It’s Time - Back on track

[cjp]

WEN and WJA, were they ever under the same work rules with WJPA? They certified at separate times with separate card drives and separate organizing committees.

e2 and q400, are they both under the same FOAG? My understanding is it's all under the same organizing committee.

My point is that I don't see a lot of comparison between the WJ situation and Porter situation. Yes, common employer is important, and needs to be solidified. But it's a tall stretch to say they're currently separate. More of a ACA/ROU arrangement. Same pilot group, different AOCs.

Exactly, not much of a comparison. New benchmark I think will be closer to a TA, providing pilots opportunity to vote on what they want; salary, lifestyle and fixed operational elements. I think we're entering a new era and transitioning away from the older style of the FOAG.

This voting style was a part of FOAGs in the past. Think its explained in the preamble of 14 if you can find a copy of it. Disappeared when BC wrote his piece.

Not that it was ever really used. I have been able to vote on 1 thing in my time here at Porter: allow pilots with jet experience to transfer to the E2 out of seniority order because there were only 6 of them. It didnt pass because not enough people voted

Fingers crossed they drop it this week. Too much secrecy.

[braaap Braap]

Fingers crossed they drop it this week. Too much secrecy.

Need to get a move on. Attrition number rumours Im hearing are concerning. Combine that with growing frustration on how long this would take. Definitely flown with a few who got fed up and hit submit on their applications.

[flyinhigh]

Fingers crossed they drop it this week. Too much secrecy.

Annnnd nope, delay till Christmas. Pretty crazy how the FOAG works here. Have a page in the policy manual that states how benchmarks go, and its not followed. Dangle the carrot from August to now that good stuff is coming, and still nothing.

ALPA cannot come quick enough.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Fingers crossed they drop it this week. Too much secrecy.

Annnnd nope, delay till Christmas. Pretty crazy how the FOAG works here. Have a page in the policy manual that states how benchmarks go, and its not followed. Dangle the carrot from August to now that good stuff is coming, and still nothing.

ALPA cannot come quick enough.

What’s the reference for the benchmarking in the FOAG?

If you’re referencing 4.2.1.2 then it clearly says “December”
There is no specific date in the FOAG, just a month.

“Communication of final draft : December”

Not sure how they haven’t followed that since we still are in December

I guess it does say that review of changes should be done October 18 to November 15th.

But given the potential major changes, I can wait another week or two.

It does say slight variations could occur during the year where the FOAG is slated for revision. Which I guess is what’s happening.

Besides, none of this will be effective before March anyway

[goingnowherefast]

It's been a month. FOAG 2025 is out. Judging by the other thread, it doesn't seem like a warm reception. How's the temperature on the line?

[Pratt X 3]

It's been a month. FOAG 2025 is out. Judging by the other thread, it doesn't seem like a warm reception. How's the temperature on the line?

As you can see from the other thread, in the virtual world (AvCanada, WhatsApp), the temperature is hitting the red line and threatening to blow up.
In the real world, temperature seems normal. Not a lot of talk about it. A few questions or comments but nothing like the virtual stuff.

In fact, the townhall meetings were pretty tame. A few heated comments or loaded questions but those were coming from the heated discussions happening on the keyboard battlefield. It could have gone smoother if the material sent out and presented had been clearer and less open to interpretation. Plus having the most maligned manager heading up the meetings probably didn’t help. The most emotional point was the discussion regarding maternity uniform availability.

As I tried to point out in the other thread, along with the Duke on this one, this was an annual salary benchmark that was paired with the cleaning up and clarification of the FOAG that somehow got spun out of control. God forbid what an actual contract negotiation will bring but that bridge will need to be as flame retardant as possible for when it is time to cross it.

[flyinhigh]

In fact, the townhall meetings were pretty tame. A few heated comments or loaded questions but those were coming from the heated discussions happening on the keyboard battlefield. It could have gone smoother if the material sent out and presented had been clearer and less open to interpretation. Plus having the most maligned manager heading up the meetings probably didn’t help. The most emotional point was the discussion regarding maternity uniform availability.

When was that brought up?

I'd say the most emotional point was when numerous pilots called out the FOAG/Company for wrecking morale, or the point where a pilot asked pointedly whether they were concerned that this benchmark has missed the mark with ALPA knocking on the door, or the constant questions into re-route which even the committee and company were getting mixed up.

Also, I'd say that the questions were coming due to the huge holes in the agreement (think thats what they called it to try and make it sound like a contract), numerous pilots asked for clarification and numerous pilots got responses of, Uhhhh, Ummmm, Ahhhhh, we'll get back to you.

[goingnowherefast]

...a pilot asked pointedly whether they were concerned that this benchmark has missed the mark with ALPA knocking on the door...

Hahaha, that's gold. What was the answer?

Good to see Porter pilots are asking tough questions. ALPA or no ALPA, good things don't come to those who roll over and take it. Certainly professionally supported negotiations are better, but both require pilot engagement and involvement. ALPA will do well at Porter if the pilots are engaged and involved.

[flyinhigh]

Hahaha, that's gold. What was the answer?

Again, was not on the call when it was asked, but from 3rd hand info it was a long spew about how one FOAG rep spent 2K of his own money with a lawyer who said our policy document would be solidified provided it had a signature and date on it. hahaha I really wish I was there.

Guess they haven't heard of the WJPA and insist on repeating history.

Clearly, our FOAG or what ever the new name it will be called is looking out for the company and based on the abysmal benchmark looking out for themselves.

[Pratt X 3]

Clearly, our FOAG or what ever the new name it will be called is looking out for the company and based on the abysmal benchmark looking out for themselves.

None of the options given to rename the FOAG document (Flight Ops Admin Guide) and committee (Flight Ops Admin Group) stand out for me. They need not only reflect the binding nature of the policies and the authority of the Pilot Representatives but also represent those who will be affected by them. I've been workshopping a few ideas to write in during the vote but having a hard time getting the acronyms to work. Open to suggestions!

For the document:

FOMO - Flight Ops Manual of Obedience?
FAFO - Fake Agreement for Flight Ops?
FUBAR - Frequently Used Book of Arbitrary Rules?

But for the committee, it's got to be:

FU FO - self-explanatory

[braaap Braap]

Clearly, our FOAG or what ever the new name it will be called is looking out for the company and based on the abysmal benchmark looking out for themselves.

None of the options given to rename the FOAG document (Flight Ops Admin Guide) and committee (Flight Ops Admin Group) stand out for me. They need not only reflect the binding nature of the policies and the authority of the Pilot Representatives but also represent those who will be affected by them. I've been workshopping a few ideas to write in during the vote but having a hard time getting the acronyms to work. Open to suggestions!

For the document:

FOMO - Flight Ops Manual of Obedience?
FAFO - Fake Agreement for Flight Ops?
FUBAR - Frequently Used Book of Arbitrary Rules?

But for the committee, it's got to be:

FU FO - self-explanatory

I wish I could vote for FUBAR. I find it hilarious the efforts they're going to to imitate a union. The Porter Pilots for Change crew should be stoked knowing they have the company/FOAG scrambling to undercut their drive.

[8895]

Clearly, our FOAG or what ever the new name it will be called is looking out for the company and based on the abysmal benchmark looking out for themselves.

None of the options given to rename the FOAG document (Flight Ops Admin Guide) and committee (Flight Ops Admin Group) stand out for me. They need not only reflect the binding nature of the policies and the authority of the Pilot Representatives but also represent those who will be affected by them. I've been workshopping a few ideas to write in during the vote but having a hard time getting the acronyms to work. Open to suggestions!

For the document:

FOMO - Flight Ops Manual of Obedience?
FAFO - Fake Agreement for Flight Ops?
FUBAR - Frequently Used Book of Arbitrary Rules?

But for the committee, it's got to be:

FU FO - self-explanatory

I wish I could vote for FUBAR. I find it hilarious the efforts they're going to to imitate a union. The Porter Pilots for Change crew should be stoked knowing they have the company/FOAG scrambling to undercut their drive.

More like accelerate the union drive lol

[CaptDukeNukem]

Clearly, our FOAG or what ever the new name it will be called is looking out for the company and based on the abysmal benchmark looking out for themselves.

None of the options given to rename the FOAG document (Flight Ops Admin Guide) and committee (Flight Ops Admin Group) stand out for me. They need not only reflect the binding nature of the policies and the authority of the Pilot Representatives but also represent those who will be affected by them. I've been workshopping a few ideas to write in during the vote but having a hard time getting the acronyms to work. Open to suggestions!

For the document:

FOMO - Flight Ops Manual of Obedience?
FAFO - Fake Agreement for Flight Ops?
FUBAR - Frequently Used Book of Arbitrary Rules?

But for the committee, it's got to be:

FU FO - self-explanatory

I wish I could vote for FUBAR. I find it hilarious the efforts they're going to to imitate a union. The Porter Pilots for Change crew should be stoked knowing they have the company/FOAG scrambling to undercut their drive.

Congrats on getting the E2

[flyinhigh]

poe.alpa.org

Bout time.

[goingnowherefast]

Good for them! Sign your card and get this done as fast as possible.

[Di83]

Good for them! Sign your card and get this done as fast as possible.

No, thank you.

[8895]

Good for them! Sign your card and get this done as fast as possible.

No, thank you.

Yes, thank you.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I'm glad that we all get the opportunity to cast our vote by either signing a card or not signing one.

[rudder]

I'm glad that we all get the opportunity to cast our vote by either signing a card or not signing one.

ALPA won’t pursue a proper representation ballot (supervised by the CIRB) without at least 70% subscription to ALPA representation. Unionization does not work @50%+1 as ALPA is a member represented and member driven bargaining agent.

A card drive is the perfect mechanism to gauge support. In point of fact, if ALPA can get 80%+ in the card drive they would likely apply to the CIRB for direct certification.

Ultimately this is up to the Porter pilots to decide. Either way, there will be some disappointed constituents. ALPA representation is about having a singular agenda for the group, not dozens of individual agendas that may or may not thrive in a unionized environment.

[hithere]

The benefits of unionization are many but for the uninitiated, it might not be obvious until the group experiences pain/harm as a result of an economic downturn etc. it’s entirely possible that as a result of the imbecile Trump’s trade war, travel to the USA from Canada will tank and Porter’s aggressive expansion may suffer. So the timing may be perfect

[yanbra]

The benefits of unionization are many but for the uninitiated, it might not be obvious until the group experiences pain/harm as a result of an economic downturn etc. it’s entirely possible that as a result of the imbecile Trump’s trade war, travel to the USA from Canada will tank and Porter’s aggressive expansion may suffer. So the timing may be perfect

Keep in mind that a union doesn't protect you against an economic downturn etc. A union does not run a company.
If a company decides to lay off employees, it will, union or no.

[hithere]

The benefits of unionization are many but for the uninitiated, it might not be obvious until the group experiences pain/harm as a result of an economic downturn etc. it’s entirely possible that as a result of the imbecile Trump’s trade war, travel to the USA from Canada will tank and Porter’s aggressive expansion may suffer. So the timing may be perfect

Keep in mind that a union doesn't protect you against an economic downturn etc. A union does not run a company.
If a company decides to lay off employees, it will, union or no.

Yes I’m well aware, however it will have provisions where people MUST be laid off via reverse seniority, regardless of aircraft type, and various other provisions

[gowest]

Hello,

Any news about ALPA? is this thing still going on ? it has been over 7 months now.
Sold enough cards?
cheers

[goingnowherefast]

It's been 4 months. But yeah, call/email, whatever. Find a organizer, get your card in.

Especially with US politics and the direction the economy is headed, you'll want to get an actual contract and strong representation NOW! The whole industry has heard about the QOL concessions being forced (but hidden by mild raises) during a pilot shortage. I'm afraid what's gonna happen to you folks when the economy stagnantes and transborder flying continues slowing.

[aviran9111]

Union is bad, really bad.
They can easily through you under the bus.
During and after the plandemic we saw all time high claim against unions for improper representation that were found justified. Too many went in bed with the employers without attempting to fight it.

I personally, on a different matter, had a union refuse to represent me on an unpaid work case because I quit, even though it took place weeks before the resignation, and since I was unionized, I couldn't go after the employer myself. You pay those useless f and when you need them - they through you under the bus.

I 100% support Right to Work legislation. Just see how much US pilots makes under such legislation.