Career Advice

[jw1]

I know I'm the poster here and I'll get called entitled but when I consulted a former instructor of mine (Retired from AC), that's what I was told as well. You spend 4-5 years working on a license + possibly a degree depending on where you study and you get put on ramp loading bags for 2 years. Does working a job like that build character? Absolutely, I won't deny that, I'm working right now in a completely unrelated field while I save up for instructing or have something open. I know I'm young and I have much to learn, but I would say spending the last 5 years in school concurrently doing a degree and flight training builds character as well. I just don't agree that it's a route that needs to exist, it's a means of acquiring cheap labor.

Well said.

Disagree, and anyone who says differently has never put their own money and reputation on the line to actually build something.

School of any kind does not build an ounce of character IMO, nor qualify someone to take serious responsibility in any field right out of the gate.

Only long apprenticeships do so.

Sorry for hard truth, is what it is.

I guess one of the points I'm trying to make here is that I don't believe the operators are doing this solely to create pilots with character. They're doing it because if it weren't for the young pilot with the dream of flying, no one in their right mind would move to a town of less than 500 to make $17.20 an hour. As someone said before, by dangling the flying carrot they get away with underpaid labor and poor working conditions. I am surprised that the mainline union workers who are continually advocating for better working conditions think that the junior guys should suffer on their way up because they did.

[digits_]

I am guessing the folks who stalled a CRJ into the ground at YYZ and the crew who tried to takeoff from a taxiway in MCO never worked a moment on the ramp.

Yes I would bet serious money the connection is real.

You're claiming that wether or not the captain worked the ramp 18 (!!!) years ago affected his CRJ flying skills in this accident?

Disagree, and anyone who says differently has never put their own money and reputation on the line to actually build something.

Wrong. And pretty weak strategy with the 'and anyone who says differently' crap.

School of any kind does not build an ounce of character IMO, nor qualify someone to take serious responsibility in any field right out of the gate.
[...]
Sorry for hard truth, is what it is.

It's not a hard truth, and it is not what it is.
17% of college students runs their own business in the US: https://www.universityworldnews.com/pos ... 6103534803
With around 11% in Austrlia and 10% in the UK.

Only long apprenticeships do so.

Irrelevant, working on the ramp is not an apprenticeship.

[rookiepilot]

I am guessing the folks who stalled a CRJ into the ground at YYZ and the crew who tried to takeoff from a taxiway in MCO never worked a moment on the ramp.

Yes I would bet serious money the connection is real.

You're claiming that wether or not the captain worked the ramp 18 (!!!) years ago affected his CRJ flying skills in this accident?

Disagree, and anyone who says differently has never put their own money and reputation on the line to actually build something.

Wrong. And pretty weak strategy with the 'and anyone who says differently' crap.

School of any kind does not build an ounce of character IMO, nor qualify someone to take serious responsibility in any field right out of the gate.
[...]
Sorry for hard truth, is what it is.

It's not a hard truth, and it is not what it is.
17% of college students runs their own business in the US: https://www.universityworldnews.com/pos ... 6103534803
With around 11% in Austrlia and 10% in the UK.

Only long apprenticeships do so.

Irrelevant, working on the ramp is not an apprenticeship.

Sure is. Points totally , utterly missed.

There are reasons electricians with their papers aren’t allowed to work on their own straightaway too.

Aviation is no different than any other profession.

You do what you want digits.

With my money if I started a 703 or whatever, there is zero chance I would ever let someone I hired touch one of my aircraft without watching them for awhile in a role where they couldn’t kill themselves, others, or wreck an airplane.

The whining on this site about how the people who take real risk run their operations is unbelievable.

Don’t like it? Don’t apply. And don’t whine.

[digits_]

There are reasons electricians with their papers aren’t allowed to work on their own straightaway too.

Aviation is no different than any other profession.

That would encourage having pilots start out as an FO on a multi crew aircraft (something like an CRJ perhaps?) instead of working by themselves as PICs with paying pax on something like a C206, which is common at most outfits that dangle ramp-carrots?

[jw1]

Sure is. Points totally , utterly missed.

There are reasons electricians with their papers aren’t allowed to work on their own straightaway too.

Aviation is no different than any other profession.

[/quote]

How is this the same as any other profession? Do doctors or nurses start out as unit clerks for two years to see if they can handle the stress of working in a hospital, or are they placed in internships or residencies under more experienced professionals, where they still have the opportunity to make critical decisions or potentially save/end someone's life? I can't think of many other professions where you spend four years in school only to end up in a completely unrelated role unless it's by choice.

[digits_]

With my money if I started a 703 or whatever, there is zero chance I would ever let someone I hired touch one of my aircraft without watching them for awhile in a role where they couldn’t kill themselves, others, or wreck an airplane.

Right, and today, do you know who you would get? Pilots that -for whatever reason- are unable to get hired somewhere else. Pilots with no other options. Desperate people.

Whereas your competitors who do put pilots in an airplane, will have their pick of the litter. They'll likely be able to pick engineers who have/are running their own business, or farm kids that could build a flying contraption with an old john deere engine and some duct tape. Or an IT guy that will rebuild their website or admin system in between flights.

But you would absolutely get candidates, and likely a few that would turn out to be good pilots, but that will have nothing to do with their ability to drive a forklift or load bags.

The whining on this site about how the people who take real risk run their operations is unbelievable.

Don’t like it? Don’t apply. And don’t whine.

The only one coming close to whining is you. A pilot is asking for advice and we're giving him advice, while also disputing some claims that the ramp route is somehow required either to find a job or to build character. Neither of those things are true. You could argue it's an option, but it is most certainly not required. That's a fact that a large group on this forum can testify to.

[goldeneagle]

I can't think of many other professions where you spend four years in school only to end up in a completely unrelated role unless it's by choice.

Except one doesn't spend 4 years in school to get a CPL, heck I had mine before I graduated from high school.

Flying is very much like the trades, get the entry level ticket, then spend 4 years in the lower echelons of the industry as an 'apprentice', working your way up to the qualifications required for the 'red seal' (they call it ATPL in aviation) by gaining experience.

[digits_]

I can't think of many other professions where you spend four years in school only to end up in a completely unrelated role unless it's by choice.

Except one doesn't spend 4 years in school to get a CPL, heck I had mine before I graduated from high school.

Flying is very much like the trades, get the entry level ticket, then spend 4 years in the lower echelons of the industry as an 'apprentice', working your way up to the qualifications required for the 'red seal' (they call it ATPL in aviation) by gaining experience.

The lower echelons which include actual flying. 702 and 703 operations.

[Tbayer2021]

I can't think of many other professions where you spend four years in school only to end up in a completely unrelated role unless it's by choice.

Except one doesn't spend 4 years in school to get a CPL, heck I had mine before I graduated from high school.

Flying is very much like the trades, get the entry level ticket, then spend 4 years in the lower echelons of the industry as an 'apprentice', working your way up to the qualifications required for the 'red seal' (they call it ATPL in aviation) by gaining experience.

Sure, but working your way up is only done by acquiring flight hours, interestingly enough TC never asks about ramp experience when applying for licenses and type ratings. I cannot think of a time throughout my career where I can point to and say that I'd have been better off with some ramp experience. I've never come across another pilot pointing to his ramp tenure as having shaped him as a pilot.

I'll say it again. It is simply cheap labour for operators who cannot convince locals to take on the job. Funny how so many of those operators that used to demand pilots start on the ramp, suddenly have no problem putting them straight in the cockpit.

[rookiepilot]

With my money if I started a 703 or whatever, there is zero chance I would ever let someone I hired touch one of my aircraft without watching them for awhile in a role where they couldn’t kill themselves, others, or wreck an airplane.

Right, and today, do you know who you would get? Pilots that -for whatever reason- are unable to get hired somewhere else. Pilots with no other options. Desperate people.

Whereas your competitors who do put pilots in an airplane, will have their pick of the litter. They'll likely be able to pick engineers who have/are running their own business, or farm kids that could build a flying contraption with an old john deere engine and some duct tape. Or an IT guy that will rebuild their website or admin system in between flights.

But you would absolutely get candidates, and likely a few that would turn out to be good pilots, but that will have nothing to do with their ability to drive a forklift or load bags.

The whining on this site about how the people who take real risk run their operations is unbelievable.

Don’t like it? Don’t apply. And don’t whine.

The only one coming close to whining is you. A pilot is asking for advice and we're giving him advice, while also disputing some claims that the ramp route is somehow required either to find a job or to build character. Neither of those things are true. You could argue it's an option, but it is most certainly not required. That's a fact that a large group on this forum can testify to.

Start your own operation, risking millions of dollars, then your opinion would be worth something to others who have done so on who and how they hire.

Employees , especially new employees, don’t get an opinion. Haven’t earned one.

[rookiepilot]

I can't think of many other professions where you spend four years in school only to end up in a completely unrelated role unless it's by choice.

Except one doesn't spend 4 years in school to get a CPL, heck I had mine before I graduated from high school.

Flying is very much like the trades, get the entry level ticket, then spend 4 years in the lower echelons of the industry as an 'apprentice', working your way up to the qualifications required for the 'red seal' (they call it ATPL in aviation) by gaining experience.

Sure, but working your way up is only done by acquiring flight hours, interestingly enough TC never asks about ramp experience when applying for licenses and type ratings. I cannot think of a time throughout my career where I can point to and say that I'd have been better off with some ramp experience. I've never come across another pilot pointing to his ramp tenure as having shaped him as a pilot.

I'll say it again. It is simply cheap labour for operators who cannot convince locals to take on the job. Funny how so many of those operators that used to demand pilots start on the ramp, suddenly have no problem putting them straight in the cockpit.

If i was running an operation, risking my own money and reputation, I could not give a crap what TC thinks who is or isn’t a good pilot — at least compared to my own eyes and the opinions of my peers — those also running operations.

[rookiepilot]

I can't think of many other professions where you spend four years in school only to end up in a completely unrelated role unless it's by choice.

Except one doesn't spend 4 years in school to get a CPL, heck I had mine before I graduated from high school.

Flying is very much like the trades, get the entry level ticket, then spend 4 years in the lower echelons of the industry as an 'apprentice', working your way up to the qualifications required for the 'red seal' (they call it ATPL in aviation) by gaining experience.

Someone gets it. A nephew of mine just got his apprenticeship as an electrician. He isn’t handling high voltage wires. He is handing tools to the real electrician. And hopefully listening a lot.

Working on the ramp isn’t working on the ramp, from my completely outside POV. Its an opportunity to listen a lot before putting million dollar equipment and lives at risk , from those who actually know what they are doing.

Graduating school means to me earning a licence to learn. Nothing more. In any profession!

[digits_]

With my money if I started a 703 or whatever, there is zero chance I would ever let someone I hired touch one of my aircraft without watching them for awhile in a role where they couldn’t kill themselves, others, or wreck an airplane.

Right, and today, do you know who you would get? Pilots that -for whatever reason- are unable to get hired somewhere else. Pilots with no other options. Desperate people.

Whereas your competitors who do put pilots in an airplane, will have their pick of the litter. They'll likely be able to pick engineers who have/are running their own business, or farm kids that could build a flying contraption with an old john deere engine and some duct tape. Or an IT guy that will rebuild their website or admin system in between flights.

But you would absolutely get candidates, and likely a few that would turn out to be good pilots, but that will have nothing to do with their ability to drive a forklift or load bags.

The whining on this site about how the people who take real risk run their operations is unbelievable.

Don’t like it? Don’t apply. And don’t whine.

The only one coming close to whining is you. A pilot is asking for advice and we're giving him advice, while also disputing some claims that the ramp route is somehow required either to find a job or to build character. Neither of those things are true. You could argue it's an option, but it is most certainly not required. That's a fact that a large group on this forum can testify to.

Start your own operation, risking millions of dollars, then your opinion would be worth something to others who have done so on who and how they hire.

Employees , especially new employees, don’t get an opinion. Haven’t earned one.

Lol. Good luck finding employees without opinions.

Did you start your own operation risking millions of dollars? If not, why share your opinion if you deem it worthless anyway?

[rookiepilot]

Right, and today, do you know who you would get? Pilots that -for whatever reason- are unable to get hired somewhere else. Pilots with no other options. Desperate people.

Whereas your competitors who do put pilots in an airplane, will have their pick of the litter. They'll likely be able to pick engineers who have/are running their own business, or farm kids that could build a flying contraption with an old john deere engine and some duct tape. Or an IT guy that will rebuild their website or admin system in between flights.

But you would absolutely get candidates, and likely a few that would turn out to be good pilots, but that will have nothing to do with their ability to drive a forklift or load bags.



The only one coming close to whining is you. A pilot is asking for advice and we're giving him advice, while also disputing some claims that the ramp route is somehow required either to find a job or to build character. Neither of those things are true. You could argue it's an option, but it is most certainly not required. That's a fact that a large group on this forum can testify to.

Start your own operation, risking millions of dollars, then your opinion would be worth something to others who have done so on who and how they hire.

Employees , especially new employees, don’t get an opinion. Haven’t earned one.

Lol. Good luck finding employees without opinions.

Did you start your own operation risking millions of dollars? If not, why share your opinion if you deem it worthless anyway?

In another field?

Yes.

And there are a million pilots.

BTW.

[digits_]

Working on the ramp isn’t working on the ramp, from my completely outside POV. Its an opportunity to listen a lot before putting million dollar equipment and lives at risk , from those who actually know what they are doing.

Is it safe to say this can be translated as "I don't know what I'm talking about, but..." ?

Working the ramp is absolutely just that: working the ramp.
You unload trailers and carts with bags and/or freight, and you put it in the plane. Sometimes it's important not to load all the heavy stuff in the tail, or in the front. Except if you're in a hurry, then it doesn't matter because "we've seen worse".
You might have to fuel airplanes. You know, that stuff that every PPL student knows how to do.
You might get to groom or wash planes. That will teach you how to land in a crosswind for sure.
Perhaps you get to drive a forklift. Completely irrelevant on how to operate an aircraft.

The whole ramp experience can be used by an employer as a selection tool, in which case it shouldn't take 2 years before they magically figure out an employee isn't suited to fly. It is however 99% useless to teach pilots on how to be safe pilots. And the other 1% can be taught during line indoc. If you're defending it as a learning tool you are just completely wrong.

In reality, it's cheap labor. Nothing more.

[goldeneagle]

Did you start your own operation risking millions of dollars? If not, why share your opinion if you deem it worthless anyway?

Been there, done that.

FYI, doesn't take millions of dollars to start a company in aviation. Not sure about prices today, but back when we went down this road, the first decent airframe could be had for about a quarter of that. Over the 19 years I was involved, put about 1500 hours on that airframe myself, the rest was folks working for us. It was my 'part time, hobby job' for years after I quit flying full time, and as the CP I was indeed the one who hired, and trained, all the staff.

The real reason I'm no longer involved in day to day operations, medical issue took my license back in 2019, and I have not tried to get it back, so handed everything off to other folks. If I cant fly the airplanes anymore, rather spend my time focussing on the businesses I can still operate, and leave my involvement in that one to just some of the necessary administrative stuff.

But I can say this, over the years I was the CP for the outfit, at least a dozen folks started with us as 250 to 300 hour wonders, and left with an ATPL in the pocket. So yes, when it comes to how hiring works at the bottom end of the industry, I do know a bit about it, and have some experience in the process. And I do find it interesting, not much where rookie and I agree, he seems to think anybody that went to school is dumb as a post, but on this subject we seem to be on the same page.

[digits_]

So yes, when it comes to how hiring works at the bottom end of the industry, I do know a bit about it, and have some experience in the process. And I do find it interesting, not much where rookie and I agree, he seems to think anybody that went to school is dumb as a post, but on this subject we seem to be on the same page.

Ok, I'm curious now. What was your reason to put pilots in a non flying ramp job? How long did you keep them in there before you offered them an airplane seat?

[rookiepilot]

Did you start your own operation risking millions of dollars? If not, why share your opinion if you deem it worthless anyway?

Been there, done that.

FYI, doesn't take millions of dollars to start a company in aviation. Not sure about prices today, but back when we went down this road, the first decent airframe could be had for about a quarter of that. Over the 19 years I was involved, put about 1500 hours on that airframe myself, the rest was folks working for us. It was my 'part time, hobby job' for years after I quit flying full time, and as the CP I was indeed the one who hired, and trained, all the staff.

The real reason I'm no longer involved in day to day operations, medical issue took my license back in 2019, and I have not tried to get it back, so handed everything off to other folks. If I cant fly the airplanes anymore, rather spend my time focussing on the businesses I can still operate, and leave my involvement in that one to just some of the necessary administrative stuff.

But I can say this, over the years I was the CP for the outfit, at least a dozen folks started with us as 250 to 300 hour wonders, and left with an ATPL in the pocket. So yes, when it comes to how hiring works at the bottom end of the industry, I do know a bit about it, and have some experience in the process. And I do find it interesting, not much where rookie and I agree, he seems to think anybody that went to school is dumb as a post, but on this subject we seem to be on the same page.

Schools are not what they once were.

Look at American Math and Reading scores in any grade.

And the garbage pro - this and that indoctrination taught in universities today.

Yeah — dumb as rocks until proven otherwise.

[goldeneagle]

So yes, when it comes to how hiring works at the bottom end of the industry, I do know a bit about it, and have some experience in the process. And I do find it interesting, not much where rookie and I agree, he seems to think anybody that went to school is dumb as a post, but on this subject we seem to be on the same page.

Ok, I'm curious now. What was your reason to put pilots in a non flying ramp job? How long did you keep them in there before you offered them an airplane seat?

And just where did I say I put pilots in a non flying position ?

Our operation was only 2 airplanes, didn't justify having full time staff on the ramp, but, that's not to say we didn't hire off the ramp. For the entry level position, more often than not, when it needed to be filled on short notice, that guy driving the fuel truck for the local fbo was a low time cpl looking for that elusive first flying job. Some folks figured it out, with a bare cpl and 250 in the book, best tack to getting that first job is to make contacts at the airport, and driving the fuel truck there gets one on a first name basis with most of the folks who do the hiring.

For larger 702/703 outfits that do have a need for staff on the ramp, it's a way to have a 'hot spare' pilot on board, so when inevitably one of the folks announces 'leaving tomorrow' to go to larger equipment, no need to go sifting the resume pile and start doing interviews etc, just take the one on the ramp and put in the seat. Now the selection process for a new hire can be done at a more leisurely rate as time allows. And in a well planned operation, during that time in a non flying position, can slot them in for things like aircraft ground class while others are doing annual renewals, makes for a much more efficient way of managing time.

I get it, you dont like that attitude, but, like rookie I will state, feel free to put up the bucks and start your own operation, do it differently.

[rookiepilot]

He doesn’t have the guts. I did. I’m entitled to say whatever I want. I earned that right. If you haven’t you should know it and STFU.

Too many entry level experience People want instant big bucks, never get their hands dirty, and none of the ultimate responsibility.

I’m in my late 50’s. Paid my dues and then some.

This entitled attitude really pisses me off.

Can’t ever buy respect with Mommy and Daddy’s money Digits.

[Old fella]

Gonna be cruising past three quarters of a century soonest. Two very important life lessons as I see it and experience has proven that:

1. As the years run too short and the days too fast, some point along the way you WILL BE taken advantage of by a situation or person.

2. Look out for number ONE, nobody else WILL.

[piperdriver]

He doesn’t have the guts. I did. I’m entitled to say whatever I want. I earned that right. If you haven’t you should know it and STFU.

Too many entry level experience People want instant big bucks, never get their hands dirty, and none of the ultimate responsibility.

I’m in my late 50’s. Paid my dues and then some.

This entitled attitude really pisses me off.

Can’t ever buy respect with Mommy and Daddy’s money Digits.

Its easy to be a tough guy on an anonymous forum. Take it down a notch, someone has an opinion different from yours so you resort to telling them to "STFU." Extremely unprofessional behavior.

[digits_]

So yes, when it comes to how hiring works at the bottom end of the industry, I do know a bit about it, and have some experience in the process. And I do find it interesting, not much where rookie and I agree, he seems to think anybody that went to school is dumb as a post, but on this subject we seem to be on the same page.

Ok, I'm curious now. What was your reason to put pilots in a non flying ramp job? How long did you keep them in there before you offered them an airplane seat?

And just where did I say I put pilots in a non flying position ?

You didn't, but since you were defending hiring pilots for non flying positions and claimed you had experience in the process, it seemed implied that you were putting pilots in non flying positions.

My apologies if that's not the case. But since it was the topic of discussion, I hope you can understand why I made that assumption.

Our operation was only 2 airplanes, didn't justify having full time staff on the ramp, but, that's not to say we didn't hire off the ramp. For the entry level position, more often than not, when it needed to be filled on short notice, that guy driving the fuel truck for the local fbo was a low time cpl looking for that elusive first flying job. Some folks figured it out, with a bare cpl and 250 in the book, best tack to getting that first job is to make contacts at the airport, and driving the fuel truck there gets one on a first name basis with most of the folks who do the hiring.

This is a completely different situation. This is a pilot who chooses to work a non flying position without the dangling carrot of a flying position. One needs work, and if you're hoping to fly planes one day, then fuelling planes would be a better choice than flipping burgers or working at Walmart. It's also a job that is likely paid market wages. No problems with this whatsoever.

For larger 702/703 outfits that do have a need for staff on the ramp, it's a way to have a 'hot spare' pilot on board, so when inevitably one of the folks announces 'leaving tomorrow' to go to larger equipment, no need to go sifting the resume pile and start doing interviews etc, just take the one on the ramp and put in the seat. Now the selection process for a new hire can be done at a more leisurely rate as time allows. And in a well planned operation, during that time in a non flying position, can slot them in for things like aircraft ground class while others are doing annual renewals, makes for a much more efficient way of managing time.

That sound nice and fair in theory, but in reality I have never seen it work that way. It doesn't take long for the operator to realize it's still easier and quicker to hire a typerated pilot instead of training the ramp guy, and then also needing to find a new rampie.

I get it, you dont like that attitude, but, like rookie I will state, feel free to put up the bucks and start your own operation, do it differently.

It is not about not liking the attitude. It's about warning young pilots about the abuse and deceit that goes hand in hand with those pilot-in-waiting schemes.

In those jobs, generally, this is how it goes:
What the candidate is being told in the interview: "It's a ramp job, but when there's a spot available, we'll upgrade from the ramp"
What the candidate thinks after doing research: "They lose about one pilot a month, and I would be the third rampie in line. So after about 3 months, maybe 4, I will be flying"
How it turns out: "Damn, it's been 18 months. 20 pilot have left, and we've filled their spots with 19 off the street hires and only 1 ramp guy got upgraded"

That's the situation I want to warn people about. I don't know a single pilot where the ramp to flight line happened as initially discussed.

[rookiepilot]

In those jobs, generally, this is how it goes:
What the candidate is being told in the interview: "It's a ramp job, but when there's a spot available, we'll upgrade from the ramp"
What the candidate thinks after doing research: "They lose about one pilot a month, and I would be the third rampie in line. So after about 3 months, maybe 4, I will be flying"
How it turns out: "Damn, it's been 18 months. 20 pilot have left, and we've filled their spots with 19 off the street hires and only 1 ramp guy got upgraded"

That's the situation I want to warn people about. I don't know a single pilot where the ramp to flight line happened as initially discussed.

That is quite a claim — generally how it goes someone is sitting 18 months while 19 people are hired off the street in front of them.

Prove it. Names, dates, places, companies. Should be able to quote at least 5 if its true.

I call BS.

[rookiepilot]

Well said.

Disagree, and anyone who says differently has never put their own money and reputation on the line to actually build something.

School of any kind does not build an ounce of character IMO, nor qualify someone to take serious responsibility in any field right out of the gate.

Only long apprenticeships do so.

Sorry for hard truth, is what it is.

I guess one of the points I'm trying to make here is that I don't believe the operators are doing this solely to create pilots with character. They're doing it because if it weren't for the young pilot with the dream of flying, no one in their right mind would move to a town of less than 500 to make $17.20 an hour. As someone said before, by dangling the flying carrot they get away with underpaid labor and poor working conditions. I am surprised that the mainline union workers who are continually advocating for better working conditions think that the junior guys should suffer on their way up because they did.

You acknowledged, correctly, in your first post hiring is slow.

You haven't done a road trip and slept in your car, which reading a dozen threads would tell you to do.

With that observation in mind, and reading the above, exactly what are your expectations here?

Do you think you as a brand new CPL hold any power in the relationship whatsoever?

Lastly, who paid for your training, you or your parents? I am genuinely curious.