Code 7600 while VFR at an uncontrolled airport? WTF!

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:10 pm

In another thread someone was talking about selecting 7600 on the x-ponder for a suspected com failure at an uncontrolled airport while operating VFR. THAT IS NOT WHAT THAT CODE IS FOR, DON'T DO IT. If you lose your radios while in uncontrolled airspace, just keep a good look out, that is what that big V in VFR stands for. Use your eyeballs, that's why God gave them to you. Selecting 7600 is going to set off alarms at a bunch of IFR control units who you were never going to talk to in the first place.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:41 pm

I second that. I regularly work out of an uncontrolled aerodrome, and it's no big deal if you loose your radios. It is a bit of a pain, and we're pretty busy at times too, but that's what the circuit is for. Follow the right procedure, and be somewhere that others will look for you at. Don't go way out on downwind, and be at circuit altitude on downwind. It's a see and BE SEEN world out there, so keep your eyes open, and be somewhere predictable.

There is no use in selecting 7600 on your transponder at an uncontrolled aerodrome. It will accomplish nothing. There is no ATC to direct traffic around you. I also saw the comment regarding this in the other thread, but I attributed it to the author of that comment thinking we were talking about controlled airspace.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:43 pm

As an additional point, on occasion, the radios in our planes will be on the fritz from too many 'bounces'...So we'll still take the planes dual only, meaning if there is an instructor on board, even if it is R-Only or NORDO. I think it's actually a good opportunity for students to experience the fact that one can fly without radios.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:25 am

Right Seat Captain wrote:As an additional point, on occasion, the radios in our planes will be on the fritz from too many 'bounces'...So we'll still take the planes dual only, meaning if there is an instructor on board, even if it is R-Only or NORDO. I think it's actually a good opportunity for students to experience the fact that one can fly without radios.

So am I correct to assume that when you take this plane dual, it's for a lesson, not just a flight to show that the plane flies the same without radios? Do you stay in the circuit or go out to the practice area, or avoid these areas?

I guess what I'm leaning towards is that CYRO and the Ottawa practice area can get really REALLY busy at times with 5 flight schools within about a 10-15 minute flight... and when you put that many training aircraft in the same spot, add another intentionally NORDO aircraft in the training area or circuit with a lesson going on... hey, add someone in who's doing a first solo, or who's unfamiliar with the airport (no, not everyone does that little turn after take off to avoid flying over the houses even though it IS in the CFS)... don't you think you may have just added a link in an incident/accident chain? We all know that there are times in a lesson when the instructor is talking to the student & flying the airplane, that there may not be even one set of eyes doing a good lookout)...

*I'm talking specifically about CYRO, here... I know that NORDO is acceptable in many other environments.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:35 am

Just to add, RSC, you mentioned to fly a regular circuit & not go too far out on downwind, etc... I know you & I and every instructor out there would love for this to happen but unfortunately it doesn't. Almost every weekend we've brought the chippy in, something "interesting" happens in the circuit and it keeps both of us in the aircraft VERY busy scanning and trying to pick out even the aircraft that are making the radio calls! Different of altitudes, weird joining procedures, traffic going into CYND encroaching on the circuit, slow ultralights... I'd love for it to be always the "ideal" circuit out there, but it's life!

Just my 2 cents. Or 10 cents. Not to pick on you, I just disagree!

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:52 am

chipmunk wrote:Just to add, RSC, you mentioned to fly a regular circuit & not go too far out on downwind, etc... I know you & I and every instructor out there would love for this to happen but unfortunately it doesn't. Almost every weekend we've brought the chippy in, something "interesting" happens in the circuit and it keeps both of us in the aircraft VERY busy scanning and trying to pick out even the aircraft that are making the radio calls! Different of altitudes, weird joining procedures, traffic going into CYND encroaching on the circuit, slow ultralights... I'd love for it to be always the "ideal" circuit out there, but it's life!

Just my 2 cents. Or 10 cents. Not to pick on you, I just disagree!

Chipmunk, I know of the specific situation that occured a couple of months ago, I think you were in the chipmunk at the time...

You know just as well as I the frustration we go through all the time at CYRO for circuit procedures, especially with itinerant aircraft. You wouldn't believe the things that people do, such as taking off from the taxiway 'just because'. Anyways, you raise a valid point, that often peopl will say they loose their radio, so they'll keep an extra vigilant look out. Well I say that vigilant look out should have been done even with the radios working. Who know who's flying around you.

I for one have learnt over the years, especially flying out of Rockcliffe, there are some real yahoos that are flying around us all the time.

To answer your other question regarding the NORDO operations, no, we wouldn't just go out because it's NORDO...usually we would be booked for a lesson, and we have one plane that ended up NORDO that day. It doesn't happen often. In fact they are usually receive only, when a problem does occur. Anyways, we would typically remain in the circuit, but have gone out to the practice area too.

I know what you are saying regarding the practice area being busy at times. But it may surprise you to hear that I sometimes feel safer without the radios, because we get less complacent with the look out. As you were saying, we often find ourselves talking to the student when they are flying, and the look out gets compromised...this shouldn't be done in the first place, but one must especially not do this when flying with no radio. This is the exact reason it is kept as dual only.

It may not answer your question, and it might not be the response you wanted to hear, but now that's my 2 cents

TheHub · Post by **TheHub** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:07 am

Another point to add that mcrit and RSC didn't mention, if you experience a COMM failure in uncontrolled airspace, make sure you continue to transmit your intentions. I can't count the number of times I have had both radios fail, and later been told that I was heard making all the proper calls coming back into the airport.
Always make sure that you try the handheld mic and the speaker above your head as well...it could just be a headset problem!
Just a note for the guys and gals still in the learning phases.

Fly Safe

TheHub

rotateandfly · Post by **rotateandfly** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:42 am

However, I dont see a point in squawking 7600 even if im certain my radios failed if Im flying in the circuit pattern of an uncontrolled aerodrome in uncontrolled airspace.

Thats what i wrote in the other thread, i think you were referring to my thread. My point exactly, dont squawk 7600 at an uncontrolled aerodrome, unless of course if its a Mandatory Frequency (isnt CYND MF??), because you're not permitted to fly NORDO into a MF aerodrome

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:26 am

Keep in mind in your last thread that info was left out, except that you referred to an "intercom". There are also a good number of "uncontrolled" places that provide advisory service and have access to radar. By leaving out the bit about squawk code, and why you chose not to do it, I simply wondered if you had considered all of your NORDO procedures.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:55 am

TheHub wrote:Another point to add that mcrit and RSC didn't mention, if you experience a COMM failure in uncontrolled airspace, make sure you continue to transmit your intentions. I can't count the number of times I have had both radios fail, and later been told that I was heard making all the proper calls coming back into the airport.
Always make sure that you try the handheld mic and the speaker above your head as well...it could just be a headset problem!
Just a note for the guys and gals still in the learning phases.

Fly Safe

TheHub

Good point. If you do experience radio problems though, make sure you're not in a busy traffic area, or are not in a critical phase of flight when you start to trouble shoot. I've seen people try to fix radio problems the moment they rotate, or on downwind when they are already trying to watch out for other traffic. They'll put their head down and be trying to fix the headset plugs or something at the worst possible time.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:16 am

Right Seat Captain wrote:
Chipmunk, I know of the specific situation that occured a couple of months ago, I think you were in the chipmunk at the time...

I originally started responding to your post from purely an instructor's viewpoint, thinking about the solo student - knowing how busy they are in the cockpit and making mistakes, etc, as students do. I did have a little section in there about the "situation"

that occurred but decided to leave it out, lumping it in with the other "interesting things!" so yes, that was in the back of my mind too. (NORDO aircraft coming in final to the runway opposite to the one we had just departed.)

Right Seat Captain wrote:It may not answer your question, and it might not be the response you wanted to hear, but now that's my 2 cents

...just wanted your 2 cents back!

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:13 am

I agree with not squawking 7600 in uncontrolled airspace - really wouldn't do any good anyway since presumably you're not on radar anyway.

However, many uncontrolled airports are in controlled airspace. Since they have been designated as having control zones because of traffic volume - I think that it would be wise to squawk 7600. Why wouldn't you? That way Centre can advise the G5 that is 5 minutes from starting the approach that there is traffic and that the traffic is NORDO.

3Green · Post by **3Green** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:29 pm

Sakism, you sure sound "high and mighty". This isn't a place for know-it-alls...thanks for comin' out.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:56 pm

I dont know why this made me think of this but back when i was doing my training, a student was out solo practicing on a Severe Clear day. When all of a sudden he noticed some of his intruments where not wroking correctly. He recalled something from his training about breaking open the glass to get a static source. Maybe that will work!! He proceeded to smash the glass on the ALT, A/S and the VSI. He flew back to base and told of how he averted disater to the CFI/Owner.

Intructors scatterd in all direction. We didnt see much of Ed for the rest of the summer.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:13 pm

Lol, that's hiliarious ..

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:12 am

sakism Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005

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I agree with not squawking 7600 in uncontrolled airspace - really wouldn't do any good anyway since presumably you're not on radar anyway.

However, many uncontrolled airports are in controlled airspace. Since they have been designated as having control zones because of traffic volume - I think that it would be wise to squawk 7600. Why wouldn't you? That way Centre can advise the G5 that is 5 minutes from starting the approach that there is traffic and that the traffic is NORDO.

3Green Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005

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Sakism, you sure sound "high and mighty". This isn't a place for know-it-alls...thanks for comin' out.

sakism may sound "high and mighty" to you, but he has a point. Donald also made some good points.

The original post and the following one in this thread said "uncontrolled airport" not "uncontrolled airspace".

Uncontrolled airports are not always uncontrolled airspace. Uncontrolled airspace can have radar coverage.

Growing numbers of uncontrolled airports, served by FSS, have radar now. I'd certainly have questions for anyone transponder equipped if they flew into an airport I worked at without squawking 7600 during a Comm failure , if there was radar in the FSS.

sakism is also correct that ATC can advise aircraft inbound/outbound, or FSS, of the Comm failure.

mcrit: Please be careful about making blanket statements like
"In another thread someone was talking about selecting 7600 on the x-ponder for a suspected com failure at an uncontrolled airport while operating VFR. THAT IS NOT WHAT THAT CODE IS FOR, DON'T DO IT."

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:01 pm

Thanks lilfssister,

That 3green is just a jackass anyway.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:03 pm

sakism wrote:Thanks lilfssister,

That 3green is just a jackass anyway.

She's mine! You can't have her!!!

PoC · Post by **PoC** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:35 pm

She's mine! You can't have her!!![/quote]

Actually she's mine so piss off mate.

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:05 am

Squawk 7600 regardless of the airspace you're in. Check the AIM. Spells it out clearly.