FOAG 2025

[Pratt X 3]

Looks like they have corrected the pay cut for 2nd year FOs and matched the 2015 CPI amount at $101.50 going forward. So the hourly rate increase is flat at 0.0%. Still some pay cuts rate-wise in the later years of the E2 FO scale but hopefully that is fixed before anyone reaches that.

ALPA will fix it for them.

Is the FOAG always this full of errors? Perhaps it's time for professionally supported contract negotiations. Fewer errors and loopholes to be exploited.

I wouldn't say it's full of errors, but professional negotiators would definitely help. FOAG committee members still work an almost full schedule so they can get stretched pretty thin between all of their responsibilities.
To be fair, the benchmark uses monthly salary to compare to direct competitor companies on equivalent equipment based on published hourly rates and the minimum monthly guarantee (MMG) of hours. It's that monthly salary that is then used to set the benchmark and then converted to an hourly rate. Some rounding errors occurred but the big picture was looked at and in fact, the 2nd year E2 FO's yearly salary has been the second largest increase over the past 2 years going from $69,408 to $94,395 (+36%). The only greater increase was a first-year Q400 FO going from $48,009.60 to $68,820 (+43.35%).

[braaap Braap]

ALPA will fix it for them.

Is the FOAG always this full of errors? Perhaps it's time for professionally supported contract negotiations. Fewer errors and loopholes to be exploited.

I wouldn't say it's full of errors, but professional negotiators would definitely help. FOAG committee members still work an almost full schedule so they can get stretched pretty thin between all of their responsibilities.
To be fair, the benchmark uses monthly salary to compare to direct competitor companies on equivalent equipment based on published hourly rates and the minimum monthly guarantee (MMG) of hours. It's that monthly salary that is then used to set the benchmark and then converted to an hourly rate. Some rounding errors occurred but the big picture was looked at and in fact, the 2nd year E2 FO's yearly salary has been the second largest increase over the past 2 years going from $69,408 to $94,395 (+36%). The only greater increase was a first-year Q400 FO going from $48,009.60 to $68,820 (+43.35%).

Good points! Seems like we're seeing the difference between pattern bargaining and benchmarking. Porter always tried to be aggressively average. I guess its just frustrating when some benchmarking rounds they stick to the math compared to other carriers and then other rounds they decide to set new courses and shake up the industry. This round the E2 CAs got a good chunk despite 0 retention issues because the averaging amongst the carriers dictated it to the displeasure of the E2 FO group. Sounds like many of them are updating resumes and logbooks.

[Pratt X 3]

Is the FOAG always this full of errors? Perhaps it's time for professionally supported contract negotiations. Fewer errors and loopholes to be exploited.

I wouldn't say it's full of errors, but professional negotiators would definitely help. FOAG committee members still work an almost full schedule so they can get stretched pretty thin between all of their responsibilities.
To be fair, the benchmark uses monthly salary to compare to direct competitor companies on equivalent equipment based on published hourly rates and the minimum monthly guarantee (MMG) of hours. It's that monthly salary that is then used to set the benchmark and then converted to an hourly rate. Some rounding errors occurred but the big picture was looked at and in fact, the 2nd year E2 FO's yearly salary has been the second largest increase over the past 2 years going from $69,408 to $94,395 (+36%). The only greater increase was a first-year Q400 FO going from $48,009.60 to $68,820 (+43.35%).

Good points! Seems like we're seeing the difference between pattern bargaining and benchmarking. Porter always tried to be aggressively average. I guess its just frustrating when some benchmarking rounds they stick to the math compared to other carriers and then other rounds they decide to set new courses and shake up the industry. This round the E2 CAs got a good chunk despite 0 retention issues because the averaging amongst the carriers dictated it to the displeasure of the E2 FO group. Sounds like many of them are updating resumes and logbooks.

There is a factor that adds a bit of complexity to this and that is the 'fence' put up to ensure that Q400 Captains pay rates remain above the E2 FO rates. And while the Q400 Captain rates are the highest in the industry (comparing benchmark airlines), they can't increase them too much which in turn limits the amount the E2 FO's rate increases. They also don't want to shut the door on the option of a pilot going from E2 FO to Q400 Captain, which seems to be the preferred path that the company would like for those who don't have previous command time on transport category aircraft.
As for the displeasure in the E2 FO group, I hope that when it comes down to making the decision to stay or go, they have looked at it through their own eyes and not the hive mindset of the group chats that seem to be getting everyone all riled up. In the end, only you can do what you think is best for you and only you will have to live with the decision.

[braaap Braap]

This round the E2 CAs got a good chunk despite 0 retention issues because the averaging amongst the carriers dictated it to the displeasure of the E2 FO group. Sounds like many of them are updating resumes and logbooks.

There is a factor that adds a bit of complexity to this and that is the 'fence' put up to ensure that Q400 Captains pay rates remain above the E2 FO rates. And while the Q400 Captain rates are the highest in the industry (comparing benchmark airlines), they can't increase them too much which in turn limits the amount the E2 FO's rate increases. They also don't want to shut the door on the option of a pilot going from E2 FO to Q400 Captain, which seems to be the preferred path that the company would like for those who don't have previous command time on transport category aircraft.
As for the displeasure in the E2 FO group, I hope that when it comes down to making the decision to stay or go, they have looked at it through their own eyes and not the hive mindset of the group chats that seem to be getting everyone all riled up. In the end, only you can do what you think is best for you and only you will have to live with the decision.

That's certainly a good way to put it. I think many of these people are bluffing as I can't imagine throwing away all that seniority over $0.50/hr then again maybe as someone said it's the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Canpilot7]

This round the E2 CAs got a good chunk despite 0 retention issues because the averaging amongst the carriers dictated it to the displeasure of the E2 FO group. Sounds like many of them are updating resumes and logbooks.

There is a factor that adds a bit of complexity to this and that is the 'fence' put up to ensure that Q400 Captains pay rates remain above the E2 FO rates. And while the Q400 Captain rates are the highest in the industry (comparing benchmark airlines), they can't increase them too much which in turn limits the amount the E2 FO's rate increases. They also don't want to shut the door on the option of a pilot going from E2 FO to Q400 Captain, which seems to be the preferred path that the company would like for those who don't have previous command time on transport category aircraft.
As for the displeasure in the E2 FO group, I hope that when it comes down to making the decision to stay or go, they have looked at it through their own eyes and not the hive mindset of the group chats that seem to be getting everyone all riled up. In the end, only you can do what you think is best for you and only you will have to live with the decision.

That's certainly a good way to put it. I think many of these people are bluffing as I can't imagine throwing away all that seniority over $0.50/hr then again maybe as someone said it's the straw that broke the camel's back.

I can appreciate E2 FOs being disappointed. I think more of them planned on trying to make a career at porter than most people give them credit for. But considering how comparable this pay scale looks like vs the 220 at AC, where they'd get seniority quickly as the 220 pilots start upgrading onto all of the WB equipment there, it just makes sense that most there will at least be trying to make the move. Staying gives them almost nothing up front while giving up all the upside.

In my opinion, those FOs certainly did their part showing faith in porter. This pay scale just doesn't come close to matching their commitment.

[Pratt X 3]

I can appreciate E2 FOs being disappointed. I think more of them planned on trying to make a career at porter than most people give them credit for. But considering how comparable this pay scale looks like vs the 220 at AC, where they'd get seniority quickly as the 220 pilots start upgrading onto all of the WB equipment there, it just makes sense that most there will at least be trying to make the move. Staying gives them almost nothing up front while giving up all the upside.

In my opinion, those FOs certainly did their part showing faith in porter. This pay scale just doesn't come close to matching their commitment.

Such strange rhetoric for an operation not even 2 years old yet.

What pay scale would have matched their commitment?

[8895]

I can appreciate E2 FOs being disappointed. I think more of them planned on trying to make a career at porter than most people give them credit for. But considering how comparable this pay scale looks like vs the 220 at AC, where they'd get seniority quickly as the 220 pilots start upgrading onto all of the WB equipment there, it just makes sense that most there will at least be trying to make the move. Staying gives them almost nothing up front while giving up all the upside.

In my opinion, those FOs certainly did their part showing faith in porter. This pay scale just doesn't come close to matching their commitment.

Such strange rhetoric for an operation not even 2 years old yet.

What pay scale would have matched their commitment?

Not really strange to say when they’re giving up seniority at big red to help support a startup in hopes of having a career here. Not to mention considering our benefits are worse than most 703’s, Porter salaries should be MUCH higher to help compensate for this if it’s not something they’re willing to address. Comparing raw pay rate numbers between AC and porter is certainly not an apples to apples comparison for compensation.

[Canpilot7]

I can appreciate E2 FOs being disappointed. I think more of them planned on trying to make a career at porter than most people give them credit for. But considering how comparable this pay scale looks like vs the 220 at AC, where they'd get seniority quickly as the 220 pilots start upgrading onto all of the WB equipment there, it just makes sense that most there will at least be trying to make the move. Staying gives them almost nothing up front while giving up all the upside.

In my opinion, those FOs certainly did their part showing faith in porter. This pay scale just doesn't come close to matching their commitment.

Such strange rhetoric for an operation not even 2 years old yet.

What pay scale would have matched their commitment?

Well by "commitment" I mean that they bought into the porter vision a lot more than people seem to think. Plenty would stay, and maybe some still do. What pay scale would have matched? One where the pilots wanting to stay could justify it without giving up massive sums of money. Between pensions, benefits and the pay scale they'd be giving up a fortune.

[goingnowherefast]

Porter seems to be a really good place to work. Most of the Porter pilots I bump into enjoy it. The opportunity and hope that comes with an expansion, and a management team that wants to do well and fix operational issues.

However, given that they didn't notice the e2 pay cut. They had to have the pay cut pointed out and corrected, I completely understand why e2 FOs would feel disrespected and under appreciated.

I'm wondering if it isn't even about the money. e2 FOs aren't the highest paid, but they do remain solidly above average as NB FOs in Canada (for the first couple years). I wonder if it's the pay cut, and then the response to the pay cut that's being viewed as insulting. A good employee is pretty quick to loose the vision and optimism of a company when insulted like this.

Fixing the morale issue is going to be very expensive in terms of resignations and whatever they try to fix morale and the resulting attrition. Should have just ensured the minimum raise was 3% or something, it would have been cheaper.

[8895]

Porter seems to be a really good place to work. Most of the Porter pilots I bump into enjoy it. The opportunity and hope that comes with an expansion, and a management team that wants to do well and fix operational issues.

However, given that they didn't notice the e2 pay cut. They had to have the pay cut pointed out and corrected, I completely understand why e2 FOs would feel disrespected and under appreciated.

I'm wondering if it isn't even about the money. e2 FOs aren't the highest paid, but they do remain solidly above average as NB FOs in Canada (for the first couple years). I wonder if it's the pay cut, and then the response to the pay cut that's being viewed as insulting. A good employee is pretty quick to loose the vision and optimism of a company when insulted like this.

Fixing the morale issue is going to be very expensive in terms of resignations and whatever they try to fix morale and the resulting attrition. Should have just ensured the minimum raise was 3% or something, it would have been cheaper.

From what I can see, you’re 100% right in terms of how things have been handled. The FO’s are now being told “well over the last TWO benchmarks you’ve made 30% gains” and to stop complaining essentially. Having an “oversight” on the year 2 rate as well as not even bothering to adjust the scales to remain competitive after year 4 seems to signal that FO’s were certainly not thought about.

When you have captains from every cohort of the seniority list telling you to apply to AC it’s pretty obvious it’s not just the FO’s that feel like they were slighted. With FO’s at AC less than 2 years in bidding in the top 20% NB YYZ it’s gonna be a tough sell for management here to sell them on seniority. They also seem adamant that attrition has remained at 5%, but I’d be more interested to hear that number in 3-4 months from now.

On a more general note, this benchmark has failed the pilot group as a whole, not just E2 FO’s. It looks like the company is willing to whipsaw reserve line holders against commuters. Seems apparent that they want to attract and retain by being appealing to commuters, although the language and carrot dangling in the agreement to try and appeal to this is still very weak.

[Pratt X 3]

Porter seems to be a really good place to work. Most of the Porter pilots I bump into enjoy it. The opportunity and hope that comes with an expansion, and a management team that wants to do well and fix operational issues.

However, given that they didn't notice the e2 pay cut. They had to have the pay cut pointed out and corrected, I completely understand why e2 FOs would feel disrespected and under appreciated.

I'm wondering if it isn't even about the money. e2 FOs aren't the highest paid, but they do remain solidly above average as NB FOs in Canada (for the first couple years). I wonder if it's the pay cut, and then the response to the pay cut that's being viewed as insulting. A good employee is pretty quick to loose the vision and optimism of a company when insulted like this.

Fixing the morale issue is going to be very expensive in terms of resignations and whatever they try to fix morale and the resulting attrition. Should have just ensured the minimum raise was 3% or something, it would have been cheaper.

From what I can see, you’re 100% right in terms of how things have been handled. The FO’s are now being told “well over the last TWO benchmarks you’ve made 30% gains” and to stop complaining essentially. Having an “oversight” on the year 2 rate as well as not even bothering to adjust the scales to remain competitive after year 4 seems to signal that FO’s were certainly not thought about.

When you have captains from every cohort of the seniority list telling you to apply to AC it’s pretty obvious it’s not just the FO’s that feel like they were slighted. With FO’s at AC less than 2 years in bidding in the top 20% NB YYZ it’s gonna be a tough sell for management here to sell them on seniority. They also seem adamant that attrition has remained at 5%, but I’d be more interested to hear that number in 3-4 months from now.

On a more general note, this benchmark has failed the pilot group as a whole, not just E2 FO’s. It looks like the company is willing to whipsaw reserve line holders against commuters. Seems apparent that they want to attract and retain by being appealing to commuters, although the language and carrot dangling in the agreement to try and appeal to this is still very weak.

I stand by my statement that this rhetoric is strange and will now add, overcharged.

Now let me get this straight. The company is so evil and manipulative that they have planned all this yet they can't do simple math? And AIR CANADA is the savior in this scenario? Now I know y'all be trippin'. Or you haven't had the pleasure of working for a real evil company. Either way, someone is out there stirring the pot and getting everyone all worked up.

My biggest concern is someone is going to make a career decision based on the loudest voice in the room/chat/flightdeck which might not be what is best for that individual. There still seems to be some confusion floating around on the changes proposed that are muddying the waters. If someone is thinking of making a change, I sincerely hope they do their due diligence and try to make the best decision for themselves.

[rudder]

My biggest concern is someone is going to make a career decision based on the loudest voice in the room/chat/flightdeck which might not be what is best for that individual. There still seems to be some confusion floating around on the changes proposed that are muddying the waters. If someone is thinking of making a change, I sincerely hope they do their due diligence and try to make the best decision for themselves.

With all due respect, from an earnings and pension perspective, there is no favourable career based comparison that places Porter above AC. That disparity is exacerbated by age (the younger the comparator pilot the greater the disparity).

Similar for professional opportunity. Access to WB long haul flying (and earnings) vs NB North America/Caribbean. No different than could be argued for a former SW pilot or Flair pilot.

This is not to say that there are not valid QOL arguments to be made in favour of Porter. And for many pilots, job security over a career that will span several decades is also a significant consideration.

Thus far, Porter has allocated the majority of the $$ at NB CA pay scales (this is absolute payroll dollars, not rate of increase). Without this cohort, E2 program expansion would grind to a halt.

All pilots should make informed decisions about career choices. Pay. Pension. Benefits. QOL. Job security. All should be considered and the individual is the one that assigns order of priority which may result in a different decision.

[8895]

Porter seems to be a really good place to work. Most of the Porter pilots I bump into enjoy it. The opportunity and hope that comes with an expansion, and a management team that wants to do well and fix operational issues.

However, given that they didn't notice the e2 pay cut. They had to have the pay cut pointed out and corrected, I completely understand why e2 FOs would feel disrespected and under appreciated.

I'm wondering if it isn't even about the money. e2 FOs aren't the highest paid, but they do remain solidly above average as NB FOs in Canada (for the first couple years). I wonder if it's the pay cut, and then the response to the pay cut that's being viewed as insulting. A good employee is pretty quick to loose the vision and optimism of a company when insulted like this.

Fixing the morale issue is going to be very expensive in terms of resignations and whatever they try to fix morale and the resulting attrition. Should have just ensured the minimum raise was 3% or something, it would have been cheaper.

From what I can see, you’re 100% right in terms of how things have been handled. The FO’s are now being told “well over the last TWO benchmarks you’ve made 30% gains” and to stop complaining essentially. Having an “oversight” on the year 2 rate as well as not even bothering to adjust the scales to remain competitive after year 4 seems to signal that FO’s were certainly not thought about.

When you have captains from every cohort of the seniority list telling you to apply to AC it’s pretty obvious it’s not just the FO’s that feel like they were slighted. With FO’s at AC less than 2 years in bidding in the top 20% NB YYZ it’s gonna be a tough sell for management here to sell them on seniority. They also seem adamant that attrition has remained at 5%, but I’d be more interested to hear that number in 3-4 months from now.

On a more general note, this benchmark has failed the pilot group as a whole, not just E2 FO’s. It looks like the company is willing to whipsaw reserve line holders against commuters. Seems apparent that they want to attract and retain by being appealing to commuters, although the language and carrot dangling in the agreement to try and appeal to this is still very weak.

I stand by my statement that this rhetoric is strange and will now add, overcharged.

Now let me get this straight. The company is so evil and manipulative that they have planned all this yet they can't do simple math? And AIR CANADA is the savior in this scenario? Now I know y'all be trippin'. Or you haven't had the pleasure of working for a real evil company. Either way, someone is out there stirring the pot and getting everyone all worked up.

My biggest concern is someone is going to make a career decision based on the loudest voice in the room/chat/flightdeck which might not be what is best for that individual. There still seems to be some confusion floating around on the changes proposed that are muddying the waters. If someone is thinking of making a change, I sincerely hope they do their due diligence and try to make the best decision for themselves.

I don’t think anyone is oblivious to how awful AC management treats its employees. The difference is the vast increase in compensation and job security make it worth it to tolerate for a lot of pilots I imagine. Like the last comment mentioned, a lot of the FO’s are early in their careers and simply trying to make the right decision. Don’t think it’s too much of an ask to have the company make it an attractive option for them with such a long career ahead.

I’d be even more concerned if there wasn’t complaining tbh, this agreement isn’t very good and if people weren’t complaining then that means they already have one foot out the door and don’t care.

[Pratt X 3]

My biggest concern is someone is going to make a career decision based on the loudest voice in the room/chat/flightdeck which might not be what is best for that individual. There still seems to be some confusion floating around on the changes proposed that are muddying the waters. If someone is thinking of making a change, I sincerely hope they do their due diligence and try to make the best decision for themselves.

With all due respect, from an earnings and pension perspective, there is no favourable career based comparison that places Porter above AC. That disparity is exacerbated by age (the younger the comparator pilot the greater the disparity).

Similar for professional opportunity. Access to WB long haul flying (and earnings) vs NB North America/Caribbean. No different than could be argued for a former SW pilot or Flair pilot.

This is not to say that there are not valid QOL arguments to be made in favour of Porter. And for many pilots, job security over a career that will span several decades is also a significant consideration.

Thus far, Porter has allocated the majority of the $$ at NB CA pay scales (this is absolute payroll dollars, not rate of increase). Without this cohort, E2 program expansion would grind to a halt.

All pilots should make informed decisions about career choices. Pay. Pension. Benefits. QOL. Job security. All should be considered and the individual is the one that assigns order of priority which may result in a different decision.

A very eloquent response that is greatly appreciated. And while I agree that Porter cannot beat AC in those aspects, it has to be said that not everyone will get to AC and those who do, not everyone is guaranteed to achieve the highest levels of those factors you listed. All while dealing with similar challenges and issues that they are trying to escape from (flat pay, low seniority) on a much bigger playing field.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that this all started as a regular, annual salary benchmark with an update to the FOAG to address the concerns of the pilot group as laid out in the survey. Between the roll-out delays, the not-quite-clear summary of changes, the heated discussions in the chatrooms, the missed opportunity to course-correct at the roadshows along with the underlying ALPA drive has pushed the emotional response to an all-time high. Dial back the rhetoric, read what is actually being proposed, apply the numbers that have been provided to what your career path and goals are and then make an informed decision.

[Pratt X 3]

From what I can see, you’re 100% right in terms of how things have been handled. The FO’s are now being told “well over the last TWO benchmarks you’ve made 30% gains” and to stop complaining essentially. Having an “oversight” on the year 2 rate as well as not even bothering to adjust the scales to remain competitive after year 4 seems to signal that FO’s were certainly not thought about.

When you have captains from every cohort of the seniority list telling you to apply to AC it’s pretty obvious it’s not just the FO’s that feel like they were slighted. With FO’s at AC less than 2 years in bidding in the top 20% NB YYZ it’s gonna be a tough sell for management here to sell them on seniority. They also seem adamant that attrition has remained at 5%, but I’d be more interested to hear that number in 3-4 months from now.

On a more general note, this benchmark has failed the pilot group as a whole, not just E2 FO’s. It looks like the company is willing to whipsaw reserve line holders against commuters. Seems apparent that they want to attract and retain by being appealing to commuters, although the language and carrot dangling in the agreement to try and appeal to this is still very weak.

I stand by my statement that this rhetoric is strange and will now add, overcharged.

Now let me get this straight. The company is so evil and manipulative that they have planned all this yet they can't do simple math? And AIR CANADA is the savior in this scenario? Now I know y'all be trippin'. Or you haven't had the pleasure of working for a real evil company. Either way, someone is out there stirring the pot and getting everyone all worked up.

My biggest concern is someone is going to make a career decision based on the loudest voice in the room/chat/flightdeck which might not be what is best for that individual. There still seems to be some confusion floating around on the changes proposed that are muddying the waters. If someone is thinking of making a change, I sincerely hope they do their due diligence and try to make the best decision for themselves.

I don’t think anyone is oblivious to how awful AC management treats its employees. The difference is the vast increase in compensation and job security make it worth it to tolerate for a lot of pilots I imagine. Like the last comment mentioned, a lot of the FO’s are early in their careers and simply trying to make the right decision. Don’t think it’s too much of an ask to have the company make it an attractive option for them with such a long career ahead.

I’d be even more concerned if there wasn’t complaining tbh, this agreement isn’t very good and if people weren’t complaining then that means they already have one foot out the door and don’t care.

Well said and I agree with everything.

That word 'agreement' might be a key to why this is playing out as it is. People seem to have expectations or the belief that this is a collective agreement with the new language and a vote to accept one of two proposals combined with the APLA drive happening at the same time when, in reality, it is still just the FOAG, a guide. It may, someday, become the basis of a CA should there be a certification of an association or union, but for now, the vote is nothing more than asking for the majority opinion on the differences between the two proposals.

[cjp]

I stand by my statement that this rhetoric is strange and will now add, overcharged.

Now let me get this straight. The company is so evil and manipulative that they have planned all this yet they can't do simple math? And AIR CANADA is the savior in this scenario? Now I know y'all be trippin'. Or you haven't had the pleasure of working for a real evil company. Either way, someone is out there stirring the pot and getting everyone all worked up.

My biggest concern is someone is going to make a career decision based on the loudest voice in the room/chat/flightdeck which might not be what is best for that individual. There still seems to be some confusion floating around on the changes proposed that are muddying the waters. If someone is thinking of making a change, I sincerely hope they do their due diligence and try to make the best decision for themselves.

I don’t think anyone is oblivious to how awful AC management treats its employees. The difference is the vast increase in compensation and job security make it worth it to tolerate for a lot of pilots I imagine. Like the last comment mentioned, a lot of the FO’s are early in their careers and simply trying to make the right decision. Don’t think it’s too much of an ask to have the company make it an attractive option for them with such a long career ahead.

I’d be even more concerned if there wasn’t complaining tbh, this agreement isn’t very good and if people weren’t complaining then that means they already have one foot out the door and don’t care.

Well said and I agree with everything.

That word 'agreement' might be a key to why this is playing out as it is. People seem to have expectations or the belief that this is a collective agreement with the new language and a vote to accept one of two proposals combined with the APLA drive happening at the same time when, in reality, it is still just the FOAG, a guide. It may, someday, become the basis of a CA should there be a certification of an association or union, but for now, the vote is nothing more than asking for the majority opinion on the differences between the two proposals.

Unfortunately the FOAG 2025 documents fell incredibly flat despite a lot of hoopla, while allowing a delaying of implementation when there is minor differences discerning the two.

It feels like they are gambling with staffing and interest to see who flinches first.

[flyinhigh]

A very eloquent response that is greatly appreciated. And while I agree that Porter cannot beat AC in those aspects, it has to be said that not everyone will get to AC and those who do, not everyone is guaranteed to achieve the highest levels of those factors you listed. All while dealing with similar challenges and issues that they are trying to escape from (flat pay, low seniority) on a much bigger playing field.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that this all started as a regular, annual salary benchmark with an update to the FOAG to address the concerns of the pilot group as laid out in the survey. Between the roll-out delays, the not-quite-clear summary of changes, the heated discussions in the chatrooms, the missed opportunity to course-correct at the roadshows along with the underlying ALPA drive has pushed the emotional response to an all-time high. Dial back the rhetoric, read what is actually being proposed, apply the numbers that have been provided to what your career path and goals are and then make an informed decision.

This is the problem. We have been promised GOOD things are coming since about August AFTER a year (at that point) of constant concessions. They FOAG committee consistently said this was bench mark like no other. Thats fantastic, however this could have been released in Oct, shortly after the AC TA.

Fact is, it continued on as the ALPA folks did there first all pilot call and things got real for the company. The pressure was on, so the benchmark was delayed and we ended up with what is literally a guideline to try and stop ALPA. Lets replicate what ALPA is, while still not being legal.

As for the above, I did READ what was proposed and my gawd did I have alot of questions, which lead to the committee and the company openly saying "Ummm, Uhhhhh, we need to take that back". Sorry but our own President praised how "quick they got this together, while our competitors took 2 years". Know what the competitors don't have? Many article's going back for discussion as they rushed out this POS.

As for what else was written. The ALPA group has done nothing but show they want to be collaborative, and unified. This benchmark is 100% reminiscent of ACPA and creates nothing but division. ONLY the top 10% of the MSL gets to bid accurately in bid round one, then they are going to pull training pairings for trainers to bid out of seniority, then everyone else will get to bid with a bid window of THREE DAYS. All this leads to Great unification and collaboration. Also, did I mention everyone on the FOAG is quite senior or a trainer.

Anyway, the Porter Pilots seem to be onto what the FOAG truly is and ALPA cannot come quick enough.

[CaptDukeNukem]

A very eloquent response that is greatly appreciated. And while I agree that Porter cannot beat AC in those aspects, it has to be said that not everyone will get to AC and those who do, not everyone is guaranteed to achieve the highest levels of those factors you listed. All while dealing with similar challenges and issues that they are trying to escape from (flat pay, low seniority) on a much bigger playing field.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that this all started as a regular, annual salary benchmark with an update to the FOAG to address the concerns of the pilot group as laid out in the survey. Between the roll-out delays, the not-quite-clear summary of changes, the heated discussions in the chatrooms, the missed opportunity to course-correct at the roadshows along with the underlying ALPA drive has pushed the emotional response to an all-time high. Dial back the rhetoric, read what is actually being proposed, apply the numbers that have been provided to what your career path and goals are and then make an informed decision.

This is the problem. We have been promised GOOD things are coming since about August AFTER a year (at that point) of constant concessions. They FOAG committee consistently said this was bench mark like no other. Thats fantastic, however this could have been released in Oct, shortly after the AC TA.

Fact is, it continued on as the ALPA folks did there first all pilot call and things got real for the company. The pressure was on, so the benchmark was delayed and we ended up with what is literally a guideline to try and stop ALPA. Lets replicate what ALPA is, while still not being legal.

As for the above, I did READ what was proposed and my gawd did I have alot of questions, which lead to the committee and the company openly saying "Ummm, Uhhhhh, we need to take that back". Sorry but our own President praised how "quick they got this together, while our competitors took 2 years". Know what the competitors don't have? Many article's going back for discussion as they rushed out this POS.

As for what else was written. The ALPA group has done nothing but show they want to be collaborative, and unified. This benchmark is 100% reminiscent of ACPA and creates nothing but division. ONLY the top 10% of the MSL gets to bid accurately in bid round one, then they are going to pull training pairings for trainers to bid out of seniority, then everyone else will get to bid with a bid window of THREE DAYS. All this leads to Great unification and collaboration. Also, did I mention everyone on the FOAG is quite senior or a trainer.

Anyway, the Porter Pilots seem to be onto what the FOAG truly is and ALPA cannot come quick enough.

Just a side note on the bold copied text from above: FOAG reps are voted in, so vote for someone junior or put yourself up for candidacy.

I do however agree with some of your points. It is leaned towards people with seniority, and the company certainly know what they are doing. Having resources may help In Future negotiations but it’s not gonna be as green on the other side as you may hope.

[flyinhigh]

Just a side note on the bold copied text from above: FOAG reps are voted in, so vote for someone junior or put yourself up for candidacy.

Time of vote, one individual was JUNIOR. No one individual could have foresaw this individual being a trainer/ACP ALSO join the management ranks while representing the pilot group in negotiations.

The senior lads are great guys that I voted for and NEVER thought that they would sell us out.

[cdnavater]

Just wondering, I went back to see when the vote was supposed to be but couldn’t(gave up after two pages), which version was voted in and what are the Cole’s notes of the new rules?
Thanks

[C-GGGQ]

Voting currently open

[AVAnalyst195]

How long will voting stay open?

[AVAnalyst195]

Open Source Wage Analysis

Since we do not have ALPA reps watching out for us I took the past few days to do my own math on the new E2 scales.

Raw wage scales are easy to compare but ALPA has added so much hidden value in pilots’ favour through pensions (AC) and cash bonuses (WS) that the picture is not complete without including those things in the comparison.

As I get corrections, I will update it. What the FOAG cannot do for us the community will. It won’t be as good as a trained ALPA analyst but much better than what we have.

Here is what was missing from the raw scales:
1. PD gives a 5 - 9% RRSP match
2. AC gives a 6 - 10.5% pension
3. WS gives a 10% savings plan PLUS an $8 / hour bonus to FOs and $11 / hour bonus to captains
4. F8 gives a 3 - 6% pension

I will post a summary shortly.

[AVAnalyst195]

Here is my summary.


Once I include all the “goodies” ALPA has negotiated elsewhere, WS Year 1 FOs are making 10% more on a two year old contract! And, AC Captains Year 1 captains are making 25% more. I’m open to correction but someone from FOAG has to help make it make sense if I am right.

I don’t have the sophistication to add the benefit of trip and duty rigs to my math. Perhaps someone else can.

IMG_0266.png (46.7 KiB) Viewed 2000 times

Here are the raw wage scales.

IMG_0265.png (43.85 KiB) Viewed 2000 times

[flyinhigh]

How long will voting stay open?

Because they delayed the vote to come up with more language that created more questions, it closes on the 24th.