Career Advice

[jw1]

Hi all,

Graduated in the Fall from a college with TT 285, Group 1, and A's written. As everyone knows hiring has slowed/stopped, I've applied to operators in towns all over the country, I will travel anywhere for work I'm not picky. Instructor rating wait list is another 4 months at least in CYOO, certainly willing to do an instructors rating at this point and I think I'd enjoy it as much as being up North but I am not sure if getting a job with that will be any easier. If the schools are doing 3-4 student classes every couple months I am not sure if they'd be able to hire all the candidates. I could do my instructor rating with Alec Myers at CYTZ but I am not sure if career prospects would be good doing the rating on the Grob and not doing it at a flight school who hires graduates. Appreciate any comments.

Cheers

[BigQ]

The one thing differentiating you from the next guy with sub 300TT is that you are willing to actually do the road trip necessary to meet people face to face, shake their hand, and start luggging bags on day 1, whereas all your competition stays in mom's basement in the GTA, right?

Sorry to sound facetious, but yeah, you need to develop an unfair advantage. And right now, that's called actually doing the drive.

[Z28]

The one thing differentiating you from the next guy with sub 300TT is that you are willing to actually do the road trip necessary to meet people face to face, shake their hand, and start luggging bags on day 1, whereas all your competition stays in mom's basement in the GTA, right?

Sorry to sound facetious, but yeah, you need to develop an unfair advantage. And right now, that's called actually doing the drive.

100% agree
I remember 20 years ago I was driving around Northern Ontario looking for any flying job including floats as I had a float rating. Drove up to Elliot Lake walked in to Blake’s air service and the guy hired me the same day.

He told me he hired me because I was the only one that knocked on his door so get out and continue driving! Good luck!

[daedalusx]

Dude it's still literally the best time in the last 25 years as a 300 hr wonder to get a flying job.
I know 2 sub-300 hrs wonders who got jobs in 2025, one on a PC12 and one of a 1900 and neither are "northern" jobs.

Chrono just hired an FO on the Dash8 with less than 1000TT

If you're 20 and never held a real job before, have no industry connections, you should really consider getting your foot in the door through a flight follower/ramp/etc job.

[CheddarPilot]

As some one who's in the 300 hour range looking for my first gig, I hate it when people say oh yea just get in and drive there, its almost like they don't know how big Canada is. Sure ill do 20,000km 5 month drive to every little outfit all over the provinces.
I get that its a good way but i don't understand how your meant to narrow it down to where you head and hope you get taken on.

[digits_]

As some one who's in the 300 hour range looking for my first gig, I hate it when people say oh yea just get in and drive there, its almost like they don't know how big Canada is. Sure ill do 20,000km 5 month drive to every little outfit all over the provinces.
I get that its a good way but i don't understand how your meant to narrow it down to where you head and hope you get taken on.

You pick a spot and you drive there. Which spot? You look on the VNC where there at float bases or airports at the end of a road. You google and see if there are any operators out there. You look on navcanada in one of the many roadtrip topics.

Nobody says you have to visit them all. If it takes 5 months, you're timing it wrong. Probably too late for a seasonal job right now, but you always run into the chance of visiting an operator when the newly hired guy didn't show up.

People call it a road trip, but nobody says you can't just fly in. Do your 200 NM cross country to outfits where you'd like to work.

[TeePeeCreeper]

As some one who's in the 300 hour range looking for my first gig, I hate it when people say oh yea just get in and drive there, its almost like they don't know how big Canada is. Sure ill do 20,000km 5 month drive to every little outfit all over the provinces.
I get that its a good way but i don't understand how your meant to narrow it down to where you head and hope you get taken on.

Interesting take. 20 some years ago, I packed my bags, had my car tuned and hit the road.

Are we trying to reinvent the wheel here?

[canadianfly]

I'm meeting digits_'s advise here.

Looking for a job is like preparing for a flight, most of the prep is done before hands, do your home work in a methodical way just like when the cops draw ring radius after a jail break. Don't get too excited and hit the road immediately.

If you can't hit the road, i would suggest taking a job as a receptionist in a training facility that offers B1900 sims or similar then the operators will come to you.

Best of luck mate.

[jw1]

Thank you for your responses. I have just decided to go with an instructors rating this summer. I know multi IFR time is more valuable but I know people on ramp for the next 2 years with no end in site. I can log hours flying a 172, not loading bags. I think it's just what I will enjoy more.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think you missed the point that people were trying to convey here... Plan to visit places that are way off the beaten path, you'll have a much better chance at getting hired on the spot. Get the hell out of Ontario, there are flying jobs a plenty the further west you go. Your friends who took ramp jobs probably didn't stray too far from civilization, which is why they are stuck working the ramp.

An instructor rating is not the magic ticket to employment that you think it is, especially since you're becoming an instructor for all the wrong reasons.

[jw1]

I think you missed the point that people were trying to convey here... Plan to visit places that are way off the beaten path, you'll have a much better chance at getting hired on the spot. Get the hell out of Ontario, there are flying jobs a plenty the further west you go. Your friends who took ramp jobs probably didn't stray too far from civilization, which is why they are stuck working the ramp.

An instructor rating is not the magic ticket to employment that you think it is, especially since you're becoming an instructor for all the wrong reasons.

I want to become an instructor because I think it'll be more rewarding for me personally compared to some of the alternatives. I am in no rush to fast-track to the airlines, I'm still young. It's just not feasible for me to drive to Alberta right now, and a lot of the ops are posting no walk-ins or calls with this surge of road trip seekers. Maybe it's something I'll revisit but for now I'm going to stick with starting my instructors rating.

[nine sixteenths]

Thank you for your responses. I have just decided to go with an instructors rating this summer. I know multi IFR time is more valuable but I know people on ramp for the next 2 years with no end in site. I can log hours flying a 172, not loading bags. I think it's just what I will enjoy more.

Career progression advice: don’t ask those more experienced than you for advice then ignore all the advice and do the opposite thing. If you’re gonna continue to do that, don’t bother asking for the advice.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Thank you for your responses. I have just decided to go with an instructors rating this summer. I know multi IFR time is more valuable but I know people on ramp for the next 2 years with no end in site. I can log hours flying a 172, not loading bags. I think it's just what I will enjoy more.

Career progression advice: don’t ask those more experienced than you for advice then ignore all the advice and do the opposite thing. If you’re gonna continue to do that, don’t bother asking for the advice.

He will realize the err of his ways after he’s spent tens of thousands on an instructor rating, while his peers who chose to pursue a legitimate flying job will progress their career by leaps and bounds.

[digits_]

He will realize the err of his ways after he’s spent tens of thousands on an instructor rating, while his peers who chose to pursue a legitimate flying job will progress their career by leaps and bounds.

Ah yes, some good old 'instructing isn't a legitimate flying job' bashing. We've been overdue for that one!

[jw1]

Didn't mean for things to get sarcastic, I wasn't aware instructing isn't a legitimate flying job, I am not sure who taught me to fly then. I am not disregarding anyone's advice, I considered the options and came to a decision.

[48ragwing]

I think some key points are still being overlooked. You have to network. I had an entire career before flying in sales and tons of places said no walk ins. If I stopped at the sign I would have been unemployed.

If you are young and don't have life experience and only flying experience I would get into something to build that resilience. Ramp work is more then getting covered in JET-A. It shows you can grind a job and do things you DON'T wanna do in order to get what you want. They are well aware you don't wanna do it. That is the point.

I wish you nothing but the best in your search. If you accept you won't quit doing anything and everything you can to get a job, it will come. You can't control if someone decides to hire you, you can only control what you every day you get up. Keep grinding pal. You have gotten this far.

[digits_]

If you are young and don't have life experience and only flying experience I would get into something to build that resilience. Ramp work is more then getting covered in JET-A. It shows you can grind a job and do things you DON'T wanna do in order to get what you want. They are well aware you don't wanna do it. That is the point.

No it isn't. That's how it's being justified, but the ugly truth is they are putting low time pilots in those jobs so they can dangle the flying carrot and get away with paying (sometimes less than) minimum wage.

[48ragwing]

[/quote]

No it isn't. That's how it's being justified, but the ugly truth is they are putting low time pilots in those jobs so they can dangle the flying carrot and get away with paying (sometimes less than) minimum wage.
[/quote]

. That's the way it is and has always been in the real world. Unless you can afford to open a company and buy your own plane than this is your option. Is it "fair". Absolutely it isn't. Is it reality..... Absolutely.

But the only way past it is to get past it. It builds character and that makes it a good thing imo.


All the best in your search and future aviation endeavors. I truely do mean it. It's a hard road and noone skips the line. I respect everyone that even gets through the commitment required to get a CPL/MULTI/IFR/IATRA.

[digits_]

No it isn't. That's how it's being justified, but the ugly truth is they are putting low time pilots in those jobs so they can dangle the flying carrot and get away with paying (sometimes less than) minimum wage.

. That's the way it is and has always been in the real world. Unless you can afford to open a company and buy your own plane than this is your option. Is it "fair". Absolutely it isn't. Is it reality..... Absolutely.

But the only way past it is to get past it. It builds character and that makes it a good thing imo.


All the best in your search and future aviation endeavors. I truely do mean it. It's a hard road and noone skips the line. I respect everyone that even gets through the commitment required to get a CPL/MULTI/IFR/IATRA.

That's incorrect. The last 10 years people have absolutely gotten flying jobs that involved flying from day 1. Instructing is the common example there, but there have been 703 and 704 jobs that hire new low time pilots to actually fly. Wild, I know.
Are there still outfits that demand you go the ramp route? Yes, and the pilots who don't get a job at the abovementioned companies might still take the ramp route.

[Tbayer2021]

No it isn't. That's how it's being justified, but the ugly truth is they are putting low time pilots in those jobs so they can dangle the flying carrot and get away with paying (sometimes less than) minimum wage.

. That's the way it is and has always been in the real world. Unless you can afford to open a company and buy your own plane than this is your option. Is it "fair". Absolutely it isn't. Is it reality..... Absolutely.

But the only way past it is to get past it. It builds character and that makes it a good thing imo.


All the best in your search and future aviation endeavors. I truely do mean it. It's a hard road and noone skips the line. I respect everyone that even gets through the commitment required to get a CPL/MULTI/IFR/IATRA.

That's incorrect. The last 10 years people have absolutely gotten flying jobs that involved flying from day 1. Instructing is the common example there, but there have been 703 and 704 jobs that hire new low time pilots to actually fly. Wild, I know.
Are there still outfits that demand you go the ramp route? Yes, and the pilots who don't get a job at the abovementioned companies might still take the ramp route.

Yup! Talk about Stockholm syndrome. I can't believe how many actually argue that this is a good path to becoming a pilot and that the abuse is good for you. These companies have to rope pilots into these jobs because locals won't come anywhere near them since they know how horrible they actually are. But dangle that flying carrot in-front of a desperate and naive young kid and you've got all the rampies you could want.

[jw1]

I know I'm the poster here and I'll get called entitled but when I consulted a former instructor of mine (Retired from AC), that's what I was told as well. You spend 4-5 years working on a license + possibly a degree depending on where you study and you get put on ramp loading bags for 2 years. Does working a job like that build character? Absolutely, I won't deny that, I'm working right now in a completely unrelated field while I save up for instructing or have something open. I know I'm young and I have much to learn, but I would say spending the last 5 years in school concurrently doing a degree and flight training builds character as well. I just don't agree that it's a route that needs to exist, it's a means of acquiring cheap labor.

[Bede]

I know I'm the poster here and I'll get called entitled but when I consulted a former instructor of mine (Retired from AC), that's what I was told as well. You spend 4-5 years working on a license + possibly a degree depending on where you study and you get put on ramp loading bags for 2 years. Does working a job like that build character? Absolutely, I won't deny that, I'm working right now in a completely unrelated field while I save up for instructing or have something open. I know I'm young and I have much to learn, but I would say spending the last 5 years in school concurrently doing a degree and flight training builds character as well. I just don't agree that it's a route that needs to exist, it's a means of acquiring cheap labor.

Well said.

[aviran9111]

Same. I got 500+ TT, and got TBNT from basically every employer.

[rookiepilot]

No it isn't. That's how it's being justified, but the ugly truth is they are putting low time pilots in those jobs so they can dangle the flying carrot and get away with paying (sometimes less than) minimum wage.

. That's the way it is and has always been in the real world. Unless you can afford to open a company and buy your own plane than this is your option. Is it "fair". Absolutely it isn't. Is it reality..... Absolutely.

But the only way past it is to get past it. It builds character and that makes it a good thing imo.


All the best in your search and future aviation endeavors. I truely do mean it. It's a hard road and noone skips the line. I respect everyone that even gets through the commitment required to get a CPL/MULTI/IFR/IATRA.

That's incorrect. The last 10 years people have absolutely gotten flying jobs that involved flying from day 1. Instructing is the common example there, but there have been 703 and 704 jobs that hire new low time pilots to actually fly. Wild, I know.
Are there still outfits that demand you go the ramp route? Yes, and the pilots who don't get a job at the abovementioned companies might still take the ramp route.

I am guessing the folks who stalled a CRJ into the ground at YYZ and the crew who tried to takeoff from a taxiway in MCO never worked a moment on the ramp.

Yes I would bet serious money the connection is real.

[rookiepilot]

I know I'm the poster here and I'll get called entitled but when I consulted a former instructor of mine (Retired from AC), that's what I was told as well. You spend 4-5 years working on a license + possibly a degree depending on where you study and you get put on ramp loading bags for 2 years. Does working a job like that build character? Absolutely, I won't deny that, I'm working right now in a completely unrelated field while I save up for instructing or have something open. I know I'm young and I have much to learn, but I would say spending the last 5 years in school concurrently doing a degree and flight training builds character as well. I just don't agree that it's a route that needs to exist, it's a means of acquiring cheap labor.

Well said.

Disagree, and anyone who says differently has never put their own money and reputation on the line to actually build something.

School of any kind does not build an ounce of character IMO, nor qualify someone to take serious responsibility in any field right out of the gate.

Only long apprenticeships do so.

Sorry for hard truth, is what it is.