YYZ RJ landing Accident

[beaverpuq]

Does the AOA seem higher over the threshold then flatten as it goes past the hanger?

[Dry Guy]

He's crashing out

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6591491/

[PA32pilot]

My take from this is how well the RJs structure survived this incident.

[Dry Guy]

My take from this is how well the RJs structure survived this incident.

No kidding! They built those things tough.

[‘Bob’]

It’s the way it crashed. A fuselage just rolling or sliding it doesn’t have very much bending or compression force applied to it.

The DCA CRJ, on the other hand. ….

[55+]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

[rookiepilot]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

Yet. 3 in critical condition at last report.

I feel for them, and other pax emotionally scarred by being violently turned upside down in an aircraft.

Whether I feel as much for the Cap and Fo will depend on the substance of the TSB’s report.

[pelmet]

I'm gonna say this once. Sexist or racist content will be removed and the poster will be dealt with accordingly.

I'm pretty sick of the presumption and negativity and I can hear the dogwhistles too. I've already given out vacations (plural) and I'd really rather not do that, it's not a particularly nice way to start the day.

As a sidenote, Diversity, equity and inclusion policies were never created to let unqualified brown people or women get jobs ahead of qualified white men. Did you know? It's meant to ensure that a qualified brown person and/or woman won't be passed over in order to hire an unqualfied white man. True story, feel free to look it up.

Most people understand that at a fundemental level and don't have an issue with the idea. However, to the small yet vocal minority who don't get it, please ask yourself which parts you are against. Is it the diversity part you have an issue with? Or perhaps the equity part? Or maybe the inclusion part? Then ask yourself why that is. No need to post the answer on this particular topic, it's meant for the accident.

It is amazing the excuse-making that people come up with. There are are all kind of Asians(and terrible white people) who have not gotten accepted into universities even though they had higher marks than the ones who did get in with lower marks. What made them more qualified when it was based on exam scores. You know exactly what made them more qualified.

TBH, In assumed that you were recently banning people who brought the DEI subject up for legitimate reasons of not bringing politics into two recent accident threads for the simple reason that there was no current factual information to back it up as having any involvement. Now I realize different and see that you are actuall part of this dangerous and bigoted problem. You are not the first mod to use political biases as a tool on a forum and certainly won’t be the last. It is unfortunate for your credibility that you didn’t stick with an evidence-based approach that I initially assumed about you. I suggest a self-ban with another mod taking over to delete any DEI talk related to these accidents until such time as any evidence presents itself.

[pelmet]

My take from this is how well the RJs structure survived this incident.

No kidding! They built those things tough.

I am not so sure right now about how tough it really is. I have seen some very hard landings on videos over the years and this one did not look particularly bad. Perhaps there is more to it such as touching hard on one gear with rolling momentum but I am surprised to see this outcome.

[BTD]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

Yet. 3 in critical condition at last report.

I feel for them, and other pax emotionally scarred by being violently turned upside down in an aircraft.

Whether I feel as much for the Cap and Fo will depend on the substance of the TSB’s report.

I highly doubt they set out that morning to crash an airplane. You can still have empathy for those who made errors that led to bad outcomes. Doesn’t absolve their responsibility. But I certainly feel for them, unless it turns out to be gross negligence.

[TCAS II]

TSB update

https://youtu.be/FbDDBXe1TFg?si=SwQvxloX4IHYJT5r

[rookiepilot]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

Yet. 3 in critical condition at last report.

I feel for them, and other pax emotionally scarred by being violently turned upside down in an aircraft.

Whether I feel as much for the Cap and Fo will depend on the substance of the TSB’s report.

I highly doubt they set out that morning to crash an airplane. You can still have empathy for those who made errors that led to bad outcomes. Doesn’t absolve their responsibility. But I certainly feel for them, unless it turns out to be gross negligence.

Agreed — note I said “as much” — especially compared to those in critical condition.

[tsgarp]

My take from this is how well the RJs structure survived this incident.

No kidding! They built those things tough.

I am not so sure right now about how tough it really is. I have seen some very hard landings on videos over the years and this one did not look particularly bad. Perhaps there is more to it such as touching hard on one gear with rolling momentum but I am surprised to see this outcome.

I was thinking the same thing.

[55+]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

Yet. 3 in critical condition at last report.

I feel for them, and other pax emotionally scarred by being violently turned upside down in an aircraft.

Whether I feel as much for the Cap and Fo will depend on the substance of the TSB’s report.

I highly doubt they set out that morning to crash an airplane. You can still have empathy for those who made errors that led to bad outcomes. Doesn’t absolve their responsibility. But I certainly feel for them, unless it turns out to be gross negligence.

Adding to it all there will be litigation after all it’s aviation and a USA airline, so outside of any professional repercussions the flight crew will no doubt have to contend with that. I imagine the tort lawyers are compiling a passenger list and calls are being made to prospective clients

[digits_]

I'm gonna say this once. Sexist or racist content will be removed and the poster will be dealt with accordingly.

I'm pretty sick of the presumption and negativity and I can hear the dogwhistles too. I've already given out vacations (plural) and I'd really rather not do that, it's not a particularly nice way to start the day.

As a sidenote, Diversity, equity and inclusion policies were never created to let unqualified brown people or women get jobs ahead of qualified white men. Did you know? It's meant to ensure that a qualified brown person and/or woman won't be passed over in order to hire an unqualfied white man. True story, feel free to look it up.

Most people understand that at a fundemental level and don't have an issue with the idea. However, to the small yet vocal minority who don't get it, please ask yourself which parts you are against. Is it the diversity part you have an issue with? Or perhaps the equity part? Or maybe the inclusion part? Then ask yourself why that is. No need to post the answer on this particular topic, it's meant for the accident.

It is amazing the excuse-making that people come up with. There are are all kind of Asians(and terrible white people) who have not gotten accepted into universities even though they had higher marks than the ones who did get in with lower marks. What made them more qualified when it was based on exam scores. You know exactly what made them more qualified.

TBH, In assumed that you were recently banning people who brought the DEI subject up for legitimate reasons of not bringing politics into two recent accident threads for the simple reason that there was no current factual information to back it up as having any involvement. Now I realize different and see that you are actuall part of this dangerous and bigoted problem. You are not the first mod to use political biases as a tool on a forum and certainly won’t be the last. It is unfortunate for your credibility that you didn’t stick with an evidence-based approach that I initially assumed about you. I suggest a self-ban with another mod taking over to delete any DEI talk related to these accidents until such time as any evidence presents itself.

+1

Especially taking into account the political hot topic the DEI stuff is right now. It definitely warrants questions if this was a factor or not.

Personally I doubt it was a significant factor, but if the president of the country the plane and crew were licensed in, openly changes or cancels DEI policies, people should absolutely be allowed to discuss it.

Trying to one sidedly sneak in 'your' (Sulako) DEI definition while then telling people to ignore the topic is quite counterproductive as well.

[Oscar]

Alrighty, talked to my Endeavor buddy a little more at length today. He's been on some of the internal group chats and has a better idea of some interesting info.

The Captain was an experienced sim instructor but only flew the line part-time. The FO was relatively new and had recently required additional sim training for "landing issues". The Captain was on the radios, the FO was flying. Nothing concrete, but just some perspective.

[digits_]

Alrighty, talked to my Endeavor buddy a little more at length today. He's been on some of the internal group chats and has a better idea of some interesting info.

The Captain was an experienced sim instructor but only flew the line part-time. The FO was relatively new and had recently required additional sim training for "landing issues". The Captain was on the radios, the FO was flying. Nothing concrete, but just some perspective.

If that's true I can see a type rating requirement to do X landings in the actual airplane coming. Similar to EASA land.

[Oscar]

Digits

That's partly why the Captain was out flying, to log landings for currency. There's already Part-121 currency regs in place in the US. The FO was a new ATP as well.

[digits_]

Digits

That's partly why the Captain was out flying, to log landings for currency. There's already Part-121 currency regs in place in the US. The FO was a new ATP as well.

But you're doing all your landings with pax. You can get a typerating in a sim, and land an airplane full with paying pax without ever having touched a real plane.

That's what's different in EASA: your typerating requires that you have flown the actual airplane for X landings (unless that changed recently?)

[pdw]

Does the AOA seem higher over the threshold then flatten as it goes past the hanger?

“Mel” mentions the ‘ran out of energy’ … ie maybe (at hangar height behind ac window post of that second/flightdeck video supplied above) ) some ‘negative performance’ (Captndukenkm) where 35kt gusts prevailing at surface from 33deg right (from 270T metar/ on 237T rwy) has right-crabbing / right wing low so the right gear got full/angled weight of an unusually solid X-wind touchdown. The quick / consecutive transfer to the left gear (see that split second left twist on the first rearview video) is evidence of the ‘zip airspeed/energy left’ even for any significant bounce.

Flight recorder data will have to show at which point go-around (or at least where extra power for that landing) would have been been required. We were /watching-for / expecting those 2pm peak winds following that snowstorm (down here in Niagara), was surprised they were even 10kts stronger at YYZ at that same time.

(Edit… 33deg crosswind component from the right, gusting 35kts , the nearest YYZ metar, 12 minutes ahead of this accident)

[Bede]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6591491/

https://youtu.be/bowJBce_0i4?t=20

I would take that article with a grain of salt.

[Bede]

Could the TSB get any more quintessentially Canadian?

[cdnavater]

Does the AOA seem higher over the threshold then flatten as it goes past the hanger?

“Mel” mentions the ‘ran out of energy’ … ie maybe (at hangar height behind ac window post of that second/flightdeck video supplied above) ) some ‘negative performance’ (Captndukenkm) where 37kt gusts prevailing at surface from 43deg right (from 270T metar/ on 237T rwy) has right-crabbing / right wing low so the right gear got full/angled weight of an unusually solid X-wind touchdown. The quick / consecutive transfer to the left gear (see that split second left twist on the first rearview video) is evidence of the ‘zip airspeed/energy left’ even for any significant bounce.

Flight recorder data will have to show at which point go-around (or at least where extra power for that landing) would have been been required. We were /watching-for / expecting those 2pm peak winds following that snowstorm (down here in Niagara), was surprised they were even 10kts stronger at YYZ at that same time.

Your typical gibberish aside, you’re trying to equate landing a regional jet with a c172, the training will focus on making sure thrust is at idle for touchdown to ensure the GLD(ground lift dump) system deploys preventing a bounced landing. So if you are running out of energy at hangar height, the only good option is a go around, the results of adding thrust and a bounce followed by thrust levers back to idle have been proven, it results in the high possibility of the GLD deploying in the air destroying all lift and a very hard landing,
Based on observation of the videos alone, my guess based on experience with this aircraft and close your eyes if you don’t want speculation, they will discover that the hard landing collapsed the gear and the pilot input was full right aileron, which caused the rolling moment required to get inverted. The fact the wing broke off is what allowed this to rolling moment to continue to happen, the questions that need to answered is why the gear collapsed and wing broke off, didn’t appear to be extremely excessive Gs.
I know we have a gate keeper system that alerts maintenance of hard landings among other things, so I do wonder if Endeavour does, as if you leave it up to self reporting, I suspect you would find most would go unreported! My point being I wonder if previous unreported hard landings lead to metal fatigue being unnoticed.

[Rooster69]

I wonder if previous unreported hard landings lead to metal fatigue being unnoticed.


I was thinking that these planes probably get quite a few hard landings. Jazz had one a few years ago in YYZ. I remember seeing the a/c sitting on a high speed exit.
The video of this landing shows very little , if any, flare. Trying not to throw stones but it doesn’t look good for the pilots.

On a different note, kudos to the FAs getting the doors open and everyone out. Must be disorienting opening while upside down. No slides deployed?

[MX-5]

On a different note, kudos to the FAs getting the doors open and everyone out. Must be disorienting opening while upside down. No slides deployed?

Wouldn't they deploy from the floor? which in this case is 'up'?