Jazz Approach state

[RoAF-Mig21]

Does CAE / Jazz have a place in Kingston (at YGK) where this will take place? When will this program start? Will it be run by CAE instructors or Jazz?

[GIVCE!]

This whole thing, and the sneaky silence of it all, just feels like a big F U to the pilotsand ALPA from management. If we can’t get pilots from colleges and flight schools? Hell, we’ll start our own school, charge ludicrous amounts of money for it, trap non-upgradable FO’s to a life of servitude for many years after, use out-sourced, cheaper, possibly inferior instructors to do it all while leaving the union and it’s members on the outside looking in saying, wtf. The volume will never meet the requirements of future hiring, so why even bother? As if this solves anything except adding another layer of bureaucracy to the Chorus portfolio. I wonder how much the CFI or the person in charge of this program is going to be paid? You can bet it’s more than a first year fo, or Capt for that matter. Just another show of non support for the in house talent that already exists here and continues to leave BY THE HUNDREDS mainly due to the lack of competitive wages. But hey, it’s AC fault right for repatriating flying and sucking up all the pilots they need, when they see fit. This place is shrinking faster than the cohones on a small boy swimming in the North Atlantic. Not much future to look forward to atm, hence the mass exedus. All the effort previously put into recruitment programs through colleges and flight schools and still no permanent solution to the in house PICuS problems or fixing the wages to RETAIN the pilots that do come to Jazz. Instead another stupid corporate experiment. I’ll bet the Trudeau government is even kicking in the start up funds under some ‘hire Canadian’ banner. Such BS. Tax payers would love to learn that I’ll bet, tell the people that got shafted over the Xmas break that now THEY are paying for the pilots to learn to fly so they can get to Cuba for $50. See how that floats…prove to me that Chorus is fully funding this, and if they are, disgusting. Money should be going to CURRENT PILOT WAGES. imo, the union should be all over this.
Fin.

[rudder]

This whole thing, and the sneaky silence of it all, just feels like a big F U to the pilotsand ALPA from management. If we can’t get pilots from colleges and flight schools? Hell, we’ll start our own school, charge ludicrous amounts of money for it, trap non-upgradable FO’s to a life of servitude for many years after, use out-sourced, cheaper, possibly inferior instructors to do it all while leaving the union and it’s members on the outside looking in saying, wtf. The volume will never meet the requirements of future hiring, so why even bother? As if this solves anything except adding another layer of bureaucracy to the Chorus portfolio. I wonder how much the CFI or the person in charge of this program is going to be paid? You can bet it’s more than a first year fo, or Capt for that matter. Just another show of non support for the in house talent that already exists here and continues to leave BY THE HUNDREDS mainly due to the lack of competitive wages. But hey, it’s AC fault right for repatriating flying and sucking up all the pilots they need, when they see fit. This place is shrinking faster than the cohones on a small boy swimming in the North Atlantic. Not much future to look forward to atm, hence the mass exedus. All the effort previously put into recruitment programs through colleges and flight schools and still no permanent solution to the in house PICuS problems or fixing the wages to RETAIN the pilots that do come to Jazz. Instead another stupid corporate experiment. I’ll bet the Trudeau government is even kicking in the start up funds under some ‘hire Canadian’ banner. Such BS. Tax payers would love to learn that I’ll bet, tell the people that got shafted over the Xmas break that now THEY are paying for the pilots to learn to fly so they can get to Cuba for $50. See how that floats…prove to me that Chorus is fully funding this, and if they are, disgusting. Money should be going to CURRENT PILOT WAGES. imo, the union should be all over this.
Fin.

et caveat emptor

[truedude]

It is sad, and pathetic. It just shows the absolute level of contempt management holds for the pilot group. But we can fight back against it by remaining unified behind our union, and known that we will not accept anything less than a radical redress of the our current working conditions. F/O's star at $65, Captains at $100, and top out at $200. Company pays a 100% of our benefits. Anything short of that, we don't even show up to talk to the company.

And until that day, we continue to work under the terms of our current contract, that will continue to see us bleed pilots, unable to hire new ones. We remind the company as frequently as possible that this is the contract that they wanted. And we make it be known we will see this through to the very end, regardless of what the end might be; either higher pay for us, or they decide to shut the company down.

The union can't tell us to not work overtime, or any other work to rule type measures. But they don't need to. As I quoted in other places, "They used to enjoy my maximum, now they will suffer my minimum... I am an army of one, or two, or three hundred."

That being said, no one should be shamed for working overtime, as it is a legal part of our contract. And if that is what you have to do to feed yourself or you family, or because you want to go skiing to stay sane, then by all means.

They are showing extreme stubbornness, we just need to let it be known that we can be stubborn too, and for much longer. Because in the end, pilots in Canada now have options, and they need to start accepting and dealing with that reality.

[hithere]

It is sad, and pathetic. It just shows the absolute level of contempt management holds for the pilot group. But we can fight back against it by remaining unified behind our union, and known that we will not accept anything less than a radical redress of the our current working conditions. F/O's star at $65, Captains at $100, and top out at $200. Company pays a 100% of our benefits. Anything short of that, we don't even show up to talk to the company.

And until that day, we continue to work under the terms of our current contract, that will continue to see us bleed pilots, unable to hire new ones. We remind the company as frequently as possible that this is the contract that they wanted. And we make it be known we will see this through to the very end, regardless of what the end might be; either higher pay for us, or they decide to shut the company down.

The union can't tell us to not work overtime, or any other work to rule type measures. But they don't need to. As I quoted in other places, "They used to enjoy my maximum, now they will suffer my minimum... I am an army of one, or two, or three hundred."

That being said, no one should be shamed for working overtime, as it is a legal part of our contract. And if that is what you have to do to feed yourself or you family, or because you want to go skiing to stay sane, then by all means.

They are showing extreme stubbornness, we just need to let it be known that we can be stubborn too, and for much longer. Because in the end, pilots in Canada now have options, and they need to start accepting and dealing with that reality.

Best post I've come across in a long time

[CaptDukeNukem]

It is sad, and pathetic. It just shows the absolute level of contempt management holds for the pilot group. But we can fight back against it by remaining unified behind our union, and known that we will not accept anything less than a radical redress of the our current working conditions. F/O's star at $65, Captains at $100, and top out at $200. Company pays a 100% of our benefits. Anything short of that, we don't even show up to talk to the company.

And until that day, we continue to work under the terms of our current contract, that will continue to see us bleed pilots, unable to hire new ones. We remind the company as frequently as possible that this is the contract that they wanted. And we make it be known we will see this through to the very end, regardless of what the end might be; either higher pay for us, or they decide to shut the company down.

The union can't tell us to not work overtime, or any other work to rule type measures. But they don't need to. As I quoted in other places, "They used to enjoy my maximum, now they will suffer my minimum... I am an army of one, or two, or three hundred."

That being said, no one should be shamed for working overtime, as it is a legal part of our contract. And if that is what you have to do to feed yourself or you family, or because you want to go skiing to stay sane, then by all means.

They are showing extreme stubbornness, we just need to let it be known that we can be stubborn too, and for much longer. Because in the end, pilots in Canada now have options, and they need to start accepting and dealing with that reality.

This is absolutely the right approach. Stay strong, do the minimum you are required to do, stay legal and most importantly… stay in solidarity.

[cykj]

Does CAE / Jazz have a place in Kingston (at YGK) where this will take place? When will this program start? Will it be run by CAE instructors or Jazz?

Cygnet Aviation Academy. They were hiring instructors on indeed.ca a couple of months ago. You might recognize the corporation directors.

https://opengovca.com/corporation/13482952

[GIVCE!]

Looks like they own a DA42 … things are sure coming together…lol

[RoAF-Mig21]

Does CAE / Jazz have a place in Kingston (at YGK) where this will take place? When will this program start? Will it be run by CAE instructors or Jazz?

Cygnet Aviation Academy. They were hiring instructors on indeed.ca a couple of months ago. You might recognize the corporation directors.

https://opengovca.com/corporation/13482952

Indeed. Thank you for that info / link.

[cdnavater]

Does CAE / Jazz have a place in Kingston (at YGK) where this will take place? When will this program start? Will it be run by CAE instructors or Jazz?

Cygnet Aviation Academy. They were hiring instructors on indeed.ca a couple of months ago. You might recognize the corporation directors.

https://opengovca.com/corporation/13482952

Oh, I’m sure their duties are included in the already over inflated salaries, wait I guess Joe needs a retirement gig, since his “pension” might not pay the bills

[ibrahimrao]

Hello, I'm thinking of joining CAE jazz with little information about ground school. I'm currently studying business at a post secondary institution since jazz requires you to have a diploma. I just would like to know is it worth joining jazz since I'm only joining since it gives me flight hours more quickly than other schools like BCIT and Seneca and a secured job with them. Also, I would like to know how the studies are and any other flight information I should know, general information of the school.

[400hz]

The problem is this, when and if you get hired by Jazz following the program, you will be at the bottom of a reserve list and won't fly. We have First Officers that have to requalify in the simulator every 3 months because there are too many warm bodies on the roster. If you are looking for time once you get "on board", forget it...it won't happen. And once you are lucky enough to have a schedule, you will be locked in position as you will have no PIC time to upgrade to Captain. Your best bet is to go work for someone that you can build time quickly and upgrade fast, fill the PIC time requirement, then start looking for a position that doesn't tie your hands behind your back. In all honest I don't know why jazz is still hiring guys that have no time or experience...we have a warehouse full of them.

[daedalusx]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you your next Jazz Captain.

[Me262]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you your next Jazz Captain.

How dare he! He should go paint fences for Buffalo Joe and "pay his dues" like you did in dinosaur age.

[Outlaw58]

Hello, I'm thinking of joining CAE jazz with little information about ground school. I'm currently studying business at a post secondary institution since jazz requires you to have a diploma. I just would like to know is it worth joining jazz since I'm only joining since it gives me flight hours more quickly than other schools like BCIT and Seneca and a secured job with them. Also, I would like to know how the studies are and any other flight information I should know, general information of the school.

The Jazz Approach program is not something you just sign up for, cough up the money and bob's your uncle...

As you mentioned, it comes with a job offer and therefore, you need to successfully pass an interview and be extended the conditional job offer before you will be admitted in the program. If you are accepted, it means that you are a good fit for Jazz and the program and Jazz also feels that it is a good fit for you.

As for the comment about FO flying rate, that is the state today. But if I learned anything in aviation, especially the last few years is that a month is an eternity. If you are accepted and successful, you will hit the flying line at least 2 years from now and things will most certainly have changed a LOT by then. Just look back 2 years...

58

[Inverted2]

The scary thing is Jazz is upgrading pilots with as little as 1700 total hours so you could have a crew up front with less than 2000 total time in the cockpit. Yes they have to pass the all the training but man that’s not much experience.

[dustyroads]

The scary thing is Jazz is upgrading pilots with as little as 1700 total hours so you could have a crew up front with less than 2000 total time in the cockpit. Yes they have to pass the all the training but man that’s not much experience.

Experience outside of Jazz isn’t valued? They only want to train people with no experience doesn’t seem logical. I have no airline experience but goodness people with multi turbine experience with the glass cockpit should be trainable.

[dustyroads]

The problem is this, when and if you get hired by Jazz following the program, you will be at the bottom of a reserve list and won't fly. We have First Officers that have to requalify in the simulator every 3 months because there are too many warm bodies on the roster. If you are looking for time once you get "on board", forget it...it won't happen. And once you are lucky enough to have a schedule, you will be locked in position as you will have no PIC time to upgrade to Captain. Your best bet is to go work for someone that you can build time quickly and upgrade fast, fill the PIC time requirement, then start looking for a position that doesn't tie your hands behind your back. In all honest I don't know why jazz is still hiring guys that have no time or experience...we have a warehouse full of them.

Can you inquire from your HR department why they hire people with no time or experience? In any profession there’s usually a progression. Starting at an airline instead of at a sightseeing or bush etc operators seem to be skipping valuable experience. Can train for emergencies but having dealt with real ones before having a lot of people in the back for the 1st one seems like valuable experience.

[cdnavater]

The problem is this, when and if you get hired by Jazz following the program, you will be at the bottom of a reserve list and won't fly. We have First Officers that have to requalify in the simulator every 3 months because there are too many warm bodies on the roster. If you are looking for time once you get "on board", forget it...it won't happen. And once you are lucky enough to have a schedule, you will be locked in position as you will have no PIC time to upgrade to Captain. Your best bet is to go work for someone that you can build time quickly and upgrade fast, fill the PIC time requirement, then start looking for a position that doesn't tie your hands behind your back. In all honest I don't know why jazz is still hiring guys that have no time or experience...we have a warehouse full of them.

Can you inquire from your HR department why they hire people with no time or experience? In any profession there’s usually a progression. Starting at an airline instead of at a sightseeing or bush etc operators seem to be skipping valuable experience. Can train for emergencies but having dealt with real ones before having a lot of people in the back for the 1st one seems like valuable experience.

It’s not that they don’t hire experience, it’s that any real experience is applying elsewhere that the pay is better! Jazz would gladly hire 3000 hour multi-turbine pilots if they applied and were a good fit, surprisingly Jazz has not really lowered the hiring traitors to anyone with a pulse despite the environment. They would rather shrink than start the upward trend you saw in the U.S regionals, who are still short staffed despite the much higher pay!

[dustyroads]

The problem is this, when and if you get hired by Jazz following the program, you will be at the bottom of a reserve list and won't fly. We have First Officers that have to requalify in the simulator every 3 months because there are too many warm bodies on the roster. If you are looking for time once you get "on board", forget it...it won't happen. And once you are lucky enough to have a schedule, you will be locked in position as you will have no PIC time to upgrade to Captain. Your best bet is to go work for someone that you can build time quickly and upgrade fast, fill the PIC time requirement, then start looking for a position that doesn't tie your hands behind your back. In all honest I don't know why jazz is still hiring guys that have no time or experience...we have a warehouse full of them.

Can you inquire from your HR department why they hire people with no time or experience? In any profession there’s usually a progression. Starting at an airline instead of at a sightseeing or bush etc operators seem to be skipping valuable experience. Can train for emergencies but having dealt with real ones before having a lot of people in the back for the 1st one seems like valuable experience.

It’s not that they don’t hire experience, it’s that any real experience is applying elsewhere that the pay is better! Jazz would gladly hire 3000 hour multi-turbine pilots if they applied and were a good fit, surprisingly Jazz has not really lowered the hiring traitors to anyone with a pulse despite the environment. They would rather shrink than start the upward trend you saw in the U.S regionals, who are still short staffed despite the much higher pay!

Stepping up to a Jazz position in my opinion would be 1900 and King Air Captains. Lots of IFR experience on aircraft a bit slower than Jazz Dash 8, with 2 crew experience and many of those types now have FMS/Glass Cocpits seems to be the plausible logical applicants to hire and be able to fit in rather quickly to the operation. A good fit doesn’t seem to be the no to low experienced.

[cdnavater]

Can you inquire from your HR department why they hire people with no time or experience? In any profession there’s usually a progression. Starting at an airline instead of at a sightseeing or bush etc operators seem to be skipping valuable experience. Can train for emergencies but having dealt with real ones before having a lot of people in the back for the 1st one seems like valuable experience.

It’s not that they don’t hire experience, it’s that any real experience is applying elsewhere that the pay is better! Jazz would gladly hire 3000 hour multi-turbine pilots if they applied and were a good fit, surprisingly Jazz has not really lowered the hiring traitors to anyone with a pulse despite the environment. They would rather shrink than start the upward trend you saw in the U.S regionals, who are still short staffed despite the much higher pay!

Stepping up to a Jazz position in my opinion would be 1900 and King Air Captains. Lots of IFR experience on aircraft a bit slower than Jazz Dash 8, with 2 crew experience and many of those types now have FMS/Glass Cocpits seems to be the plausible logical applicants to hire and be able to fit in rather quickly to the operation. A good fit doesn’t seem to be the no to low experienced.

Read my post AGAIN, they are not applying to Jazz! The odd one trickles through but if you have 3000 King air time, you can skip Jazz or Encore and go straight to AC etc.

[dustyroads]

It’s not that they don’t hire experience, it’s that any real experience is applying elsewhere that the pay is better! Jazz would gladly hire 3000 hour multi-turbine pilots if they applied and were a good fit, surprisingly Jazz has not really lowered the hiring traitors to anyone with a pulse despite the environment. They would rather shrink than start the upward trend you saw in the U.S regionals, who are still short staffed despite the much higher pay!

Stepping up to a Jazz position in my opinion would be 1900 and King Air Captains. Lots of IFR experience on aircraft a bit slower than Jazz Dash 8, with 2 crew experience and many of those types now have FMS/Glass Cocpits seems to be the plausible logical applicants to hire and be able to fit in rather quickly to the operation. A good fit doesn’t seem to be the no to low experienced.

Read my post AGAIN, they are not applying to Jazz! The odd one trickles through but if you have 3000 King air time, you can skip Jazz or Encore and go straight to AC etc.

Then that means both are hiring applicants who have skipped a step in normal progression. AC etc should be hiring Jazz/Encore Captains. To me it’s a progression ladder. For example 1900 FO to 1900 Capt to Dash 8 FO to Dash 8 Capt to A320 FO to A320 Capt.

[BTD]

Stepping up to a Jazz position in my opinion would be 1900 and King Air Captains. Lots of IFR experience on aircraft a bit slower than Jazz Dash 8, with 2 crew experience and many of those types now have FMS/Glass Cocpits seems to be the plausible logical applicants to hire and be able to fit in rather quickly to the operation. A good fit doesn’t seem to be the no to low experienced.

Read my post AGAIN, they are not applying to Jazz! The odd one trickles through but if you have 3000 King air time, you can skip Jazz or Encore and go straight to AC etc.

Then that means both are hiring applicants who have skipped a step in normal progression. AC etc should be hiring Jazz/Encore Captains. To me it’s a progression ladder. For example 1900 FO to 1900 Capt to Dash 8 FO to Dash 8 Capt to A320 FO to A320 Capt.

“To me it’s a progression ladder”

What you feel one way or the other is irrelevant. Also what I feel is irrelevant. Supply and demand dictates who applies and who gets hired. You don’t need to have flown a classic dash, to fly a 320. There are certainly benefits, that come from airline experience, but our “feelings” don’t matter.

Those 3000 hr king air captains that skip jazz and come sit next to me as 767 FOs usually do fine. They are pretty sharp and figure it out quick. This is as a training captain. By the time they are flying with a line captain, they have it down. There is still lots for them to learn, but isn’t that the case for all of us.

[goingnowherefast]

It's a Canada problem. We don't have enough major airlines fighting over pilots. Basically the only 2 that are hiring is AC and Porter. But even Porter is narrow-body only, and even those are overgrown regional aircraft. Nobody is expecting 132 seats in a E195 to compete with career earnings and variety a company like AC naturally has available.

AC can continue dropping their requirements because they're basically the only show in town, and can take what they deem appropriate from their fully controlled regional; Jazz. They don't have to pay better (yet).

There's still not enough new pilots entering training to meet demand. The young kids in high-school aren't sufficiently interested. AC has kept the pay low, the working conditions terrible that insufficient number of kids want the job. Yes, there's a bottleneck in the right seat at the regionals. Lots of people who aren't qualified for the ATPL and right seat gumming up the progression. The northern operators have also done a great job at making the north horribly unappealing. Get a bunch of northern pilots together, and they'll start sharing stories about fighting with management, number of regs they were pressured into breaking and the times they almost died. Yeah, that's a great place to work, and a great career to pursue. That means insufficient experienced people available for the regionals and AC to hire.

Every operator that's short pilots deserves it. Pay well, treat your pilots properly and you won't have a shortage.