low AME wages throughout Canada

[planeguy]

a recent personally projected survey finds that the price of cabbage has gone up by 7 times since 1985. when i started driving in 1998, gas was 44 cents/litre. the price of living has at least doubled in the last 10 years. and wages in many different trades such as plumbing, tool and die, and the automotive industry have tagged along the economic inflation to somewhat match it.

what's wrong with aircraft maintenance. more importantly, what's wrong with aircraft maintenance in canada?

i'm currently working in aircraft maintenance in the corporate sector. a recent study shows that in the divided states of america, corporate aviation engineers average between 25 to 35 USD/hour. that's about 30 - 40 CDN/hour. if the 25 to 35 USD was actually CDN, (which it isn't) it would still be a raw deal because the price of everything in Canada is much higher than in the US. For example, american engineers who make 25/hour spend less dollar for dollar on everything from gas ($2.20USD/gallon average, which would be $0.63/litre CDN), mortgages ($300,000 USD in most large US cities can purchase a large 4 bedroom house, while the equivalent $348,000 CDN can purchase a 2 bedroom house in most large CDN cities).

even if the canadian dollar where equal to the US, the cost of living in the US is cheaper than Canada and the aircraft maintenance wages are higher and growing down there in comparison. most careers in the US pay more than in Canada, but why aren't engineer wages increasing up here while everything else is. the cost of living has at least doubled globally in the last 20 years, yet aircraft maintenance wages in Canada are stagnant. many apprentices made $8/hour back in the 80's and still do in many parts of Canada today. many engineers made $18 back in the 80's and still do in many parts of Canada today.

many parts of Europa and other parts of the world also dump Canada's aircraft maintenance sector heavily in the dirt.

anybody have an idea whats wrong with us other than just the obvious no respect for employees or the importance of the career?

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

Well, the way I see it the trade will become less and less appealing to new recruits as time goes on, already today people are leaving the industry in droves because the plumber that came to unclog thier crapper is making substantially more money than they are. It is hard to find a professional trade that is paid less than ours nowadays, and all the other trades carry much less responsibility/liability making nearly every other career path out there very attractive in comparasin. Problem is the colleges, much like flight training schools blow so much smoke up new guys butt's that don't realize the state of the industry and make them believe they will excel in a high paid industry with heaps of room for advancement (heck ,they probably also make them believe they will be employed in ideal working conditions and treated with dignity and respect by all others employed in different careers in the same industry). The schools make thier money, the students struggle to repay thier debts. Perhaps that is why there are so many young engineers in the field, they are are stuck in a state of discovering it wasn't a good career choice or they are looking for a way out. There are of course the ones who enjoy it and don't consider thier income as a determining factor in thier career path and will retire from the industry, but that breed of engineer is getting much harder to find. Perhaps the industry can survive for some time on the younger guys that are looking for a way out as the cycle will repeat itself with every new class of college grads, but as word gets out the industry will no longer be able to sustain that and the ratio of experienced engineers to fresh new ones will shift dramatically. Maybe then operators will realize that they need the incentive to retain skilled engineers and keep them happy in thier current employment. Bottom line, maintenance is expensive and if you can get your labour cheap in order to keep your fares competitive you stand a chance of succeeding. Some people don't realize that no price can be put on the experience that a lot of engineers in this country possess, and the amount of savings that a good experienced engineer can bring to his employer. Pay a good experienced guy a fair wage, and he will cost less to have around than 2 inexperienced guys who are paid half as much. I doubt I will be in the industry anymore when/if this happens.

[Pat Richard]

Experienced people leaving this trade seems to be becoming a fairly common occurence. What I don't know is how many apprentices are hanging in there. In Alberta at least, they're wages(entry level) are comparitive with McDnalds, BK, etc. AME's are not much better off, with the upper pay scale being 25-27 a/hr, generally less. But again, owners don't hesitate to pay $70 plus an hour for toilet plunging, or getting their car fixed.
What I have been hearing though, is that it seem's to be getting difficult to find experienced AME's. I've heard this from several people, and if air canada calls back the rest of their layoff's, it will compound.
So for those who are still in it, hold out for a reasonable wage. People who do this 'cause they love it, and care less what they make, are idiots.
They help cause the shit pay situation by having that attitiude, and should be treated accordingly. Chumps.

So if you are looking to take a new job in aviation, make them pay a reasonable wage, give you some moving expenses, etc, before you accept. They do not have a lot to choose from currently, so if you're experienced, make them pay for it.

[motox415]

I agree with Pat Richard. Everyone seems to be working for nothing and at the same time getting treated like garbage. I am overseas working but have been looking for a job back in Canada. I have had a few offers but nothing worth taking.

[H-Boy]

Excellnt post!!!
Its about time we look at wages that are being paid to engineers. Ya know its very true...our trade IS the lowest paid....my wife flies Rig mechanics up north to repair equipment there...and they are shocked to know how little pilots or engineers make. They think we should make 6 figure incomes as they do. But how is an owner to be made aware of this? Their costs are already high, and profit margins so tight...the WHOLE industry needs revamping - right down to customers attitudes! Myself, here in Alberta, I am in the upper echelon (I think) as far as wages go...so whats the incentive to stay with this career? Airlines?? I think not....I hate workin nights! But then, it is also true the industry is hurting for QUALIFIED engineers. So where do we start?....

[Pat Richard]

But how is an owner to be made aware of this? Their costs are already high, and profit margins so tight

I have a hard time believing any company involved in oil and gas, directly or indirectly, would be having a difficult time making good profits from ops. If they legitamately are, they are seriously flawed in their business plan, something all too common in aviation.
From the service perspective, how in the hell can they expect to make anything when they charge out labor at $50ish a/hr? Try getting quality service for your car or your plumbing looked at for that rate. It's freakin ludicrous to charge that for aircraft maintenance when we all know the owners of the these airplanes hardly flinch paying $80+ a/hr to get their vehicle fixed.
In any case, I don't really care what the owner/amo's financial issues are. My concern is getting compensated properly for the service I provide and the sacrifices/liabilities I endure in providing that service. Im not out whore myself out to anyone cause they're "a good place to work" or "the owner is a nice guy", something I've seen way too much of over the years. They can be all that and still pay respectable wages, and if not they should'nt complain about a lack of experienced AME's.
The fact experienced AME's are disappearing is no surprise with everything booming tradeswise, and I hope it continues. I think the only way this industry will revamp itself is if it completly scares it skilled workers away.
It's about time "supply and demand" meant more in this industry than a rallying call for the apprentice mills to ramp up production. But Im not holding my breath

[fmrc3ame]

It is a sad state of affairs here in Canada. Shame too as the money seems to be outside Canada. I've been in this business since 85 and am currently contemplating a move overseas where the money is being offered at 9000 euros. Interesting to note is the airlines outside Canada are more than willing to pay premiums for your services and give you additional perks. I remember an article a few years back that showed the state of our trade in 5-10 years is going to be dismal as the kids nowadays don't want to get into it. When an automotive mechanic makes more than you how do you entice an eighteen year old into this trade?

[motox415]

Why the low wages? Is it because there is always someone around the corner willing to work for nothing? Is it supply and demand? You always hear about a shortage in the industry. It seems this shortage has been around ever since I have been in the industry(17 years). Thats a load of crap! And why is it when someone gets promoted from the floor to management its their obligation to treat everyone below them like dirt. I do not know, maybe it is just me and the companies I have worked for in Canada. There must be a few good places to work, untill then I am staying overseas.

Merry xmas everyone

[planeguy]

aircraft maintenance in Canada will hopefully starve itself into the ground of engineers because the pay comparative to many bartenders and waitors at restaurants. i'm knew in this industry and haven't been licensed for a full year yet. i've decided that i'll stick around in aircraft maintenance here in canada and invest in real estate until everyone gets sick of the state of our trade, and leaves. wages should go up with more pissed off employees and less people to choose from. its actually pretty depressing when i think that the field with the necessary highest work standards and responsibility of most trades, if not all, has little to no standards when it comes to salaries. i guess until we have american companies here like piedmont hawthorne service centres and TIMCO competing who don't mind paying their employees competitive wages, we should remain in the duck's gut. hopefully, the open-skies laws that have arisen will allow some sort of line maintenance to open up here also with american companies, forcing canadian companies to compete as the industry finds itself starving of underpaid employees.

[Pat Richard]

why is it when someone gets promoted from the floor to management its their obligation to treat everyone below them like dirt

I've seen this attitude often enough also, but generally from an AME to an apprentice. My own personal take on it is that the ones who suffer from this mindset have been treated poorly by higher up's for a period of time, and then relish in the fact it's there turn at bat. They promptly forget what it is like on the recieving end. I don't see this as often as I used to, but for sure it still goes on. It's a poor quality of person who pursue that path.
Undercutting one another has been a way of life in this trade as long as I've been in it. There's always seem's to be some ass, whatever their reasoning, who brings us all down by accepting poor pay/conditions.
Best answer to this is to keep your options open(ie; out of aviation) so you're not a prisoner of aviation. It's when they got you by the balls they can feed you shit, so be your own boss.

[KKboy]

The problem in my opinion is there are too many people who do not negotiate for higher wages combined with a system designed to pump out as many apprentices as possible from technical schools.
It is a supply and demand issue, but over the years flight crews have done better than engineers in wages due partly to their attitude towards negotiating.

Singapore is presently advertising for A320 people at $65.00 cdn an hour with 60 hour weeks. Last year they were paying less than this and that is a simple supply issue.

The only solution is to ask for more and if you do not get want you want move on.
There are options as far as incorporating and forming groups to monitor contracts and wages.

[Pat Richard]

The only solution is to ask for more and if you do not get want you want move on.

It really is that simple(change "want" to "what" ). I just hope more begin to walk that walk.

[kilpicki]

I've noticed in Canada that a lot of places will have one licenced A.M.E. who will sign the books no matter the situation because the boss says so and he is a yes man.

As long as this one guy will do this there is no need to pay for anymore lcences so they have apprentices galore and when they get a licence they move on. To where I'm not sure.

And the CAMPC or whatever the organization is that is recognizing the trades is just cutting the throats of licenced guys. Why have an A.M.E. when you can have a hangar full of recognized trades which you don't pay near as much as a licenced guy.

There does seem to be more adds for licenced guys but I've not looked into it as overseas pays so much more and you get so much time off.

[KKboy]

Pat there is no doubt my typing sucks.

Further to the issue however, it seems to me I earned more when TC was handing out type endorsements.
Now that this is the domain of individual QA managers the requirements seem to have slipped a bit. along with wages.
I also liked it better in the old license system, which did make it more difficult for an operator like Jazz, but it defined you as an engineer more accurately and allowed for better skills set development.

I think Jazz and Air Canada set the bench mark for wages and exceeding these rates in the Canadian environment is difficult.
I don't know how they do it now but they used to include grommers in the regional industry negotiating groups which was good for the operator and bad for the engineers.

I think it is a conspiracy.

[Pat Richard]

AC and Jazz, as far as know, still do lump engineers into the same group as groomers, luggage bashers, etc. Last I'd heard, they(AME's)were trying to break away from the union and form their(CAMA) own AME only union. I have'nt been to their site in quite some time, so I don't know where that's currently at. I personally like the idea.
I agree that the above mentioned airlines have in the past, and for the most part still do, set the benchmark for pay, with Jazz maybe not so much. Although better than most everywhere else, they still don't stand up to what other simaler fields/trades pay. I know they offer benefits, but there seems to be some debate as to how "beneficial" they actually are. Biggest plus I see would be in their type training, but to work there, you'd be looking at long time on graveyards. That's a big minus for me, but maybe something the young crowd may be into.
What's the licensing requirement for the A320 work in Singapore?

[KKboy]

Pat they are looking for JAR B1.
I understand they will accept Canadian licences particularly if you have a recent signing autority from a Canadian operator and minimum 3 years experience. There are so few Canadian expat's out there that they normally don't mention it.
It is all base maintenance, but once you have your foot in the door there is some line maintenance however the immigration requirements for line are more difficult.
They were advertising for 90 day contracts last week, I just looked and don't see it, below is the link. If I find the ad I will post it.

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/search.asp

[KKboy]

Pat they are looking for JAR B1.
I understand they will accept Canadian licences particularly if you have a recent signing autority from a Canadian operator and minimum 3 years experience. There are so few Canadian expat's out there that they normally don't mention it.
It is all base maintenance, but once you have your foot in the door there is some line maintenance however the immigration requirements for line are more difficult.
They were advertising for 90 day contracts last week, I just looked and don't see it, below is the link. If I find the ad I will post it.

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/search.asp

Glotec
B1 737-700\800 LICENSED ENGINEERS FOR CONTRACT IN JANUARY!!!!!(BASE MAINTENANCE) placed on: 16/12/2005
SINGAPORE
£27.00 PER HOUR
Our client is a large MRO currently looking for B1 licensed 737-700\800 engineers for a 2-3 month contract. You will be paid an excellent hourly rate of £27.00 along with travel and accomodation. Lots of hours available engineers currently doing aroung 70 hours a week.

You must be a B1 engineer who is type rated and current on the 737-700\800. UK LICENSED AND FAA A+P LICENSED ENGINEERS ONLY PLEASE.

[KKboy]

So I was wrong it was a 737-800 they were looking for and 27 GB pounds is not 65 canadian.
I am surprised how strong the cdn dollar is.
It worked out to 55.48 cdn at today's exchange rate.

At that rate in a 90 day contract working the 70 hours they list you earn 46,600.00.
I think the tax withholding is 17%
So you generally get $40,000.00 for the tour, minus beer.

A tough contract but it is currently 80 F in Singapore.

[Pat Richard]

Thanks for the link/info, KK.
Yeah, it will take a little getting used to in regards to the loonie.


Cheers'


Pat

[wingnut]

ive heard of level 4 apprentices making over $16 an hour. whats wrong with that? asside from steady night shifts, i dont think it will be all that bad

[Pat Richard]

Try doing straight nights for a few years, and then see how bad you think it is. Better yet, go google "night shift studies" and see if that does'nt change your tune.
Just remember, everyone else in trades are currently making the same,or more, as apprentices than many new engineers. 16 buck an hour for a 4th year is sad. That's barely above Mickey D's and company in Cowtown, let alone Ft Mac.
Don't have student loan to worry about?, bought all your tools? Car paid for?How about rent? etc. These all are costly, and you'll soon see how far that "okay" wage won't bring you.
Fill yer boots.

[KKboy]

Wingnut what type aircraft is this 16 dollar wage associated with?

Single engine piston then OK
High performance piston twins or twin turbo prop under 12,5 then maybe not so good.
Commercial transport, start looking for a new place to work.

[wingnut]

it was for twin turbo, over 12 5. ture enough, i never thought of it like that. whats wrong with this industry? all of sudden id rather go someplace warm and flip burgers for a while

[motox415]

$16.00 per hour!!!??? Thats what I was making 12 years ago on heavy turbo prop with your experience. Sad state this we call an industry is in. Cost of living has not gone up in since then?

[KKboy]

Motox don't be so harsh.
Everyone can't be a world touring expat.

Altough Canadian's are generally the highest earning expat's it takes a good 10 years in Canadian Commercial to qualify.

Like the NZ start up; who gets selected? Only the guys with the track record and some successfull tours under their belt.

Point being if you want to make a living you need to have short, medium and long term goals.
The Canadian system will give this to you but you need to know where you want to be 1,5, 10 years from now and plan your future.
DO NOT let any one else decide these things for you.

By the way the biggest problem on the road to higher wages is the fact that people are embarassed to talk about what they earn.
This is wrong, and operators use this against us.