DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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pelmet
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pelmet »

pitottubey wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:57 am
DanWEC wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 6:56 pm I have a small sample group, but here's what I'd like to say;

I've taught roughly 100 pilots. Maybe 6 or 7 were women.
Of those, every single one was exceptional compared to the overall 100.

Taking an average from the men and the women, the women showed up better prepared, more intent, and less hungover. They were more even-keeled, owned up to mistakes better, and improved on weaknesses better.

If there was anything that could be a challenge it could be that they can be a little meeker and more polite initially- but that's only an issue in an operating environment full of boisterous dudes.
After a few years on the line, any hint of that is definitely gone!
If were sharing anecdotes, I cant say I've seen what you've seen.
If I were to be honest and as unbiased as possible, I would guess 60/40 on the good side maybe a bit more. Probably not that much different than the guys. Worst one actually ran out of gas after a bunch of other screw-ups on a flight that I skydived out of. She landed in a field. I was told she denied any fault in fuel management. Apparently got a commercial job after that. Been over a decade now so probably at AC now with fawning managers. I know that there have been plenty of screw-ups by other pilots but this one was very close to me and I likely would have died based on the terrain off the end of the runway that we took off from, if the gas had run out at the wrong time....You Go Girl.

All that being said, I am all for everybody getting the same equal fair chance. I see the BS that there are currently less women as pilots because there had less exposure to it when younger. It is just another excuse to try and reserve the glory jobs for themselves while avoiding the dirty jobs(and in fact forcing others into those jobs). Trump has the right idea for these endless excuse-makers....don't try to reason with the unreasonable....crush them(policy wise).
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Many of us know of women that are Captains at Big Red that failed rides in 703. It's very difficult to know if they got there because they improved their skills or because of their gender.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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Daniel Cooper wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:20 pm Many of us know of women that are Captains at Big Red that failed rides in 703. It's very difficult to know if they got there because they improved their skills or because of their gender.
I know of 2 that failed rides at Jazz of all places ...
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pelmet »

daedalusx wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:43 pm
Daniel Cooper wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:20 pm Many of us know of women that are Captains at Big Red that failed rides in 703. It's very difficult to know if they got there because they improved their skills or because of their gender.
I know of 2 that failed rides at Jazz of all places ...
A lot of pilots have failed rides. I have no doubt that many males failed rides and are AC captains. I think they ask you this in the interview and you are expected to state what you learned form it and it shows how you recognized your errors.

Therefore, the checkride failure does not mean anything. This is what means something. i posted it yesterday and it was deleted.

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There are several job postings like this for an organization supposedly dedicated to aviation safety. Why are so many willing to sacrifice that.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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pelmet wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:02 pm

[Who can apply: Canadian Citizens and Permanent Residents who are members of the following Employment Equity groups: aboriginal persons, visible minorities, persons with disabilities or women. Please fill Employment Equity Form.
There are several job postings like this for an organization supposedly dedicated to aviation safety. Why are so many willing to sacrifice that.
Well that explains why it takes years to get accident reports.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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pelmet wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:02 pm
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There are several job postings like this for an organization supposedly dedicated to aviation safety. Why are so many willing to sacrifice that.
What a terrible website. To create an account you have to get an access code emailed to you which is fine but the access code they send you is too many characters for the input box so you can't actually create an account. It's also rife with spelling errors.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pelmet »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:18 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:02 pm
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There are several job postings like this for an organization supposedly dedicated to aviation safety. Why are so many willing to sacrifice that.
What a terrible website. To create an account you have to get an access code emailed to you which is fine but the access code they send you is too many characters for the input box so you can't actually create an account. It's also rife with spelling errors.
Perhaps they restrict who is allowed to work on their website too.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by chephy »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:20 pm Many of us know of women that are Captains at Big Red that failed rides in 703. It's very difficult to know if they got there because they improved their skills or because of their gender.
I am sure there are plenty of male AC pilots who have failed rides.

And if they haven't improved their skills, are you suggesting that Big Red has lower standards training and checking than 703 operators, to a degree that somehow allows people not capable of checking out on a Metro to pass a command course on a 705 jet? And those low standards are selectively applied based on gender? How would that work, exactly? "The tolerances for this manoeuvre are +/-100' but you are a woman so +/-500' will do"?
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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pelmet wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:47 pm All that being said, I am all for everybody getting the same equal fair chance. I see the BS that there are currently less women as pilots because there had less exposure to it when younger. It is just another excuse to try and reserve the glory jobs for themselves while avoiding the dirty jobs(and in fact forcing others into those jobs).
Social pressures make a huge difference though. I see you still haven't addressed the drastic gender reversal when it comes to interest in horses.

Btw, I wonder if people talking about garbage collecting as a dirty undesirable job realize that it is actually quite well-paying (especially considering you don't need much in terms of qualifications) and sought after. Check out: https://money.cnn.com/2016/02/24/news/e ... -high-pay/ - and it's from almost ten years ago, too! The article talks about the U.S., but in Toronto, for example, garbage collectors start at over 30 dollars an hour, and some people pull six figures with a bit of overtime and what not. I doubt anyone is being forced to do this job...

Also, btw, there definitely is a push to have equal opportunities for women in "trades", "dirty jobs", and yes, garbage collection specifically; see, for instance https://www.circularonline.co.uk/opinio ... al-change/ or https://www.wastetodaymagazine.com/arti ... waste-244/ or https://www.helvetas.org/en/switzerland ... f-Villazon
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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fliter wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 12:49 am
pelmet wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:47 pm All that being said, I am all for everybody getting the same equal fair chance. I see the BS that there are currently less women as pilots because there had less exposure to it when younger. It is just another excuse to try and reserve the glory jobs for themselves while avoiding the dirty jobs(and in fact forcing others into those jobs).
Social pressures make a huge difference though. I see you still haven't addressed the drastic gender reversal when it comes to interest in horses.

Btw, I wonder if people talking about garbage collecting as a dirty undesirable job realize that it is actually quite well-paying (especially considering you don't need much in terms of qualifications) and sought after. Check out: https://money.cnn.com/2016/02/24/news/e ... -high-pay/ - and it's from almost ten years ago, too! The article talks about the U.S., but in Toronto, for example, garbage collectors start at over 30 dollars an hour, and some people pull six figures with a bit of overtime and what not. I doubt anyone is being forced to do this job...

Also, btw, there definitely is a push to have equal opportunities for women in "trades", "dirty jobs", and yes, garbage collection specifically; see, for instance https://www.circularonline.co.uk/opinio ... al-change/ or https://www.wastetodaymagazine.com/arti ... waste-244/ or https://www.helvetas.org/en/switzerland ... f-Villazon
Amazing how the DEI frauds mislead. Several articles about how the garbage industry has women in it and is aggressively recruiting them for………..office and management jobs. Remember how I said they want the clean and glory jobs reserved for themselves? Wouldn’t surprise me if none of them ever rode on the back of the garbage truck once and actually spent a day personally lifting and and dumping the trash cans.

But don't worry folks. After scouring the internet desperately for hours to try and find a female trash collector, Fliter finally found the one woman in the world picking up trash cans for a living to justify his defense of the whole DEI structure in Canada and the US. Who is it?……. some poor desperate woman in Bolivia. There you go folks, the women of the world are taking over the dirty jobs because they are attracted to it, and no doubt upset at their small representation in that field.

Seeing as we are talking about foreign jobs now, I watch war videos about the Ukraine war every night on Twitter(Hoping for Ukraine). Maybe we should find out what the ratio is of women to men that have gone through hell and died for that country as a soldier. A thousand to one perhaps? Those terrible males stealing all the jobs.

I guess this all justifies the dangerous DEI frauds reserving accident investigator jobs.

No doubt Fliter will spend the day doing another internet search and find another female picking up trash.....don't bother.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Mar 06, 2025 6:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by Bingo Fuel »

Applicants for jobs should have their name scrubbed from their application and resume.

Then the interview answers are transcribed and assessed later by a selection board, so they never hear the applicant's voice, or see their face. The applicant's name should only be revealed after they have been selected.

That's the only way I can see to truly select an applicant on merit alone, without introducing any bias due to race or gender.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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Bingo Fuel wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 8:12 am Applicants for jobs should have their name scrubbed from their application and resume.

Then the interview answers are transcribed and assessed later by a selection board, so they never hear the applicant's voice, or see their face. The applicant's name should only be revealed after they have been selected.

That's the only way I can see to truly select an applicant on merit alone, without introducing any bias due to race or gender.
It's interesting though. When auditioning for orchestras, it's so easy to do it blind, and it's been going on for years, yet a few years ago people were calling to abolish this practice to get a more racially diverse group of musicians. Absolutely ridiculous.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts ... -race.html (there's multiple other sources as well)
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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fliter wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 12:49 am Social pressures make a huge difference though. I see you still haven't addressed the drastic gender reversal when it comes to interest in horses.
Have you ever attended a rodeo ? Ever been out in cattle country ? Get out into areas where horses are working animals, you wont see that diference. But, in more urban areas where horses are simply pets, you likely will. To explain it, just ask your GF where it tickles when she rides a horse bareback, and there is your answer.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pelmet »

goldeneagle wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 11:41 am
fliter wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2025 12:49 am Social pressures make a huge difference though. I see you still haven't addressed the drastic gender reversal when it comes to interest in horses.
Have you ever attended a rodeo ? Ever been out in cattle country ? Get out into areas where horses are working animals, you wont see that diference. But, in more urban areas where horses are simply pets, you likely will.
Exactly. Some people only see what they want to see. Hardly ever outside the city be a few miles. That doesn’t mean things haven’t changed over the last century. Cultural changes, especially since the ‘60’s mean women are doing many more things than they did in the ‘30’s. I am quite happy with that.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pelmet »

That's odd. Most of the DEI defenders seem to have stopped commenting after I posted that at least some senior accident investigator positions are specifically eliminating a large percentage of the qualified population instead, you know, just hiring only the best and brightest. I wonder if any will come back and twist themselves into pretzels with justifications.
pelmet wrote: Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:02 pm
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There are several job postings like this for an organization supposedly dedicated to aviation safety. Why are so many willing to sacrifice that.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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The civil service became make-work jobs for losers long ago. We need to get rid of 95% of it and start fresh with only what's required.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2025 1:53 pm The civil service became make-work jobs for losers long ago. We need to get rid of 95% of it and start fresh with only what's required.
95% may be excessive but we could you a big dose of DOGE up here.

Hey......Elon is a Canadian citizen.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pitottubey »

Fliter really grasping at straws to justify DEI. Ok in your world garbage collector is coveted career. Whats your definition for a shit job then? Is there a push for DEI to be in it? We need more DEI coal miners and DEI sewage cleaners right? Or is that also a great sought after career that strives to improve DEI hiring. What a joke.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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Isn't it amazing when the actual truth comes out.....It is all about choice and the reasons given by the DEI supporters are fraudulent claims(Bob was suggesting in a moderator deleted post that I am a Klansman).

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/career/ ... r-AA1zP3ao

The gender pay gap is real—but not for the reasons you might think

The headlines are consistent: The gender pay gap has narrowed, but American women who work full time still make only 84 cents for every dollar men do. That’s certainly better than at the turn of the century—when it was 77 cents—but far short of parity.

So, is this proof of continuing workplace discrimination? Not so much, says new research from the McKinsey Global Institute (MGI). The pay gap figure is a snapshot of a moment. The MGI research is more like a time-lapse video. Using a data set of 86,000 online work histories, MGI analyzed individual career decisions over time, allowing it to gain insight into how people navigate their careers. The research found that the great majority—some 80%—of the total pay gap between male and female earners in part-time and full-time roles was attributable to the differences in the way men and women pursue their career paths

There could be many motivations behind what MGI calls the “work-experience gap,” and these are exceedingly difficult to discern from the data. But the point is that the differences exist, and they matter. Looking at the mean annual wages in the data set—which is overweighted with white-collar, higher-paid professionals who are of particular interest to talent-scouting employers—we estimate that over a 30-year career, the gap adds up to about $500,000 per woman.

One third of the work-experience pay gap is due to women working fewer hours than men, because they are more likely to be in part-time roles. Women are also more likely to take breaks between jobs, and they stay out longer each time. Combined, this results in women gaining an average 8.6 years of work experience for every 10 gained by men.

The other two-thirds can be traced to career dynamics. This starts early: Just over half of all men in the sample entered the workforce in top-pay quintile occupations, compared with 35% of women. And then the pattern continues. Women are more likely to switch to lower-paying occupations and roles during their careers.

Even among men and women who start off in the same occupation, women were 1.5 times less likely to move into top-paying occupations. For example, among those who started as brokers, women were apt to move into roles like credit counselors, and men into highly competitive—and better-paid—roles like fund management. In nursing, a woman-dominated profession, the patterns are similar, with 41% of men advancing to higher-paying occupations, such as medical and health services managers, compared to 20% of women.

In short, the data found that women consistently make trade-offs, choosing roles with more flexibility and less competition but also lower pay. Not all women, of course, or all the time, but often enough to make a difference.

Given tight labor markets and a future in which there could be fewer people entering the workforce at all, talent is at a premium. Business leaders, then, might want to think about how they can reduce the work-experience pay gap in their own companies, so that they can they keep women working more and advancing more reliably.

One set of employers seems to excel at doing just that. These “Performance and People (P&P) Winners,” who comprise about 10% of companies studied, not only facilitate career pathways for women that lead to smaller pay gaps, but also deliver top-tier financial performance and have lower attrition. They achieve this by creating skill-building opportunities for all employees through internal job rotations and training. They cultivate mobility opportunities and offer skill-building and apprenticeship programs, especially for midcareer talent. All this has been shown to increase employee satisfaction and retention. P&P winners also foster a performance-oriented culture with clear expectations that rewards employees for entrepreneurialism while coaching and supporting them. And not only is the pay gap smaller, but pay itself is higher for both men and women who passed through P&P employers at some point in their careers, even after adjusting for industry.

The gender pay gap is real. But it exists largely as the outcome of decisions of millions of individuals, who trade off the financial and non-financial attributes of work against other considerations. Understanding these choices is a vital step toward determining what to do.

For employers, it can also be an opportunity to craft a talent-management culture that works for everyone. Individuals make their own choices, but employers can do more to adapt to them, and to position themselves for the future.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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Diversity Thwarts Starmer Pledge to Put Jets Over Ukraine

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/di ... r-AA1AzkaN

RAF bosses have launched a desperate search for pilots after a secret bid to discriminate against white male applicants backfired.

Candidates previously overlooked are now being urged to re-apply for training as the Air Force frantically tries to fill cockpits with combat-ready flyers, the Mail can reveal.

The plea follows a controversial drive by top brass to prioritise the recruitment of women and ethnic minorities, which was found to be unlawful.

The urgent need for pilots has become so pressing that air chiefs are actively encouraging older candidates, who have some level of flight experience, to sign up.

It has been reported that the Royal Air Force is suffering from a 30 per cent shortfall in pilots at the ranks of Flight Lieutenant and Squadron Leader. Officials RAF sources have challenged these statistics but have not produced their own.

It comes as Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer pledged to put 'jets in the sky' to protect Ukraine as part of a post-conflict stabilisation force to be confirmed this week.

The Labour leader has already ramped up spending on defence to 2.5 per cent of GDP.

And other leaders in Europe quickly backed plans to step up their investment in military hardware after Donald Trump said they could no longer depend on the United States for protection.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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The solution to the gender wage gap, is to pay female pilots who choose to remain FO’s for better lifestyle and schedules, captain wages.

This way at the end of the 30 year career you can look at the data and say, wow we finally solved the problem, all the women made the same as the men.

This is what equality looks like, correct? Look how much time companies are investing in solving the pay gap. Union companies with collective agreements that have no mention of different rules for compensation between men and women. Somehow we still have a pay gap. Lots of mental gymnastics.

Still don’t know how the liberals got away with another white man as a leader. The liberal party leader has been a white man since 1867. So much for diversity from the party of hypocrites.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

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Screenshot_20250312_214135_Firefox~2.jpg
Screenshot_20250312_214135_Firefox~2.jpg (253.77 KiB) Viewed 3275 times
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by pelmet »

JustaCanadian wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:37 pm The solution to the gender wage gap, is to pay female pilots who choose to remain FO’s for better lifestyle and schedules, captain wages.

This way at the end of the 30 year career you can look at the data and say, wow we finally solved the problem, all the women made the same as the men.

This is what equality looks like, correct? Look how much time companies are investing in solving the pay gap. Union companies with collective agreements that have no mention of different rules for compensation between men and women. Somehow we still have a pay gap. Lots of mental gymnastics.

Still don’t know how the liberals got away with another white man as a leader. The liberal party leader has been a white man since 1867. So much for diversity from the party of hypocrites.
I think you have touched on a point. The desire for part time work, preferably at full time wages.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by tsgarp »

pitottubey wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:47 am
tsgarp wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 6:13 pm
CpnCrunch wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:49 pm

You do realise this was a hypothetical (made up) example of what the bell curve does NOT look like. Here is the tweet:

https://x.com/nuance_enjoyer/status/1785602734483534275

Most meta-analyses shows very little difference between male and females, so the second graph (above) is probably legit.

Image
The whole concept of IQ is questionable because there isn’t a widely accepted definition of intelligence. For linguistic tasks, women score higher. For mathematical/spatial tasks men score higher; does being good with languages mean you are smarter than someone who is good with math, or is it vice versa?
both of those are subjects on an IQ test, amongst others.
The concept of IQ tests has been generally dismissed in modern psychology due to the difficulties in defining IQ.
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Re: DEI And Aviation — Boeing’s take.

Post by CpnCrunch »

tsgarp wrote: Sat Mar 29, 2025 3:45 pm
The concept of IQ tests has been generally dismissed in modern psychology due to the difficulties in defining IQ.
You could probably ask an AI tool to estimate various posters' IQs from their comments here.
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