YYZ RJ landing Accident

[cjp]

Pretty sure RJ's don't have slides.

[mel gibson]

Another point to remember is application of power in a tail mounted engine aircraft like the CRJ will pitch the nose down instead of up with wing mounted engines like a 737.

The nose does appear to go down in the final stages but may have been lowered to gain airspeed, but then the airplane hits the runway hard and sideways putting a crushing sideload on the gear as mentioned.

Attitude plus power equals performance.

It is tough in these conditions, one is tempted to land with power on, to get a smoother landing, but you risk landing long or even going off the end of the runway.
Jet flying can be tricky.

I believe that having new FOs that have scared the sh@t out of themselves up North in turboprops landing on gravel in perpetual crosswinds make excellent pilots.
But we are in a new reality and airlines are going to have to heavily invest in more modern and comprehensive training schemes.

[rookiepilot]

Another point to remember is application of power in a tail mounted engine aircraft like the CRJ will pitch the nose down instead of up with wing mounted engines like a 737.

I for one never knew that. Must make training for a go around interestng.

[Downwash]

For a bit of context
Investigation Report A07O0124

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0124.html

[cdnavater]

On a different note, kudos to the FAs getting the doors open and everyone out. Must be disorienting opening while upside down. No slides deployed?

Wouldn't they deploy from the floor? which in this case is 'up'?

No slides on the RJ

[cdnavater]

For a bit of context
Investigation Report A07O0124

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0124.html

What is the context here?

[7ECA]

For a bit of context
Investigation Report A07O0124

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0124.html

What is the context here?

That a hard landing in a CRJ can result in a gear collapse. A potential parallel being a crosswind landing and a lower time FO at the controls.

The GLD parameters and bounced landings are also an interesting sidebar, not that they necessarily contributed to this accident but there could be a discussion around the system as well.

[55+]

Initial info deleted because the X source posted misleading information concerning the PIC's previous status at Delta Mainline, source itself is a retired airline pilot from Delta. Classical example of what you see/read from people(who should know better) isn't always factual. My bad!

[bobcaygeon]

On a different note, kudos to the FAs getting the doors open and everyone out. Must be disorienting opening while upside down. No slides deployed?

Wouldn't they deploy from the floor? which in this case is 'up'?

No slides on the RJ

Agreed, CRJ 700/900 intentionally sit "nose low" on the ground to reduce the height of the exit above the ground to avoid having slides required.

[bobcaygeon]

For a bit of context
Investigation Report A07O0124

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0124.html

What is the context here?

That a hard landing in a CRJ can result in a gear collapse. A potential parallel being a crosswind landing and a lower time FO at the controls.

The GLD parameters and bounced landings are also an interesting sidebar, not that they necessarily contributed to this accident but there could be a discussion around the system as well.

CRJ100/200 and 700/900 main gear are very different as the 100/200 has the trailing gear carried over from its Challenger heritage, and the 700/900 has a more typical airliner-style gear. I used to grease the 100/200 on but alternating with the 900 made for some less than stellar landings in it.

[cdnavater]

What is the context here?

That a hard landing in a CRJ can result in a gear collapse. A potential parallel being a crosswind landing and a lower time FO at the controls.

The GLD parameters and bounced landings are also an interesting sidebar, not that they necessarily contributed to this accident but there could be a discussion around the system as well.

CRJ100/200 and 700/900 main gear are very different as the 100/200 has the trailing gear carried over from its Challenger heritage, and the 700/900 has a more typical airliner-style gear. I used to grease the 100/200 on but alternating with the 900 made for some less than stellar landings in it.

I had type a similar response but it got lost in Avcanada world, never to be seen again, the gear are very different and a loss of lift from GLD deployed in the air will likely collapse many gear types.
This latest incident appears to have flown straight to a hard landing, could have stalled I suppose, that is yet to be determined but the parallels are not that significant.
Had the FO in the Jazz RJ 200 placed thrust levers to idle, other than side loading it would have been a normal landing, the bounce and subsequent GLD deployment caused the gear to collapse.
I reiterate though, the FDR will show full right aileron inputs, I even just had a look at the closest video again and it sure looks like left wing had full down aileron and I don’t see the ground spoilers, so perhaps the thrust levers were not at idle in this case either.

[rookiepilot]

Delta offering crash survivors $30K; crews begin removing plane wreckage from Pearson airport runway

https://www.cp24.com/news/2025/02/20/de ... rt-runway/

Delta is smart…

[daedalusx]

That a hard landing in a CRJ can result in a gear collapse. A potential parallel being a crosswind landing and a lower time FO at the controls.

The GLD parameters and bounced landings are also an interesting sidebar, not that they necessarily contributed to this accident but there could be a discussion around the system as well.

CRJ100/200 and 700/900 main gear are very different as the 100/200 has the trailing gear carried over from its Challenger heritage, and the 700/900 has a more typical airliner-style gear. I used to grease the 100/200 on but alternating with the 900 made for some less than stellar landings in it.

I had type a similar response but it got lost in Avcanada world, never to be seen again, the gear are very different and a loss of lift from GLD deployed in the air will likely collapse many gear types.
This latest incident appears to have flown straight to a hard landing, could have stalled I suppose, that is yet to be determined but the parallels are not that significant.
Had the FO in the Jazz RJ 200 placed thrust levers to idle, other than side loading it would have been a normal landing, the bounce and subsequent GLD deployment caused the gear to collapse.
I reiterate though, the FDR will show full right aileron inputs, I even just had a look at the closest video again and it sure looks like left wing had full down aileron and I don’t see the ground spoilers, so perhaps the thrust levers were not at idle in this case either.

Could you elaborate on that ? Couldn't it be that she rolled the thrust to idle way to early and simply ran out of energy and airspeed to flare ? Especially if she was cross-controlling, keeping the thrust on longer would have helped. Just curious, I've never flown the RJ.

[daedalusx]

It is tough in these conditions, one is tempted to land with power on, to get a smoother landing, but you risk landing long or even going off the end of the runway.

They were coming in on 23. Even if they came in 5-10knots faster than target speed you'll still make the tdz.

[cdnavater]

CRJ100/200 and 700/900 main gear are very different as the 100/200 has the trailing gear carried over from its Challenger heritage, and the 700/900 has a more typical airliner-style gear. I used to grease the 100/200 on but alternating with the 900 made for some less than stellar landings in it.

I had type a similar response but it got lost in Avcanada world, never to be seen again, the gear are very different and a loss of lift from GLD deployed in the air will likely collapse many gear types.
This latest incident appears to have flown straight to a hard landing, could have stalled I suppose, that is yet to be determined but the parallels are not that significant.
Had the FO in the Jazz RJ 200 placed thrust levers to idle, other than side loading it would have been a normal landing, the bounce and subsequent GLD deployment caused the gear to collapse.
I reiterate though, the FDR will show full right aileron inputs, I even just had a look at the closest video again and it sure looks like left wing had full down aileron and I don’t see the ground spoilers, so perhaps the thrust levers were not at idle in this case either.

Could you elaborate on that ? Couldn't it be that she rolled the thrust to idle way to early and simply ran out of energy and airspeed to flare ? Especially if she was cross-controlling, keeping the thrust on longer would have helped.

It’s difficult to say for sure by looking at the closest video I’ve seen but I cannot see any GLD deployment. The rolling motion occurs immediately, the left wing is up probably 40-50 degrees about half a second after the collapse, about 3 seconds to fully inverted, you can also see the nose wheel back in the air, my guess the controls will also show full aft elevator input as a reaction to the hard touchdown. The wing that was still attached would have still had lift without GLD deployment.
Thrust levers position, likely not at idle, it was a very flat approach and was very nearly a three point touchdown but it would be difficult to say from that video how close to stall that they were, I kind of feel like they were above Vref and maybe stuffed the nose down to force the landing, but the gear collapse could have prevented lift dumping as well.

[rigpiggy]

Look at the video from the 7 o'clock position, right wing snaps up at landing followed by the roll. Looking at Google map looks like it is off the Hilton on Derry.

[Eric Janson]

The Captain was an experienced sim instructor but only flew the line part-time. The FO was relatively new and had recently required additional sim training for "landing issues". The Captain was on the radios, the FO was flying. Nothing concrete, but just some perspective.

Aren't there restrictions for when the FO can land? Or is that not a North American thing?

My Airline has restrictions for FOs - as did most of my previous employers.

My Airline has a number of Cat C airports (Captain only for take-off and landing).

Given the conditions the FO would not have been allowed to land if my company was landing in these conditions.

As for thrust management:-

Under these conditions the thrust is the last thing I'll touch. That's the only thing keeping you flying.

What works really well on the A340 is to flare then bring the thrust levers back halfway so some thrust remains. Reduce to idle when everything looks good - ideally you touch down as the thrust levers reach the idle stop.

If it's not working out then I won't hesitate to make a go-around.

I've never heard a word about any go-around I've ever done.

[ant_321]

The Captain was an experienced sim instructor but only flew the line part-time. The FO was relatively new and had recently required additional sim training for "landing issues". The Captain was on the radios, the FO was flying. Nothing concrete, but just some perspective.

Aren't there restrictions for when the FO can land? Or is that not a North American thing?

My Airline has restrictions for FOs - as did most of my previous employers.

My Airline has a number of Cat C airports (Captain only for take-off and landing).

Given the conditions the FO would not have been allowed to land if my company was landing in these conditions.

As for thrust management:-

Under these conditions the thrust is the last thing I'll touch. That's the only thing keeping you flying.

What works really well on the A340 is to flare then bring the thrust levers back halfway so some thrust remains. Reduce to idle when everything looks good - ideally you touch down as the thrust levers reach the idle stop.

If it's not working out then I won't hesitate to make a go-around.

I've never heard a word about any go-around I've ever done.

No first officer restrictions at my airline unless it’s a C airport or narrow runway. It wouldn’t have applied in this situation.

[JasonE]

Wreckage videos posted by TSB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzEjvpb38ic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr9eSSowiKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYJnuPyWRsA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URRFSABNbeM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjg11Uh6uZA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZYZAKGtttc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOlVlhLrTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srjAkMqCWE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0liC5hvmbdU

[cdnavater]

The Captain was an experienced sim instructor but only flew the line part-time. The FO was relatively new and had recently required additional sim training for "landing issues". The Captain was on the radios, the FO was flying. Nothing concrete, but just some perspective.

Aren't there restrictions for when the FO can land? Or is that not a North American thing?

My Airline has restrictions for FOs - as did most of my previous employers.

My Airline has a number of Cat C airports (Captain only for take-off and landing).

Given the conditions the FO would not have been allowed to land if my company was landing in these conditions.

As for thrust management:-

Under these conditions the thrust is the last thing I'll touch. That's the only thing keeping you flying.

What works really well on the A340 is to flare then bring the thrust levers back halfway so some thrust remains. Reduce to idle when everything looks good - ideally you touch down as the thrust levers reach the idle stop.

If it's not working out then I won't hesitate to make a go-around.

I've never heard a word about any go-around I've ever done.

At Jazz on the CRJ 900, so the same aircraft as the crash, there is a FO crosswind restriction of 70% of the Captain limit until the FO reaches 500 on type.
It appears that at the time of the accident, the RCC was 5/5/5, this puts the crosswind limit at 27 knots at 90 degree, FO limit 19 knots at 90 degrees. We use steady state for calculating the crosswind, the wind during that time was variable 20-27 gusting 35. At the low end the crosswind was 11 knots, even using the peak gust it amounts to 19 knot crosswind component.
So, yes at Jazz the low time FO could do this approach, it is possible this will change depending on the TSB outcome or based on preliminary information as a precaution. We have already made changes to DCA operations!
As for thrust, the technique varies but SOP is mandatory thrust at idle for touchdown, how to accomplish that is the variable. Some like to chop at 20’, my preference is to slowly retardant with timing of idle by the 10’ call out.
We are pro go around, you will not hear about it, of course if you routinely go around for unstable approaches, you may come in for some stable approach and landing training to try and fix the route cause of your go arounds!

[Deadcat]

Some good info in this vid. FD hatch is open and one of the persons being led away has snow on his butt and back. I wonder if that was the captain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sHnkF-088

[JHR]

Snow or foam?

[rookiepilot]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

Yet. 3 in critical condition at last report.

I feel for them, and other pax emotionally scarred by being violently turned upside down in an aircraft.

Whether I feel as much for the Cap and Fo will depend on the substance of the TSB’s report.

How’s this post aging…. based on the information coming out…hmmmmm

[Downwash]

Information about Endeavor Air 4819 flight crew
https://news.delta.com/notice/endeavor-flight-4819

[daedalusx]

Information about Endeavor Air 4819 flight crew
https://news.delta.com/notice/endeavor-flight-4819

You can tell this was written by lawyers and a PR firm.

First Officer: Hired in January 2024 by Endeavor Air and completed training in April.

Somehow the FO was hired in Jan 2024. Was she still in line indoc or could only fly with LTCs in Feb 2025 ? hint hint

Also

Assertions that he failed to flow into a pilot position at Delta Air Lines due to training failures are also false.

Read this carefully, typical PR/lawyer speech that doesn't say anything.
Did he try to go to Delta and went back to Endeavor ?
Did he fail due to reasons other than training failure ?