Or they tried to emulate some sort of "flat pay"?

I think you're looking at the Dash side.

E2, had $17 change from Yr1 to 2, and $18. Unfortunately only a $1 change from current tables in YR2.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Would anyone mind sharing what these new clauses represent? And what are the exact improvements for commuters, reserve, etc?
Someone looking at Porter in the near future.
Thanks.

All porter flying needs to be done by porter pilots apart from new deliveries. Wet leases are possible for a max of 120 days.

I’ll let someone else figure out commuting and reserve improvements

[CaptDukeNukem]

Someone was drunk when making up the paytable for the first 3 years E2 FO? Or they tried to emulate some sort of "flat pay"?

I think you're looking at the Dash side.

E2, had $17 change from Yr1 to 2, and $18. Unfortunately only a $1 change from current tables in YR2.

He’s not, year 2 FO e2 goes from 100$ to 101$. Arguably your MMG went up by 2.5 hours. So that’s two and a half dollars a month.

[goingnowherefast]

E2 captains made the biggest gains. Still underwhelming, but good for them.
When was the last Porter pay update, summer 2023? With inflation, these seem to be just barely keeping up.

What were the ALPA negotiating resources able to do at AC? 26% initially + 4%/yr? I'm not saying ALPA would have gotten 43% out of Porter, but it is food for thought.


Merger clause is interesting. What's the budget for legal council regarding seniority integration?

Scope? But isn't it still management's document they can amend at their will and no legal teeth?

[PRM1]

That is false. All changes must be approved by the foag committee. Read the entire package before making false claims.

[TPP]

That is false. All changes must be approved by the foag committee. Read the entire package before making false claims.

Scope and merger protection via FOAG has zero legal protections.

It's a document that can be changed via bulletin on Friday night.

[flyinhigh]

That is false. All changes must be approved by the foag committee. Read the entire package before making false claims.

Comfy words they put there to which is BS. This is a POLICY document. This VOTE will occur next month to give the impression of we hear you (first vote in Porters history, I wonder why), yet in a month they can simply go we can't do this or that and change it as they see fit. Unilateral changes CAN and will occur as they have numerous times in the past year.

If the FOAG committee is agreeing to copy/paste wording from the likes of the ACPA agreement as is where our REA came from, our min/wide arc came from than get rid of them all. Its the opposite infact that even the FOAG reps admitted to being sold on things and they are not being used as was discussed.

The SCOPE language is cute and can be circumvented in a minute, and they conveniently left off important elements,
1) No codeshare
2) No Joint Venture (currently in with TS. Ask any TS pilot how they feel about that and what they will be putting into their contract next round).
3) No successorship
4) No Divesture
5) No Single Pilot
6) Merger, mmm so we can negotiate with the Company but NOT the other pilot group?... ok, whos paying for the lawyers.
7) Legal, if you're at fault your'e on your own.

Oh look, they put recall elements for an FOAG rep which is nice to give process. But seriously, 25% of the pilot group needs to write into the FOAG group to force a recall. That'll never happen.

Really folks, they spent more time trying to fend off the Union drive and replicate what ALPA can do than fix work rules. It is a step in the right direction for sure but due to the hype, was a smack in the face. This should have come out MONTHS ago.

Pay is the same as WestJet essentially (minus pension and YOS), Commuting is protected now but with the never ending threat of being written up (or kicked from the program), Banked deadheads are a thing soon so that good.

Schedules still take 3 weeks to be official from closing of bid, Trainers still get to choose gravy PULLED pairings out of seniority (2 reps are trainers), no change to vacation allotment weeks (very unbalanced throughout the year).

Overall it is a big MEAH. I'll be signing an ALPA card pretty quick when they launch as this did nothing to sway me.

[rudder]

That is false. All changes must be approved by the foag committee. Read the entire package before making false claims.

Comfy words they put there to which is BS. This is a POLICY document. This VOTE will occur next month to give the impression of we hear you (first vote in Porters history, I wonder why), yet in a month they can simply go we can't do this or that and change it as they see fit. Unilateral changes CAN and will occur as they have numerous times in the past year.

If the FOAG committee is agreeing to copy/paste wording from the likes of the ACPA agreement as is where our REA came from, our min/wide arc came from than get rid of them all. Its the opposite infact that even the FOAG reps admitted to being sold on things and they are not being used as was discussed.

The SCOPE language is cute and can be circumvented in a minute, and they conveniently left off important elements,
1) No codeshare
2) No Joint Venture (currently in with TS. Ask any TS pilot how they feel about that and what they will be putting into their contract next round).
3) No successorship
4) No Divesture
5) No Single Pilot
6) Merger, mmm so we can negotiate with the Company but NOT the other pilot group?... ok, whos paying for the lawyers.
7) Legal, if you're at fault your'e on your own.

Oh look, they put recall elements for an FOAG rep which is nice to give process. But seriously, 25% of the pilot group needs to write into the FOAG group to force a recall. That'll never happen.

Really folks, they spent more time trying to fend off the Union drive and replicate what ALPA can do than fix work rules. It is a step in the right direction for sure but due to the hype, was a smack in the face. This should have come out MONTHS ago.

Pay is the same as WestJet essentially (minus pension and YOS), Commuting is protected now but with the never ending threat of being written up (or kicked from the program), Banked deadheads are a thing soon so that good.

Schedules still take 3 weeks to be official from closing of bid, Trainers still get to choose gravy PULLED pairings out of seniority (2 reps are trainers), no change to vacation allotment weeks (very unbalanced throughout the year).

Overall it is a big MEAH. I'll be signing an ALPA card pretty quick when they launch as this did nothing to sway me.

I applaud Porter for increasing pay rates without obligation, albeit on a purely targeted basis. What would the highest tenured E2 CA be? Year 4? 5? Rates aren’t nearly as scary as they appear, yet.

It is clear that Porter needs to preserve the E2 expansion plan and the most critical choke point is E2 CA. Porter expects to lose FO’s to AC. What they want to do is retain E2 CA and Q CA to sustain the E2 plan. This is the exact opposite of what AC and WJ are doing - they are simply taking back flying to mainline and shrinking their Express flying.

For those that are staying, pension should be a priority. At least 18% should be going in and you should expect the employer to be funding at least half (or more) of those contributions.

As for the rest of it (QOL/job security/etc) that will form part if the ongoing ALPA debate.

Good luck.

[BaldChewbacca]

This has been an incredibly disappointing benchmark. Porter is trying to become a major airline without compensating their pilots accordingly. It's not just the salary. It's a lack of pension. Lack of benefits. The fact that any of these improvements can be clawed back just because.

I'm still here because I like where I live, and that's it. If you're a Porter pilot (particularly on the dash) living in Toronto, you seriously need to give your head a shake and ask yourself why you are working for such a discount. You're worth more than what Porter tells you you're worth

[cdnavater]

Surprisingly, to me at least, the biggest raises went to E2 Captain but as rudder said not many will be on the year 5 and up, if any.
I don’t believe much in the way of YOS were granted to long time Q Captains who came over, which frankly is BS.
Once you are a Captain, YOS on every type should accrue, you should never go back after that. Obviously, if this is not the case please correct me but any company in Canada that has multiple types, once you are a Captain on any type, you slide in at your current scale on the new type.
The scale itself, seems not too bad, I’m not sure how it compares to others, someone mentioned WJ scale, that’s decent for the type!
Can someone explain the different compensation packages referred to?
Are there different packages that contain a different pay scale if you want other improvements elsewhere?

[8895]

Surprisingly, to me at least, the biggest raises went to E2 Captain but as rudder said not many will be on the year 5 and up, if any.
I don’t believe much in the way of YOS were granted to long time Q Captains who came over, which frankly is BS.
Once you are a Captain, YOS on every type should accrue, you should never go back after that. Obviously, if this is not the case please correct me but any company in Canada that has multiple types, once you are a Captain on any type, you slide in at your current scale on the new type.
The scale itself, seems not too bad, I’m not sure how it compares to others, someone mentioned WJ scale, that’s decent for the type!
Can someone explain the different compensation packages referred to?
Are there different packages that contain a different pay scale if you want other improvements elsewhere?

For once I’ll keep it civil, is Christmas Eve after all.

The different packages contain the same pay scales, simply different work rules. Pilot group seems very confused because one seems like the clear choice, while the other exists maybe just to give the illusion of choice?

I can confidently say I don’t think this benchmark could’ve been received any worse by the pilot group. If AC doesn’t already have a stack of E2 FO resumes I have little doubt they’ll have a pile of them in the new year. Bold strategy cotton

[Flaps_30]

What about all the other aspects? Is there any kind of commuting policy? Reserve times? Still having to pay for your own food and hotel during training?

[cdnavater]

Surprisingly, to me at least, the biggest raises went to E2 Captain but as rudder said not many will be on the year 5 and up, if any.
I don’t believe much in the way of YOS were granted to long time Q Captains who came over, which frankly is BS.
Once you are a Captain, YOS on every type should accrue, you should never go back after that. Obviously, if this is not the case please correct me but any company in Canada that has multiple types, once you are a Captain on any type, you slide in at your current scale on the new type.
The scale itself, seems not too bad, I’m not sure how it compares to others, someone mentioned WJ scale, that’s decent for the type!
Can someone explain the different compensation packages referred to?
Are there different packages that contain a different pay scale if you want other improvements elsewhere?

For once I’ll keep it civil, is Christmas Eve after all.

The different packages contain the same pay scales, simply different work rules. Pilot group seems very confused because one seems like the clear choice, while the other exists maybe just to give the illusion of choice?

I can confidently say I don’t think this benchmark could’ve been received any worse by the pilot group. If AC doesn’t already have a stack of E2 FO resumes I have little doubt they’ll have a pile of them in the new year. Bold strategy cotton

I appreciate that, Merry Christmas!

[Realitychex]

How do these rates compare to other airlines operating narrow body twin jets with a network ASL north of 1,400 miles?

Air Canada and United come to mind.

Delta and AA are lower. Southwest was just 736 miles.

[flyinhigh]

What about all the other aspects? Is there any kind of commuting policy? Reserve times? Still having to pay for your own food and hotel during training?

Commuting - Yes you can commute (always have), but it is kinda grey. They essentially went back to the old way of no discipline as long as you use due diligence.

Reserve Times- are you referring to time on reserve? If so that all depends on how fast the hiring goes. My guess is, If you come in now you'll be off pretty fast as the attrition just went up again.

Training - yeah thats not going to change any time soon.