Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[Flyboy736]

Ok smart guy, you tell me why AC ALPA MEC would want intervening status in a Jazz ALPA unfair labour practice challenge, ie; what do you have to lose if Jazz ALPA proposal were instituted?
It was originally a four party discussion to attempt some kind of remedy and now your union has sought legal counsel to intervene, gee, I wonder what that means! Intervene means, they are not part of the ULP but they will be affected if they don’t!
Btw, just spitballing, I have no inside information but ask yourself why they feel the need to do this and I can come up with one reason! Maybe you have something I didn’t think of.

Makes sense ACA MEC wants to be involved, the affected jazz pilots are AC pilots now, whom they represent, and of course the rest of the pilots

100% Correct, JAZZ threw down 3 offer.

my guess would be a 1 time payment without anything else
second option would be a reinstation of the seniority ( highly doubt it )
and third is probably a mix where every pilot affected would have a different pay progression anniversary wich wouldn't affect anyone else.

When you say Jazz threw down 3 offers what are you referring to? Was this Jazz MEC or Jazz management?

Another possibility is also YOS for pay as to when the Jazz guys should have flowed over (while seniority remains the same)
For the 2022 year they had until Feb 2023 to correct the violation and for the 2023 year they had until Feb 2024 to correct the flow violation. In theory those affected by the grievance could show a hire date for pay as Feb 28

[Man_in_the_sky]

It would be from Jazz MEC, unconfirmed off course

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Based on what? How can you be so sure that it wasn't Jazz who was so desperate to hang onto pilots to keep the operation afloat? AC has shown time and time again that they don't care about Jazz or their staffing issues. They'd have no problem taking all the pilots they could from Jazz, leaving them to staff the mess left behind. They've already shown they have no problem seeking alternative providers (PAL) when Jazz can't keep their head above water.

AC ALPA is seeking intervention because it's likely that Jazz MEC was trying to propose something to do with the AC pilot seniority list. Pretty standard procedure to protect their due paying membership's seniority list.

Typical ex Jazz pilots!
Frankly who stopped the flow is irrelevant because it wasn’t the Jazz pilots who did it, the corporations who AGREED to the terms did it, whether they agreed together or Jazz went to AC begging doesn’t matter!
The other part of the CIRB challenge, is that AC interfered with our collective bargaining, and yes we agreed together the last LOU but CR made sure that it was without precedence and the challenge was filed the same day. AC had no right as a third party to not accept our freely negotiated agreement and then present us with a lesser agreement. They pay the bills and if they had a problem with what Jazz was offering, they should have stepped in before Jazz and Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement in place!
Next, PAL is also a violation of what was bargained in good faith, the use the fact Jazz couldn’t fulfill their obligations when AC created the environment in which we couldn’t fulfill our obligations is a bit disingenuous and outright plain dirty!
AC ALPA is seeking intervener status because they realize the possibility of the challenge placing Jazz pilots on your seniority list and guess what, your language about common employer BOTL won’t stand up because it is contradicting labour law regarding merged list!
This won’t die no matter how you close your eyes and hope it does!

You are one delusional dude.

Common employer is for big boys like two pilot groups that fly Boeings & Airbuses. Ie Air Canada & Canadian or United & Continental.

Keep smoking the good stuff!

[truedude]

Based on what? How can you be so sure that it wasn't Jazz who was so desperate to hang onto pilots to keep the operation afloat? AC has shown time and time again that they don't care about Jazz or their staffing issues. They'd have no problem taking all the pilots they could from Jazz, leaving them to staff the mess left behind. They've already shown they have no problem seeking alternative providers (PAL) when Jazz can't keep their head above water.

AC ALPA is seeking intervention because it's likely that Jazz MEC was trying to propose something to do with the AC pilot seniority list. Pretty standard procedure to protect their due paying membership's seniority list.

Typical ex Jazz pilots!
Frankly who stopped the flow is irrelevant because it wasn’t the Jazz pilots who did it, the corporations who AGREED to the terms did it, whether they agreed together or Jazz went to AC begging doesn’t matter!
The other part of the CIRB challenge, is that AC interfered with our collective bargaining, and yes we agreed together the last LOU but CR made sure that it was without precedence and the challenge was filed the same day. AC had no right as a third party to not accept our freely negotiated agreement and then present us with a lesser agreement. They pay the bills and if they had a problem with what Jazz was offering, they should have stepped in before Jazz and Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement in place!
Next, PAL is also a violation of what was bargained in good faith, the use the fact Jazz couldn’t fulfill their obligations when AC created the environment in which we couldn’t fulfill our obligations is a bit disingenuous and outright plain dirty!
AC ALPA is seeking intervener status because they realize the possibility of the challenge placing Jazz pilots on your seniority list and guess what, your language about common employer BOTL won’t stand up because it is contradicting labour law regarding merged list!
This won’t die no matter how you close your eyes and hope it does!

You are one delusional dude.

Common employer is for big boys like two pilot groups that fly Boeings & Airbuses. Ie Air Canada & Canadian or United & Continental.

Keep smoking the good stuff!

No, you are the one wrong here. That isn't how the law is written or interpreted.

[cdnavater]

Based on what? How can you be so sure that it wasn't Jazz who was so desperate to hang onto pilots to keep the operation afloat? AC has shown time and time again that they don't care about Jazz or their staffing issues. They'd have no problem taking all the pilots they could from Jazz, leaving them to staff the mess left behind. They've already shown they have no problem seeking alternative providers (PAL) when Jazz can't keep their head above water.

AC ALPA is seeking intervention because it's likely that Jazz MEC was trying to propose something to do with the AC pilot seniority list. Pretty standard procedure to protect their due paying membership's seniority list.

Typical ex Jazz pilots!
Frankly who stopped the flow is irrelevant because it wasn’t the Jazz pilots who did it, the corporations who AGREED to the terms did it, whether they agreed together or Jazz went to AC begging doesn’t matter!
The other part of the CIRB challenge, is that AC interfered with our collective bargaining, and yes we agreed together the last LOU but CR made sure that it was without precedence and the challenge was filed the same day. AC had no right as a third party to not accept our freely negotiated agreement and then present us with a lesser agreement. They pay the bills and if they had a problem with what Jazz was offering, they should have stepped in before Jazz and Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement in place!
Next, PAL is also a violation of what was bargained in good faith, the use the fact Jazz couldn’t fulfill their obligations when AC created the environment in which we couldn’t fulfill our obligations is a bit disingenuous and outright plain dirty!
AC ALPA is seeking intervener status because they realize the possibility of the challenge placing Jazz pilots on your seniority list and guess what, your language about common employer BOTL won’t stand up because it is contradicting labour law regarding merged list!
This won’t die no matter how you close your eyes and hope it does!

You are one delusional dude.

Common employer is for big boys like two pilot groups that fly Boeings & Airbuses. Ie Air Canada & Canadian or United & Continental.

Keep smoking the good stuff!

You should do some reading, size of the tools has nothing to do with common employer, which the CIRB has extraordinary powers and can declare this.
The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!
Maybe you aren’t aware but Jazz has been quietly moving offices to the same buildings owned or leased by AC, rumour only so far but the next time you go to CAE, if you see that they broke ground to add on, it’s to move Jazz training to the AC side.
One of us might be delusional, I’m fairly certain it’s not me, time will tell I guess there big boy, @#$! that was funny! Big boys, I’m still laughing!
Maybe someday I can grow up and fly a real airplane, you know like a big boy, fu cken astronauts, that’s better than the pilots pilots want to be!

[Man_in_the_sky]

Sky regional has been training, not only on the AC side, but INSIDE AC sims! let's start a rumour about it while we're at it

[Man_in_the_sky]

Typical ex Jazz pilots!
Frankly who stopped the flow is irrelevant because it wasn’t the Jazz pilots who did it, the corporations who AGREED to the terms did it, whether they agreed together or Jazz went to AC begging doesn’t matter!
The other part of the CIRB challenge, is that AC interfered with our collective bargaining, and yes we agreed together the last LOU but CR made sure that it was without precedence and the challenge was filed the same day. AC had no right as a third party to not accept our freely negotiated agreement and then present us with a lesser agreement. They pay the bills and if they had a problem with what Jazz was offering, they should have stepped in before Jazz and Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement in place!
Next, PAL is also a violation of what was bargained in good faith, the use the fact Jazz couldn’t fulfill their obligations when AC created the environment in which we couldn’t fulfill our obligations is a bit disingenuous and outright plain dirty!
AC ALPA is seeking intervener status because they realize the possibility of the challenge placing Jazz pilots on your seniority list and guess what, your language about common employer BOTL won’t stand up because it is contradicting labour law regarding merged list!
This won’t die no matter how you close your eyes and hope it does!

You are one delusional dude.

Common employer is for big boys like two pilot groups that fly Boeings & Airbuses. Ie Air Canada & Canadian or United & Continental.

Keep smoking the good stuff!

You should do some reading, size of the tools has nothing to do with common employer, which the CIRB has extraordinary powers and can declare this.
The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!
Maybe you aren’t aware but Jazz has been quietly moving offices to the same buildings owned or leased by AC, rumour only so far but the next time you go to CAE, if you see that they broke ground to add on, it’s to move Jazz training to the AC side.
One of us might be delusional, I’m fairly certain it’s not me, time will tell I guess there big boy, @#$! that was funny! Big boys, I’m still laughing!
Maybe someday I can grow up and fly a real airplane, you know like a big boy, fu cken astronauts, that’s better than the pilots pilots want to be!

Key word in that whole thing is Rumour!

Nothing is filed and by the time it gets filed, heard and there is a decision, we might have our 350s

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

You are one delusional dude.

Common employer is for big boys like two pilot groups that fly Boeings & Airbuses. Ie Air Canada & Canadian or United & Continental.

Keep smoking the good stuff!

You should do some reading, size of the tools has nothing to do with common employer, which the CIRB has extraordinary powers and can declare this.
The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!
Maybe you aren’t aware but Jazz has been quietly moving offices to the same buildings owned or leased by AC, rumour only so far but the next time you go to CAE, if you see that they broke ground to add on, it’s to move Jazz training to the AC side.
One of us might be delusional, I’m fairly certain it’s not me, time will tell I guess there big boy, @#$! that was funny! Big boys, I’m still laughing!
Maybe someday I can grow up and fly a real airplane, you know like a big boy, fu cken astronauts, that’s better than the pilots pilots want to be!

Key word in that whole thing is Rumour!

Nothing is filed and by the time it gets filed, heard and there is a decision, we might have our 350s

Just in time for senior Q400 pilots to fly them!

[Man_in_the_sky]

You should do some reading, size of the tools has nothing to do with common employer, which the CIRB has extraordinary powers and can declare this.
The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!
Maybe you aren’t aware but Jazz has been quietly moving offices to the same buildings owned or leased by AC, rumour only so far but the next time you go to CAE, if you see that they broke ground to add on, it’s to move Jazz training to the AC side.
One of us might be delusional, I’m fairly certain it’s not me, time will tell I guess there big boy, @#$! that was funny! Big boys, I’m still laughing!
Maybe someday I can grow up and fly a real airplane, you know like a big boy, fu cken astronauts, that’s better than the pilots pilots want to be!

Key word in that whole thing is Rumour!

Nothing is filed and by the time it gets filed, heard and there is a decision, we might have our 350s

Just in time for senior Q400 pilots to fly them!

their YTZ experience will really weight when crossing with a 4 pilot crew in Asia !

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't diminish anyone. it just doesn't make sense to ''suddenly'' fly a wide body, deal with 2-2 extra pilots and 14 extra FA ... nothing that can't be learnt but, let's be honest here

[737Drver]

Wow!

Exciting times for Jazz pilots.

Straight from Q400 Captain to B777 Skipper. I knew I should have gone to Jazz

[truedude]

You are one delusional dude.

Common employer is for big boys like two pilot groups that fly Boeings & Airbuses. Ie Air Canada & Canadian or United & Continental.

Keep smoking the good stuff!

You should do some reading, size of the tools has nothing to do with common employer, which the CIRB has extraordinary powers and can declare this.
The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!
Maybe you aren’t aware but Jazz has been quietly moving offices to the same buildings owned or leased by AC, rumour only so far but the next time you go to CAE, if you see that they broke ground to add on, it’s to move Jazz training to the AC side.
One of us might be delusional, I’m fairly certain it’s not me, time will tell I guess there big boy, @#$! that was funny! Big boys, I’m still laughing!
Maybe someday I can grow up and fly a real airplane, you know like a big boy, fu cken astronauts, that’s better than the pilots pilots want to be!

Key word in that whole thing is Rumour!

Nothing is filed and by the time it gets filed, heard and there is a decision, we might have our 350s

What isnt a rumor is that the sim contract renewal for Jazz is being negotiated and signed by AC, not Jazz. So tell me again, how are we separate companies?

And AC tried multiple times to run away from the CIRB proceedings, only to he told that their fingerprints were all over the Jazz pilots most recent contract and failure to comply with flow.

[Bede]

The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!

Can you point out the events and how they fit into the applicable case law? Honest question.

[BillytheKid]

So I should try to go to Jazz and then be able to skip Air Canada pilots in seniority?

[PeakLeverage]

Jazz getting common employer is the funniest April Fool's joke ever.

Well done!

[rudder]

Jazz getting common employer is the funniest April Fool's joke ever.

Well done!

Unless I am mistaken, common ownership and control is a prerequisite for consideration for a common employer petition. So yes - this must indeed be an April Fools Day joke.

Also, a petition must be filed with the CIRB. And no - that filing is neither privileged nor confidential although some evidence or testimony adduced in any proceeding may be treated as confidential, particularly as it applies to a publicly traded company.

Live in reality folks.

[truedude]

Jazz getting common employer is the funniest April Fool's joke ever.

Well done!

Unless I am mistaken, common ownership and control is a prerequisite for consideration for a common employer petition. So yes - this must indeed be an April Fools Day joke.

Also, a petition must be filed with the CIRB. And no - that filing is neither privileged nor confidential although some evidence or testimony adduced in any proceeding may be treated as confidential, particularly as it applies to a publicly traded company.

Live in reality folks.

So you have a copy of the filing?

[truedude]

Jazz getting common employer is the funniest April Fool's joke ever.

Well done!

Unless I am mistaken, common ownership and control is a prerequisite for consideration for a common employer petition. So yes - this must indeed be an April Fools Day joke.

Also, a petition must be filed with the CIRB. And no - that filing is neither privileged nor confidential although some evidence or testimony adduced in any proceeding may be treated as confidential, particularly as it applies to a publicly traded company.

Live in reality folks.

Common owner ship also isn't required.

The common employer doctrine applies when multiple related companies exercise control over an employee’s work, making them jointly liable for employment obligations. This can happen even if the companies have different owners, as long as they operate in a way that makes them functionally a single entity in employment matters.

Key factors courts consider include:

Interrelation of operations (e.g., shared management, payroll, HR policies)

Common control over employees (e.g., supervision, hiring, firing)

Shared financial interests (e.g., profits, losses, corporate structure)

[Booming]

This is amazing! Jazz pilots getting seniority over Air Canada pilots

Next it will be Endeavor at Delta, Horizon at Alaska, PSA at American, Mesa for United, Encore for WestJet!!

You regional folks are genuine geniuses

[cdnavater]

Sky regional has been training, not only on the AC side, but INSIDE AC sims! let's start a rumour about it while we're at it

Just to address this, Sky Regional doesn’t exist, it’s Jazz and the reason for that is the SIM which is now the E175 is in the AC building and has been since it was originally for the E190s AC operated.
I’m talking about the planned addition to the AC side of the CAE building to which the plan is to move Jazz offices and SIMS over there.
We have also move over to other AC buildings, not sure why but doesn’t lend well to the common employer deniers!

[cdnavater]

This is amazing! Jazz pilots getting seniority over Air Canada pilots

Next it will be Endeavor at Delta, Horizon at Alaska, PSA at American, Mesa for United, Encore for WestJet!!

You regional folks are genuine geniuses

Not a single Jazz pilot in this thread ever said that, that I am aware of. The ones going on about this are self declared AC pilots.
What I said was the only reason I see AC ALPA needs intervener status on OUR CIRB challenge is because the outcome might affect them, ie; common employer.
For what it’s worth, Encore filed intervener status in the WJ/ Sunwing seniority arbitration because it affected them and had a genuine interest in the outcome.

[cdnavater]

The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!

Can you point out the events and how they fit into the applicable case law? Honest question.

The biggest smoking gun is the Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement with Jazz management and AC rejected it and renegotiated a lower agreement, they were our employer with these actions. A few other things mentioned in this thread and a couple other things I’m not thinking of

[PostmasterGeneral]

The common employer declaration comes from case law and certain events over the last few years would be hard to argue against!

Can you point out the events and how they fit into the applicable case law? Honest question.

The biggest smoking gun is the Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement with Jazz management and AC rejected it and renegotiated a lower agreement, they were our employer with these actions. A few other things mentioned in this thread and a couple other things I’m not thinking of

You're confusing the CPA with being employed by AC. What company signs your paycheck? AC negotiates with Jazz, not the Jazz pilots. Pilots negotiate with Jazz. Pretty simple.

The reason AC filed for intervener status has nothing to do with common employer. Jazz MEC never mentioned it in any of their 3 proposals. It's because they want a seat at the table to represent their pilots interests.

[truedude]

Can you point out the events and how they fit into the applicable case law? Honest question.

The biggest smoking gun is the Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement with Jazz management and AC rejected it and renegotiated a lower agreement, they were our employer with these actions. A few other things mentioned in this thread and a couple other things I’m not thinking of

You're confusing the CPA with being employed by AC. What company signs your paycheck? AC negotiates with Jazz, not the Jazz pilots. Pilots negotiate with Jazz. Pretty simple.

The reason AC filed for intervener status has nothing to do with common employer. Jazz MEC never mentioned it in any of their 3 proposals. It's because they want a seat at the table to represent their pilots interests.

When AC interfered with the contract Jazz agreed to with their pilots, Air Canada directly blurred the line with who the employer is.

You have no idea what was filed with the CIRB, as none of that information becomes public knowledge until after a resolution has been reached.

ACA is filing intervener status. AC corporate was directly named in the filing as a party responsible.

[cdnavater]

Can you point out the events and how they fit into the applicable case law? Honest question.

The biggest smoking gun is the Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement with Jazz management and AC rejected it and renegotiated a lower agreement, they were our employer with these actions. A few other things mentioned in this thread and a couple other things I’m not thinking of

You're confusing the CPA with being employed by AC. What company signs your paycheck? AC negotiates with Jazz, not the Jazz pilots. Pilots negotiate with Jazz. Pretty simple.

The reason AC filed for intervener status has nothing to do with common employer. Jazz MEC never mentioned it in any of their 3 proposals. It's because they want a seat at the table to represent their pilots interests.

Regardless of what has or hasn’t been filed because as I said I’m spitballing, what interest do AC pilots have in a Jazz CIRB challenge?
As for who signs the paycheque you know full well Jazz signs it but you also know that AC pays the bills and clearly you missed the point, we DID negotiate with Jazz, we HAD a tentative agreement that was going to the membership for a vote the next day! AC intervened because THEY pay the bills and said no way we’re paying that, so that comes back to my , who do we work for question? Keeping in mind that common employer does not HAVE to mean ownership, if they exert control over the employees it may rise to the level required!
I also want to be clear, I’m not looking for a number on your list, could care less really, I’m so close to retirement, I wouldn’t bid something else anyway. Happy to stay right where I am as a little boy, I just want the corporation to pay for their continued violations of an agreement they agreed to, I don’t like it when Trump does it and I don’t like it when AC does it!

[Freshredmeat]

The biggest smoking gun is the Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement with Jazz management and AC rejected it and renegotiated a lower agreement, they were our employer with these actions. A few other things mentioned in this thread and a couple other things I’m not thinking of

You're confusing the CPA with being employed by AC. What company signs your paycheck? AC negotiates with Jazz, not the Jazz pilots. Pilots negotiate with Jazz. Pretty simple.

The reason AC filed for intervener status has nothing to do with common employer. Jazz MEC never mentioned it in any of their 3 proposals. It's because they want a seat at the table to represent their pilots interests.

Regardless of what has or hasn’t been filed because as I said I’m spitballing, what interest do AC pilots have in a Jazz CIRB challenge?
As for who signs the paycheque you know full well Jazz signs it but you also know that AC pays the bills and clearly you missed the point, we DID negotiate with Jazz, we HAD a tentative agreement that was going to the membership for a vote the next day! AC intervened because THEY pay the bills and said no way we’re paying that, so that comes back to my , who do we work for question? Keeping in mind that common employer does not HAVE to mean ownership, if they exert control over the employees it may rise to the level required!
I also want to be clear, I’m not looking for a number on your list, could care less really, I’m so close to retirement, I wouldn’t bid something else anyway. Happy to stay right where I am as a little boy, I just want the corporation to pay for their continued violations of an agreement they agreed to, I don’t like it when Trump does it and I don’t like it when AC does it!

Thats too bad. I was looking forward to flying with you l on the Dreamliner with your 4 bars on an exotic layover. Bummer