Who Funds Medevac flights?

[rookiepilot]

I’m curious about something, in a climate of ever increasing deficits and taxes.

If I need an ambulance the 10 blocks to my nearest hospital, I get a bill.

If I travel overseas and need medevac, I pay. (Or buy insurance)

Medevacs in Canada — when I surf Flightradar 24, they are everywhere, it seems. Big business.

Who pays? Does it make sense? Why so many? Cause operating twin turboprops and helicopters ain’t cheap.

Now disclosure. I am strongly in favour of user fees in Canada — for each doctor visit, more for a specialist, and even more for an ER visit, and hospital stays. User fees for prescriptions (higher)

Motivate people to take care of their own health.

Use a government service, get a bill, ie, Toll roads, raise parking fees, privatize many service deliveries, cut taxes. For starters. Would fix the budget.

[fish4life]

Government pays for it. The similarity would be if you went to the hospital in a small town and they admitted you then realized they can’t treat you due to a lack of services then you would be transferred to the big city hospital by ambulance and you don’t pay for that ride as it’s covered by the government.

[rookiepilot]

Government pays for it. The similarity would be if you went to the hospital in a small town and they admitted you then realized they can’t treat you due to a lack of services then you would be transferred to the big city hospital by ambulance and you don’t pay for that ride as it’s covered by the government.

Government = so I pay for it.

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

The second part of that question— as a whole. Why do we expect others to ever subsidize our life choices?

[Dias]

The treaty from 200 years ago guarantees turbine powered aircraft make regular deliveries of junk food, diesel, and 3AM medevacs.

[helicopterray]

Government pays for it. The similarity would be if you went to the hospital in a small town and they admitted you then realized they can’t treat you due to a lack of services then you would be transferred to the big city hospital by ambulance and you don’t pay for that ride as it’s covered by the government.

Government = so I pay for it.

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

The second part of that question— as a whole. Why do we expect others to ever subsidize our life choices?

Not all Canadians live in big cities. Not all can afford to live in big cities.
Our farmers couldn't live and grow food in the cities even if they wanted to. People who work in the resource industries don't do so in the big cities.
But they all pay taxes so they can be looked after if they have a medical issue.
Subsidize life choices? What sort of nonsense talk is this. We all pool our resources to build roads so everyone can drive across the country, have access to electricity and drinking water. This doctrine of 'subsidizing' leads to private schools and private healthcare only. We can see how well that works in the US. No thanks.

[rookiepilot]

Doesn’t answer the question.

Why?

[JustaCanadian]

I guess not enough Canadians think like you. Many Canadians think all these services are free, and without hesitation would agree to more socialized services.

[rookiepilot]

I guess not enough Canadians think like you. Many Canadians think all these services are free, and without hesitation would agree to more socialized services.

And they don’t mind 12 hour waits in ER to see a doctor. And the odd death.

I’m not advocating paying the whole cost aka the USA.

Anything free it’s been proven is overused.

What is the problem with user fees to offset a small part of the cost for these services.

I think it’s great NYC put a congestion fee in. Bam traffic disappeared. Toronto should do the same.

[2112]

Government pays for it. The similarity would be if you went to the hospital in a small town and they admitted you then realized they can’t treat you due to a lack of services then you would be transferred to the big city hospital by ambulance and you don’t pay for that ride as it’s covered by the government.

Government = so I pay for it.

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

The second part of that question— as a whole. Why do we expect others to ever subsidize our life choices?

So a 5 year old with cancer in Northern Ontario shouldn't have access to the same quality of treatment kids in the south do? Honestly dude shut the @#$! up, I pray you never need a Medevac. Just be happy they are there.

[rookiepilot]

Government pays for it. The similarity would be if you went to the hospital in a small town and they admitted you then realized they can’t treat you due to a lack of services then you would be transferred to the big city hospital by ambulance and you don’t pay for that ride as it’s covered by the government.

Government = so I pay for it.

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

The second part of that question— as a whole. Why do we expect others to ever subsidize our life choices?

So a 5 year old with cancer in Northern Ontario shouldn't have access to the same quality of treatment kids in the south do? Honestly dude shut the @#$! up, I pray you never need a Medevac. Just be happy they are there.

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I suspect very, very few. And I’m pretty familiar with the subject matter.

But fine, don’t calmly discuss an issue.

Personal attacks are fine in Canada whenever anyone questions people getting their jobs off the public purse.

[lownslow]

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I did lower priority patient transfer for eleven years. I didn’t see a lot of kids with cancer but I saw plenty of emergency bypasses, high speed organ transfer, critical neonates, people who were in some awful accidents and generally patients who needed a level of care only available somewhere else. Flew plenty of healthy people home too, usually on what would be an otherwise empty leg home or to go pick up a different patient. Some seemed like frivolous trips but it’s not my job to diagnose and frankly those ones were probably more memorable than they were frequent and that’s why they stand out in my mind.

[boeingboy]

Ambulance and airvac fees are capped. You will still get a bill for it, if you have a vaild care card and are covered by MSP. Those without that are charged the full costs.

Ground and air are capped at $80. If you call for an ambulance and then don't need it $50

For those out of coverage the fees are:
$848 flat fee for ground service
$4,394 per hour for helicopter
$11 per statute mile for airplane ($6.94 per kilometre)

[2112]

Government = so I pay for it.

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

The second part of that question— as a whole. Why do we expect others to ever subsidize our life choices?

So a 5 year old with cancer in Northern Ontario shouldn't have access to the same quality of treatment kids in the south do? Honestly dude shut the @#$! up, I pray you never need a Medevac. Just be happy they are there.

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I suspect very, very few. And I’m pretty familiar with the subject matter.

But fine, don’t calmly discuss an issue.

Personal attacks are fine in Canada whenever anyone questions people getting their jobs off the public purse.

Honestly, not that many, But if you had as much experience with medevacs as you claim to have. You would know that anytime you have the unfortunate opportunity to fly a kid to better care it helps make the system make sense. No one on a Medevac wants to be there Rookie and not every Medevac is the result of people's shitty choices (but you know that and prefer to be obtuse). Everyone is entitled to the same level of care in this country, geographically that means aircraft are a necessity.

[rookiepilot]

So a 5 year old with cancer in Northern Ontario shouldn't have access to the same quality of treatment kids in the south do? Honestly dude shut the @#$! up, I pray you never need a Medevac. Just be happy they are there.

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I suspect very, very few. And I’m pretty familiar with the subject matter.

But fine, don’t calmly discuss an issue.

Personal attacks are fine in Canada whenever anyone questions people getting their jobs off the public purse.

Honestly, not that many, But if you had as much experience with medevacs as you claim to have. You would know that anytime you have the unfortunate opportunity to fly a kid to better care it helps make the system make sense. No one on a Medevac wants to be there Rookie and not every Medevac is the result of people's shitty choices (but you know that and prefer to be obtuse). Everyone is entitled to the same level of care in this country, geographically that means aircraft are a necessity.

I have zero experience with medevacs or any other form of commercial flying.

I have had a lot of experience with children’s cancer, and our medical system.

So you using it as an attempt to score cheap point's in a debate with me and allude that it is a dominant use of medevacs doesn’t fly with me. Actually its pretty low, TBH.

[scdriver]

The problem with arguing for a user fee for a medevac is it fundamentally means everyone in Canada is not guaranteed the same level of care, at least not at the same cost. If I need an ambulance to the hospital where I live and it costs let’s say $200 on your model, that’s one thing. But if a guy in Iqaluit needs the same level of care he has to pay what, 1k? 2k? 10k? If both of those situations are accidental injuries then you can’t argue it’s due to your own shitty health choices. And in this massive country it can’t possibly be argued that it’s your own fault for living too far away from higher levels of care.

If people need to buy insurance to cover such a situation then I could easily see that being cost prohibitive for a lot of the population too.

Here’s a question: if you think as a taxpayer you are subsidizing people’s lifestyles in smaller towns by having government pay for medevacs, would you also think you are doing so if they spent money building healthcare facilities closer to those communities? I bet that would cost a lot more than flying folks out who need it.

[7ECA]

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I suspect very, very few. And I’m pretty familiar with the subject matter.

But fine, don’t calmly discuss an issue.

Personal attacks are fine in Canada whenever anyone questions people getting their jobs off the public purse.

That would generally be considered an IFT - Inter-Facility Transfer. There are numerous reasons why they occur, level of care required is not available at a rural facility or more specialty/specialized care is required that is only available at hospital XYZ, etc.

It doesn't matter which Province or Territory is occurs in there are just times when it would be, frankly, inhumane to expect a patient to have to ride in an ambulance for 4, 6, 8, 10, 12+ hours to go from point A to B to receive treatment. Not to mention, with a shortage of ambulances (and paramedics) does it make sense to tie up a unit on a transfer that will take HOURS, when you can use an aeroplane or rotorcraft and have the transfer done in a much shorter timeframe? Depending on the type of patient or their care needs, it can take hours just to prep them for transport - without any consideration of the distance/time for the actual movement between facilities, and then hours to get them handed over to the next facility.

Realistically, the number of high acuity or trauma patients transported by "medevacs" is lower than most people realize. Sure the STARS or BCEHS Sikorsky landing on a highway for a multi-vehicle MVA with massive traumatic injuries tends to make the news, but I'd argue the majority of "medevacs" are transfers.

Also, some portion of these transfers have nothing to do with care, they can be repatriation flights as well. Patient A required care at hospital B that wasn't available in their locality, and was transferred by air. Now that patient A is well, or no longer requires higher level care, they are repatriated back home. The same goes for palliative or hospice patients in many cases, in which they are going to die and wish to do so surrounded by family rather than a significant distance away.

Pulling the paediatric cancer card is low, regardless of your lived experience. Remember stats show that 1 in 2 people will experience cancer in their lifetime and it's extremely rare to not know someone who has been affected by it...

[co-joe]

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I suspect very, very few. And I’m pretty familiar with the subject matter.

But fine, don’t calmly discuss an issue.

Personal attacks are fine in Canada whenever anyone questions people getting their jobs off the public purse.

Very few, mostly CT, MRI, query MI or CVA, mostly ambulatory, and quite a few sore tummies. They don't get priority either, somebody has to wait in line at emerg for hours and they get triaged.

[altiplano]

Air Medevac services are a financial decision for the government. It's cheaper to centralize the medical infrastructure and bring patients to it.

The centralized population enjoys a higher amount of service and access as a result, and the everyone else gets brought in as needed.

[rookiepilot]

How many medevacs are as a result of kids with cancer?

I suspect very, very few. And I’m pretty familiar with the subject matter.

But fine, don’t calmly discuss an issue.

Personal attacks are fine in Canada whenever anyone questions people getting their jobs off the public purse.

That would generally be considered an IFT - Inter-Facility Transfer. There are numerous reasons why they occur, level of care required is not available at a rural facility or more specialty/specialized care is required that is only available at hospital XYZ, etc.

It doesn't matter which Province or Territory is occurs in there are just times when it would be, frankly, inhumane to expect a patient to have to ride in an ambulance for 4, 6, 8, 10, 12+ hours to go from point A to B to receive treatment. Not to mention, with a shortage of ambulances (and paramedics) does it make sense to tie up a unit on a transfer that will take HOURS, when you can use an aeroplane or rotorcraft and have the transfer done in a much shorter timeframe? Depending on the type of patient or their care needs, it can take hours just to prep them for transport - without any consideration of the distance/time for the actual movement between facilities, and then hours to get them handed over to the next facility.

Realistically, the number of high acuity or trauma patients transported by "medevacs" is lower than most people realize. Sure the STARS or BCEHS Sikorsky landing on a highway for a multi-vehicle MVA with massive traumatic injuries tends to make the news, but I'd argue the majority of "medevacs" are transfers.

Also, some portion of these transfers have nothing to do with care, they can be repatriation flights as well. Patient A required care at hospital B that wasn't available in their locality, and was transferred by air. Now that patient A is well, or no longer requires higher level care, they are repatriated back home. The same goes for palliative or hospice patients in many cases, in which they are going to die and wish to do so surrounded by family rather than a significant distance away.

Pulling the paediatric cancer card is low, regardless of your lived experience. Remember stats show that 1 in 2 people will experience cancer in their lifetime and it's extremely rare to not know someone who has been affected by it...

Ok. Good answer.

[Old fella]

.

[Donald]

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

Sounds like someone is advocating for 15 minute cities.

[cdnavater]

If I choose to live in a small town, far from services, why should I expect others to subsidize my life choices?

Sounds like someone is advocating for 15 minute cities.

All you cuckoo birds must visit the same sites, urban planning taking into account proximity to resources is not a bad thing!

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/th ... -1.6817087

“The concept of 15-minute cities — where a person's daily needs in a city are accessible within a 15-minute walk, bike or transit ride from their home — is a few years old. It's been picked up by many cities to guide urban planning and design. But in recent months, the 15-minute city idea has also been seized on by people who fear it's an elaborate conspiracy to limit individual freedoms, mobility, and to create barricaded sectors to keep them trapped.

In this episode, Tiffany Hsu, a reporter who covers disinformation for the New York Times, breaks down the actual idea, where it came from, and how it got twisted into a dystopian conspiracy”

As for Rookie’s original question, in Manitoba where I did medevacs for many years, the problem is that the reserves of which there are many, don’t have road access and only have a nursing station that is rarely if ever staffed with a doctor. Even when a doctor is there, the tools available for diagnosis are limited, so many patients are transferred to one of two cities that have proper hospitals, Thompson and Winnipeg.
This was explained to me as the right to equal care and is why the government pays for it and of course with any “program” there will be abuse, I’ve seen many, many examples of the abuse you can find, clear examples of them faking illness to get a free ride to the city to go “shopping” also known as bar hopping.
They end up in the city and get discharged from hospital fairly quickly, then promptly get themselves lost until they run out of money, then find their way to northern affairs to get a flight home.
There are many companies in Manitoba that have medevac divisions and Perimeter Airlines would not be a success without the repatriation of the medical passengers, I’d say 80% of the people that travel on their flights are government paid, the other 20 is government employees and workers!
The system has been broken for a very long time, over 30 years at least, not sure if it can ever be fixed.
Even if you could build a proper facility there, how would you staff it, when the locals get drunk and shoot them up for fun!

[‘Bob’]

We all do as benefits a developed country that doesn't force people to enter personal bankruptcy because of health problems like our friends south of the border.

And nearly all MedEvac flights have direct user fees in the range of $80 to $300 and are all vetted and triaged by the applicable provincial health authority.

There is also rationalization and cost recovery by using resources already in place to transport less than acute patients.

You might want to think where most of our resources come from, where most of our land-based transportation passes through, where most of our food is grown, and where tourism happens before you bash rural dwellers and their living choices. In terms of actual work done and positive contributions to society they are the real hard workers of this nation.

Not to mention the people who's land was stolen that gives us absolutely unheard of peace and prosperity on the backs of their health issues and intergenerational trauma. MedEvac flights.. even frivolous ones... are a such a tiny price to pay.

Your child go to an oncology centre in Canada or elsewhere? If in Canada.. sorry even if you pay a lot of taxes there's no way that you paid enough to buy or build one on your own without the collective help of the Canadian taxpayer. What do you think a rural taxpayer would think of your diatribe?

If you were able to get treatment out of country, congratulations, you're one of the few people able to do so... and it was likely on the back of thousands of dead people through Deny Defend Depose.

And why are you choosing this particular windmill to tilt against? Why not any number of direct corporate welfare recipients who do absolutely nothing to help the collective welfare of Canadians? They don't even provide stable and well paying jobs as part of the very stale bait and switch of supply side economics.

[rookiepilot]

I see asking questions about the sustainability of our health system only invites vicious personal attacks that in no way even attempt to address the 8, 12 to 16 hour waits routinely in ER’s, so now ignoring this thread.

I ask far less aggressive questions on other threads, the same people cry to the mods instantly.

The irony is something else.

[Stratopaused]

I once performed a transfer for a walk-on patient to fly him down south for a scan, and then waited around to fly him home again. It seemed like a massive waste of resources, but while I was chatting with the medics they said that the alternative was to put him on a sched flight, put him up in a hotel after the appointment, fly him home the next day on another sched flight, and pay for all his meals in the meantime. It was actually cheaper to just send a King Air than to pay all the little costs that add up when it comes to travel to somewhere so remote. They also pointed out that getting a scan done proactively and potentially finding a disease in its early stages would make it much easier to treat, and cost significantly less than in a later stage with a potential ICU stay and palliative care. That's also the main concern with paying user fees: charging for medical care is a deterrent that prevents patients from seeing doctors for minor issues that can become bigger, more expensive problems. A small cut can become an infection. An untreated broken toe can become an ER visit when it turns gangrenous. A strange mole can become melanoma if it doesn't get biopsied and removed. The US medical system has a major issue with low-income people using the ER as their primary method of treatment because they can't afford a family doctor or a walk-in clinic, and it substantially adds to costs that get spread to other customers...er, patients...who subsidize those ER visits either directly or through higher insurance premiums.

I see asking questions about the sustainability of our health system only invites vicious personal attacks that in no way even attempt to address the 8, 12 to 16 hour waits routinely in ER’s, so now ignoring this thread.

I didn't realize medevac flights were depleting resources from ERs. Are you suggesting that there are staff on those flights who could otherwise be working in hospitals but have been pulled from their positions? Or are you implying that if we reallocated funding and offered doctors a couple of bucks more per hour to work in the ER that they would leave their practices?

I found some very useful resources that show the current live emergency and urgent care wait times, and I'm shocked to say that rookie has grossly exaggerated his claims in order to make an argument for depriving others of medical care. Here is the GTA: https://howlongwilliwait.com/ Metro Vancouver: https://www.edwaittimes.ca/ Alberta: https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/la ... ?locale=en As of the time of me posting this, the GTA ranges from 43 minutes to 5 hours, with the vast majority being under 3 hours, and a third of them being under 2. Metro Vancouver ranges from 47 minutes to 6 hours, with the average being around 3. Calgary ranges from 45 minutes to 3 hours, and Edmonton is 2 to 3 hours. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good emotional rant. What is it that conservatives always say about feelings?