5 pilots on 737 laid off

[Man_in_the_sky]

I’ll add that it takes quite a bit for a company to cut their losses on training, obviously the future training problems were taken into account!

Training failures the company will typically go quite a ways with... eventually the writing is in the wall though and experience levels coming in have never been lower.

I hear we are also seeing some poor choices from some and the company isn't giving any slack if you're on probation.

Sleeping in, missing flights, not being in base for reserve assignments, excessive book-offs, complaining about scheduling, training, position assignment, bases... I'm hearing of these things like never before.

Keep your nose clean for a year, that's all you have to do...

I hear through the grapevine, that there's managers in YYZ going around cold calling new hires coming up to the end of probation and issuing various threats. Over things like using sick days, taking parental leave or needing additional training. I'm not sure if termination has been thrown around yet but some have allegedly had probation extended. It's to the point where ALPA legal is getting involved

Probation or not, that's a big overstep if true. Imagine this happening at one of the US legacies... ALPA would smack management so hard it's not even funny. Here management can harass and threaten employees and it's par for the course.

Happens also in YUL, that's when you get Alpa involved and get an insta-release before your date !

[altiplano]

LOL... I'm just saying, stay under the radar... having multiple managers know you for your various issues in your first few months isn't a good start.

Pass your training and stay under the radar for a year... that's all you have to do as a new hire.

Complaining to managers about shit that is just a factor of being junior in your first year? Things like you *need* YWG or YVR base immediately and can't hold it. You *need* weekends off and summer vacation and can't hold it. You don't want to be on the 220, you wanted the 777. Screwing up your position bid and then complaining about it.

It doesn't matter if it is Delta or United, you may not get everything you want when you first show up. I wish we all did get summer vacation and weekends off and joined the airline as 777 Captains working 8 days a month with positive space commuting from wherever we choose to live... but it just isn't so.

I don't think anyone is getting fired for complaining per se, but then throw in a missed reserve call out or a sleep in at the hotel and missed pickup or a training failure, and the company starts saying maybe we should take a pass on this guy.

Stay under the radar for a year and if you do make a mistake somewhere in there it's a non-issue.

[pelmet]

I considered doing OnlyFans myself........If I was more of the DEI persuasion though why not. You can make some good coin on there.

Do you base that statement on the amount you pay on that site?

[350driver]

I can’t see how someone on an approved leave of absence for reasons such as compassionate care, parental, etc, gets a ‘phone call’ about being in trouble… seems like a far reach to create speculation and rumours.

Even training failures on probation have a process in our contract… if by the time those avenues have been exhausted you aren’t passing training… perhaps there’s other issues… medical?

The company will go as far as placing you on medical leave if something is going on during probation.

Even though the experience isn’t what maybe used to come through the doors, the hiring board is still rejecting and pfo’ing a lot of people. So whoever is getting hired must be who they want?

I never once felt the impression the company was out to get me as a new hire. Quite the opposite. Awesome training staff and just all around nice people to go to work with.

My 2 cents anyway. Good luck everyone!

[thepoors]

I can’t see how someone on an approved leave of absence for reasons such as compassionate care, parental, etc, gets a ‘phone call’ about being in trouble… seems like a far reach to create speculation and rumours.

Even training failures on probation have a process in our contract… if by the time those avenues have been exhausted you aren’t passing training… perhaps there’s other issues… medical?

This is why ALPA legal is getting involved. Managers are not following protocol and reaching out to pilots directly to issue "warnings" instead of using the proper protocols through ALPA. All of these issues should be non-punitive anyway. It's just an intimidation and manipulation game the company is playing. I get that some people might abuse call outs but imo it sets a really bad precedent of scaring people off from using sick days or other types of leave.

[350driver]

Wonder if this is all part of the $150m cost reduction initiative the company is well under way with?

It was spoken about in the earnings call last week.

Call your pilots and intimidate them lol

Still have a hard time processing this happening, I honestly don’t want to believe it.

Do you know of specific cases where a manager called a pilot on a leave of absence and threatened to fire him for being on leave? Seems far fetched to me.

[altiplano]

If you're on a leave like parental leave, that's a protected leave, they can't touch you for that.

But intimidating with meetings over book offs is just another AC card replayed from years past...

"Our data shows that 75% of your book offs are on weekend trips"
"Because I work every weekend"

"Can you explain why you used more sick days last year than you did on average between 2010-2020"
"Because now I'm older and more tired and sick of it all more often"

The company isn't after you until they are...

[thepoors]

Wonder if this is all part of the $150m cost reduction initiative the company is well under way with?

It was spoken about in the earnings call last week.

Call your pilots and intimidate them lol

Still have a hard time processing this happening, I honestly don’t want to believe it.

Do you know of specific cases where a manager called a pilot on a leave of absence and threatened to fire him for being on leave? Seems far fetched to me.

From the story I've heard they are targeting pilots who are near the end of their probation. Like I said before, I'm not sure termination was threatened but extended probation was.

That's the nice AC welcome you get after your first year of service.

[tango308]

I dont know if its specific to my fleet or not but there's a high number of guys are apparently failing their 1st recurrent PPC after their initial. Most likely due to training fatigue.

Unfortunately, failing a ride is pretty much a guaranteed probation extension at AC. It sucks but on the upside it's only max 6 months. After that, you have to be released provided you stay under the radar.

Stay sharp, stay at least somewhat in the books and answer your phone during your RAP times and you'll be golden.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I dont know if its specific to my fleet or not but there's a high number of guys are apparently failing their 1st recurrent PPC after their initial. Most likely due to training fatigue.

Unfortunately, failing a ride is pretty much a guaranteed probation extension at AC. It sucks but on the upside it's only max 6 months. After that, you have to be released provided you stay under the radar.

Stay sharp, stay at least somewhat in the books and answer your phone during your RAP times and you'll be golden.

That’s called complacency. People usually toss the books on the shelf until it’s time again to look it up. And 1st recurrent has way less sims than initial so people can’t get it back in time. 1st recurrent has the most amount of failures

You mentioned it well. As pilots we should always be ready for the worst day of our lives. Stay sharp

[Blueontop]

I dont know if its specific to my fleet or not but there's a high number of guys are apparently failing their 1st recurrent PPC after their initial. Most likely due to training fatigue.

Unfortunately, failing a ride is pretty much a guaranteed probation extension at AC. It sucks but on the upside it's only max 6 months. After that, you have to be released provided you stay under the radar.

Stay sharp, stay at least somewhat in the books and answer your phone during your RAP times and you'll be golden.

That’s called complacency. People usually toss the books on the shelf until it’s time again to look it up. And 1st recurrent has way less sims than initial so people can’t get it back in time. 1st recurrent has the most amount of failures

You mentioned it well. As pilots we should always be ready for the worst day of our lives. Stay sharp

Way less? There’s only one sim session, the ride..

[CaptDukeNukem]

I dont know if its specific to my fleet or not but there's a high number of guys are apparently failing their 1st recurrent PPC after their initial. Most likely due to training fatigue.

Unfortunately, failing a ride is pretty much a guaranteed probation extension at AC. It sucks but on the upside it's only max 6 months. After that, you have to be released provided you stay under the radar.

Stay sharp, stay at least somewhat in the books and answer your phone during your RAP times and you'll be golden.

That’s called complacency. People usually toss the books on the shelf until it’s time again to look it up. And 1st recurrent has way less sims than initial so people can’t get it back in time. 1st recurrent has the most amount of failures

You mentioned it well. As pilots we should always be ready for the worst day of our lives. Stay sharp

Way less? There’s only one sim session, the ride..

Yes, that’s way less than initial. I don’t know why you are confused

[Blueontop]

That’s called complacency. People usually toss the books on the shelf until it’s time again to look it up. And 1st recurrent has way less sims than initial so people can’t get it back in time. 1st recurrent has the most amount of failures

You mentioned it well. As pilots we should always be ready for the worst day of our lives. Stay sharp

Way less? There’s only one sim session, the ride..

Yes, that’s way less than initial. I don’t know why you are confused

I’m not confused but your statement seemed to imply that you get some practice sessions “before you get it back”

[digits_]

Way less? There’s only one sim session, the ride..

Yes, that’s way less than initial. I don’t know why you are confused

I’m not confused but your statement seemed to imply that you get some practice sessions “before you get it back”

Holy shit. You guys don't get training at 6 months?? What about annually?

[crystalpizza]

AC mainline uses the AQP system for pilot training, which in a lot of respects is better than the traditional PPC system however for your first recurrent sim as a new hire you can basically be thrown right into what's known as the MTV which is basically like a PPC except you're allowed as many repeats of exercises ("Train to Standard") as time permits. You get no "practice" session before the MTV. Practice is on your own time and dime, open sim slots are bookable by pilots for this purpose; I have yet to meet anyone who actually does it.

[altiplano]

Isn't it LOE on first recurrent sequence on type? So would be MT/LOE? Or do they do MTV/LOE?

[200Above]

Isn't it LOE on first recurrent sequence on type? So would be MT/LOE? Or do they do MTV/LOE?

Crystalpizza is correct. At least on my aircraft it’s MTV day 1, followed by LOFT day 2. The jeopardy event is the MTV (V = validation). I don’t remember the first take off being a V1 cut, but it does lead to a non normal- and just like that, the game has begun.

You have to be stay in the books after initial. Especially RP’s. We could easily go 5 months without even doing a set up procedure and you better be able to get the plane pushed back in the expected time (30 minutes or so). This is what foreshadows how the rest of the session is likely to go.

Yes you can complete redo’s. But that doesn’t help you if it took you an hr to get pushback clearance.

[altiplano]

Yeah. you're right, straight into regular pattern with MTV/LOFT for first sequence is current practise. Maybe it used to be LOE in first recurrent sequence and it changed, whatever... been a while since I did a course.

MT/MTV - it's all the same though when it comes down to it, an IFR ride like all the ones we've done before..

You know all the events that are coming, the only thing they change is the non-normal you get in one of the events... pack, hydraulic. gear, flap, generator, etc. etc... and they tell you on the briefing what it will be and it's not even a memory item they put there... just call the right checklist.

I guess if these guys are having problems with aircraft handling that's another issue... And if they can't do a ramp check? What have they been doing?

[yycflyguy]

I can’t see how someone on an approved leave of absence for reasons such as compassionate care, parental, etc, gets a ‘phone call’ about being in trouble… seems like a far reach to create speculation and rumours.

Even training failures on probation have a process in our contract… if by the time those avenues have been exhausted you aren’t passing training… perhaps there’s other issues… medical?

This is why ALPA legal is getting involved. Managers are not following protocol and reaching out to pilots directly to issue "warnings" instead of using the proper protocols through ALPA. All of these issues should be non-punitive anyway. It's just an intimidation and manipulation game the company is playing. I get that some people might abuse call outs but imo it sets a really bad precedent of scaring people off from using sick days or other types of leave.

So you think a managers first call is to the union about problematic new hires? I've got some news for you...

I rarely defend AC but all the cases I've heard about a new hire being problematic on probation were spot on. Couple of times the union has to grit their teeth and defend the candidate even tho it would be in everyone's best interest to move on from some of the problems. If guys are getting calls, there is likely a pattern.

[ItsGoodEnough]

If 5 pilots were let go it’s likely for a valid reason.

I find AC is very accommodating as far as employers go. People that need extra help and training generally always get it and more. If one is genuine and honest and making the effort you have nothing to worry about as a new hire or pilot on probation.

There is always the odd person that appears to feel the world is owed to them and they deserve better and more. Those people tend to not do as well.

[350driver]

If 5 pilots were let go it’s likely for a valid reason.

I find AC is very accommodating as far as employers go. People that need extra help and training generally always get it and more. If one is genuine and honest and making the effort you have nothing to worry about as a new hire or pilot on probation.

There is always the odd person that appears to feel the world is owed to them and they deserve better and more. Those people tend to not do as well.

What was said above is spot on. In my experience, I haven’t seen any kind of targeted behavior at this company. Most of the issues that arise seem to be the result of individual circumstances—whether it's related to someone's command decisions or gaps in their initial training.

YYCpilot made a great point, and I agree. This isn’t about defending anything—it’s just an honest reflection of how things are.

There’s a common misconception that AC is a place full of overly rigid personalities, which can lead new hires to showing up guarded and overly defensive the moment they don't look like they have the answers. In this profession we are always learning, in fact I'd say that's an attitude that's expected of you at AC. Like said before, if you show up with that attitude, the company is super accommodating.

In reality, it’s one of the more relaxed jobs out there. Owning mistakes and moving forward goes a long way here.

Getting defensive and blaming someone else, or lying about something, especially when you're the problem, is a quick way to to be shown the doors.

I can’t see how someone on an approved leave of absence for reasons such as compassionate care, parental, etc, gets a ‘phone call’ about being in trouble… seems like a far reach to create speculation and rumours.

Even training failures on probation have a process in our contract… if by the time those avenues have been exhausted you aren’t passing training… perhaps there’s other issues… medical?

This is why ALPA legal is getting involved. Managers are not following protocol and reaching out to pilots directly to issue "warnings" instead of using the proper protocols through ALPA. All of these issues should be non-punitive anyway. It's just an intimidation and manipulation game the company is playing. I get that some people might abuse call outs but imo it sets a really bad precedent of scaring people off from using sick days or other types of leave.

So you think a managers first call is to the union about problematic new hires? I've got some news for you...

I rarely defend AC but all the cases I've heard about a new hire being problematic on probation were spot on. Couple of times the union has to grit their teeth and defend the candidate even tho it would be in everyone's best interest to move on from some of the problems. If guys are getting calls, there is likely a pattern.

Exactly!


Hopefully, by 2027, we’ll see an increase in starting pay so more people can consider joining without it being such a financial strain in Toronto and Vancouver.

[Flyboy736]

If 5 pilots were let go it’s likely for a valid reason.

I find AC is very accommodating as far as employers go. People that need extra help and training generally always get it and more. If one is genuine and honest and making the effort you have nothing to worry about as a new hire or pilot on probation.

There is always the odd person that appears to feel the world is owed to them and they deserve better and more. Those people tend to not do as well.

What was said above is spot on. In my experience, I haven’t seen any kind of targeted behavior at this company. Most of the issues that arise seem to be the result of individual circumstances—whether it's related to someone's command decisions or gaps in their initial training.

YYCpilot made a great point, and I agree. This isn’t about defending anything—it’s just an honest reflection of how things are.

There’s a common misconception that AC is a place full of overly rigid personalities, which can lead new hires to showing up guarded and overly defensive the moment they don't look like they have the answers. In this profession we are always learning, in fact I'd say that's an attitude that's expected of you at AC. Like said before, if you show up with that attitude, the company is super accommodating.

In reality, it’s one of the more relaxed jobs out there. Owning mistakes and moving forward goes a long way here.

Getting defensive and blaming someone else, or lying about something, especially when you're the problem, is a quick way to to be shown the doors.

This is why ALPA legal is getting involved. Managers are not following protocol and reaching out to pilots directly to issue "warnings" instead of using the proper protocols through ALPA. All of these issues should be non-punitive anyway. It's just an intimidation and manipulation game the company is playing. I get that some people might abuse call outs but imo it sets a really bad precedent of scaring people off from using sick days or other types of leave.

So you think a managers first call is to the union about problematic new hires? I've got some news for you...

I rarely defend AC but all the cases I've heard about a new hire being problematic on probation were spot on. Couple of times the union has to grit their teeth and defend the candidate even tho it would be in everyone's best interest to move on from some of the problems. If guys are getting calls, there is likely a pattern.

Exactly!


Hopefully, by 2027, we’ll see an increase in starting pay so more people can consider joining without it being such a financial strain in Toronto and Vancouver.

Forget the starting pay, 2027 needs to be all about lifestyle. When the number 2 NB FO gets optimized working max days in the month and thunder bay overnights something is seriously wrong with this company. Socialized bidding but the company gets the socializing aspect.

[crystalpizza]

If 5 pilots were let go it’s likely for a valid reason.

I find AC is very accommodating as far as employers go. People that need extra help and training generally always get it and more. If one is genuine and honest and making the effort you have nothing to worry about as a new hire or pilot on probation.

There is always the odd person that appears to feel the world is owed to them and they deserve better and more. Those people tend to not do as well.

What was said above is spot on. In my experience, I haven’t seen any kind of targeted behavior at this company. Most of the issues that arise seem to be the result of individual circumstances—whether it's related to someone's command decisions or gaps in their initial training.

YYCpilot made a great point, and I agree. This isn’t about defending anything—it’s just an honest reflection of how things are.

There’s a common misconception that AC is a place full of overly rigid personalities, which can lead new hires to showing up guarded and overly defensive the moment they don't look like they have the answers. In this profession we are always learning, in fact I'd say that's an attitude that's expected of you at AC. Like said before, if you show up with that attitude, the company is super accommodating.

In reality, it’s one of the more relaxed jobs out there. Owning mistakes and moving forward goes a long way here.

Getting defensive and blaming someone else, or lying about something, especially when you're the problem, is a quick way to to be shown the doors.

So you think a managers first call is to the union about problematic new hires? I've got some news for you...

I rarely defend AC but all the cases I've heard about a new hire being problematic on probation were spot on. Couple of times the union has to grit their teeth and defend the candidate even tho it would be in everyone's best interest to move on from some of the problems. If guys are getting calls, there is likely a pattern.

Exactly!


Hopefully, by 2027, we’ll see an increase in starting pay so more people can consider joining without it being such a financial strain in Toronto and Vancouver.

Forget the starting pay, 2027 needs to be all about lifestyle. When the number 2 NB FO gets optimized working max days in the month and thunder bay overnights something is seriously wrong with this company. Socialized bidding but the company gets the socializing aspect.

100%. Major QOL which the last contract was severely underwhelming in, topped with maybe a modest (~15%) across the board pay increase will need to be the focus next round and seems to be the general expectation.

Plus if we've got a plateau in hiring on the way then maybe starting pay will be less important by then anyway (ironically might be easier to negotiate if there's less pilots on Y1-4 by then though).

[thepoors]

I can’t see how someone on an approved leave of absence for reasons such as compassionate care, parental, etc, gets a ‘phone call’ about being in trouble… seems like a far reach to create speculation and rumours.

Even training failures on probation have a process in our contract… if by the time those avenues have been exhausted you aren’t passing training… perhaps there’s other issues… medical?

This is why ALPA legal is getting involved. Managers are not following protocol and reaching out to pilots directly to issue "warnings" instead of using the proper protocols through ALPA. All of these issues should be non-punitive anyway. It's just an intimidation and manipulation game the company is playing. I get that some people might abuse call outs but imo it sets a really bad precedent of scaring people off from using sick days or other types of leave.

So you think a managers first call is to the union about problematic new hires? I've got some news for you...

I rarely defend AC but all the cases I've heard about a new hire being problematic on probation were spot on. Couple of times the union has to grit their teeth and defend the candidate even tho it would be in everyone's best interest to move on from some of the problems. If guys are getting calls, there is likely a pattern.

Fair enough.

However, hassling people about using sick days is stooping pretty low. It's also how you end up with a pilot incapacitation because a new guy who should've booked off is too afraid to use a sick day.

From what I've heard this was the pet project of a certain yyz mlo who has since had a telling off.

[Man_in_the_sky]

If 5 pilots were let go it’s likely for a valid reason.

I find AC is very accommodating as far as employers go. People that need extra help and training generally always get it and more. If one is genuine and honest and making the effort you have nothing to worry about as a new hire or pilot on probation.

There is always the odd person that appears to feel the world is owed to them and they deserve better and more. Those people tend to not do as well.

What was said above is spot on. In my experience, I haven’t seen any kind of targeted behavior at this company. Most of the issues that arise seem to be the result of individual circumstances—whether it's related to someone's command decisions or gaps in their initial training.

YYCpilot made a great point, and I agree. This isn’t about defending anything—it’s just an honest reflection of how things are.

There’s a common misconception that AC is a place full of overly rigid personalities, which can lead new hires to showing up guarded and overly defensive the moment they don't look like they have the answers. In this profession we are always learning, in fact I'd say that's an attitude that's expected of you at AC. Like said before, if you show up with that attitude, the company is super accommodating.

In reality, it’s one of the more relaxed jobs out there. Owning mistakes and moving forward goes a long way here.

Getting defensive and blaming someone else, or lying about something, especially when you're the problem, is a quick way to to be shown the doors.

So you think a managers first call is to the union about problematic new hires? I've got some news for you...

I rarely defend AC but all the cases I've heard about a new hire being problematic on probation were spot on. Couple of times the union has to grit their teeth and defend the candidate even tho it would be in everyone's best interest to move on from some of the problems. If guys are getting calls, there is likely a pattern.

Exactly!


Hopefully, by 2027, we’ll see an increase in starting pay so more people can consider joining without it being such a financial strain in Toronto and Vancouver.

Forget the starting pay, 2027 needs to be all about lifestyle. When the number 2 NB FO gets optimized working max days in the month and thunder bay overnights something is seriously wrong with this company. Socialized bidding but the company gets the socializing aspect.

Classic pilot behaviour. Forget about the next generation, help the top guys !

Scheduling need a kick in the nuts, but Overall 4 first years are alway a MAJOR issue. No new pilots won't improve your QOL on the long run