Take a hike David Wilkins!

[just clearing the trees]

Exactly. This is why Martin talking tough about the US policies isn't nearly as dangerous a thing as some people would make it out to be. In reality, it's not going to hurt us any more than they already have by raping the softwood industry of $5 billion. When you look at the long term picture, the US is going to be small potatoes in the world economy compared to some of the major Asian players. I'm no economist, but it's plain to see that they will be eclipsed rapidly. Especially since they can't invade or bomb the shit out of every country that presents a threat to their desire for global dominance.

[Nark]

Driving Rrain:
Forgive me but I was generalizing about people on this board who have nothing but a negative veiw towards the US. It was not to include everyone in this thread.

Everybody else:

Harper has to protect Canadian intrests. He's playing the political game where Mr. Martin is coming out and bashing the US. Big difference. Glass - House - Stones.

Until Canada diversifies its trading partners, it relies on the US. When India, China, and who knows maybe Iraq, comes calling with a fistful of dollars, then you can stand on a soapbox and tell the US to go and piss off.

Until then, don't bite the hand that feeds you.


On an aviation note, how much of your business relied on American hunters/fisherman?

When I worked in northern Sask, our float flying relied alot on Mr. Smith from Podunk, TX, MS, AL etc...

[altiplano]

-

[Driving Rain]

Get the soapbox... and don't be so condecending dinkface. Americans don't feed my family.

So why don't you and Mr. Smith go get a Miller and circlejerk down in Podunk.

You made your point altoplano, and then you blew it with these two gems.
With the new requirements coming on line in a couple of years that U.S. citizens returning to the U.S. from Canada to produce passports. Something most won't bother getting and thus won't be coming to Canada, it is estimated the tourist industry here will loose upwards of 2 billon dollars annually. You might not earn your bread and butter from the tourist industry but many here still do. I can assure you that there isn't enough other nationalities using Canadian fly in services to keep them buoyant for very long. It'll be totally devastating to the industry. Now be nice.

[Wilbur]

Have some of you people been smoking crack or something? Sure the Indian and Chinese economies have been growing in double digits, but they are still lighyears behind the western economies. 10% growth of f all is still f all. The burgeoning middle class, in India for example, is made up of people working in industries like call centers. Well paying jobs by Indian standards, poverty shit jobs in Canada or the US, outsourced because they can't find enough people here willing to work for what they pay. Middle class in India or China is not the same as middle class here, they have 1/100th the purchasing power of a middle class North American. They can afford to buy cheap domestic crap, but they sure as hell can't afford to import much of what we sell. India and China are decades away from having the potential to be major markets for North America or Western Europe.

Martin and Liberals are playing a dangerous game in spewing out their anti-american rehtoric. Name calling makes for good political sound bites that appeal to the illogical and cognitively challenged amoung us, but it exacerbates any attempt to resolve disputes. The Liberals behaviour has been juvinile, and a national embarassment. There are effective methods of "standing up for Canada" as Martin put it, and none of them involve the incompetence of insolence.

In any case, even if we could expand exports to the asian markets tomorrow, are we better off doing so to replace sales to the US, or to add to our exports and grow our economy? The answer should be obvious, therefore, damaging our trade relationship with the US will always be to our detriment; it's only a matter of how bad it will be.

[Nark]

Altiplano:

You generalize without having a real understanding... Seek enlightenment

I'm obviously a dumbass jarhead. I can only wish from Santa this Christmas that I can be as intellegent as you.

When I'm addressing a specific person in this thread I will mention that persons name. See example above. When I'm finished responding I will then address everybody else.

Would you like me break it down barney style even more?

Get the soapbox... and don't be so condecending dinkface. Americans don't feed my family.

Really? Where does the signal for your GPS come from? On the same note, how about satillite TV and radio signals, what about the comfort creatures like MAXIM Magazine, Playboy, The Late Show, Daily Show etc... Seems like Canada needs the US, not the other way around. Where do bands like Sum 41, Nickelback and Shinia Twain get their popularity/money from? Where do successful actors/TV personalities move too? Jim Carrey, Alex Trebec, Pam Anderson and Mathew Perry?
They may have a home or two on the lake in Ont. or BC. But their primary residence is in the US.

Sports: What currency do the NHL teams in Canada pay their players?

Until Canada is not dependant on the US for trade (read revenue), then you can get a soapbox and shout to the world, and I'll shut my mouth.

But it's the American glass house. So WTF do we care? Our trade base is broadening. Unlike you know who.

American/Canadian relations = Glass house. Canadians like Hon. Mr. Martin pissing on America = throwing stones. American/Canadian relations (glass house) breaks, shatters and crashes down. Canadians (you) no longer able to live in said house, and now your cold, wet etc... It may take a very long time to rebuild the house with China or India. China and India are growing very rapidly, however when do you think that the average family is going to have disposible income in which to support Canadian trade? Do I need to get a purple dinosaur to explain it to you?

Until that changes, politely get off your high horse.

Look into Japanese/American trade vs. Japanese/Canadian trade.

[just clearing the trees]

Sure the Indian and Chinese economies have been growing in double digits, but they are still lighyears behind the western economies. Middle class in India or China is not the same as middle class here, they have 1/100th the purchasing power of a middle class North American. They can afford to buy cheap domestic crap, but they sure as hell can't afford to import much of what we sell. India and China are decades away from having the potential to be major markets for North America or Western Europe.

I dare say they're alot closer to it than decades. Regardless of the purchasing power of the average middle class person in India or China, the fact remains that industrialization is exploding in these countries. Of course a middle class Chinese person isn't going to buy manufactured goods from Canada, that's what Japan is for. Are you really that ignorant to think that Canada's exports are manufactured goods anyways? No, we're a nation that supplies the raw materials. This is highschool stuff. The fact is that India and China need the raw materials and goods to build and support their rapidly expanding infrastructure. Materials and goods that Canada is a world-class supplier of. Materials and goods that we have been selling to the US. But the US doesn't need these things as desparately as these countries do because they don't have anywhere near the growth that these countries have. So, I'd say that China and India are alot more important than you think and their demand for what we have to offer is alot greater and more immediate than you think. Certainly much greater and more immediate than the demand from the US.

Martin and Liberals are playing a dangerous game in spewing out their anti-american rehtoric. Name calling makes for good political sound bites that appeal to the illogical and cognitively challenged amoung us, but it exacerbates any attempt to resolve disputes. The Liberals behaviour has been juvinile, and a national embarassment. There are effective methods of "standing up for Canada" as Martin put it, and none of them involve the incompetence of insolence.

What names has Martin called the Americans? Talking tough, regardless of it's political motives, is just that. It's not incompetence or insolence. No one in the US tells their politicians to shut up when they outright bully other nations with their rhetoric. Besides, why shouldn't Canadians stand up to the Americans on issues like beef or softwood lumber that we're clearly getting raped on. Even if Martin was name calling, it's still a far cry from the Americans quite literally stealing $5 billion from us and crippling a major industry and employer in this country.

In any case, even if we could expand exports to the asian markets tomorrow, are we better off doing so to replace sales to the US, or to add to our exports and grow our economy? The answer should be obvious, therefore, damaging our trade relationship with the US will always be to our detriment; it's only a matter of how bad it will be.

Yes, the answer should be obvious, although it apparently is not to you. The answer is yes, we would be better off to "expand exports to the asian markets" and "replace sales to the US" and "add to our exports and grow our economy." It's called diversification and it's a relatively simple financial concept. Trade between Canada and the US will never completely cease, but we should absolutely look beyond our neighbour to the south and into other, more profitable markets that have a high demand for what we have to offer. The more markets that Canada can export to the better. And the less dependence we have on one market that is stagnant in comparison the better.

[just clearing the trees]

Sports: What currency do the NHL teams in Canada pay their players?

24 of 30 teams are based in the US. Shall I bring in the purple dinosaur to explain that to you?

How many billions of US dollars do Canadian hockey players bring to the US economy? Far more than those players receive.

How many billions of US dollars to Canadian musical artists and movie stars bring to the US economy? Far more than those artists receive.

I'm on the phone to Barney right now, he'll be over to help you out shortly.

[altiplano]

-

[justplanecrazy]

Hey great figures. Makes China sound like the next USA. If you like figures than you'll like these ones.

I had posted this under the wrong topic by the looks of it, but just for you here it is again... America's trade deficit with Canada last year was a record high $54.4 billion. This involves products with a very minimal markup in shipping as they are simply trucked a few hundred miles south for resale.

Sure what you are all saying about diversifing sounds great in theory. The problem is we are already selling raw material to China. To try and sell products like my father sells to the US to China instead is impossible. We are sending over raw goods and buying back finished products from them simply because they make things for next to nothing. They don't honor copyright laws and have labour that costs a few pennies an hour. If there was a market there similar to the US, we couldn't compete.

Beijing's Average per capita income for the richest group was 29,600 yuan (US$3,600) last year. But the figure for the poorest 20 per cent was only 7,400 (US$890) yuan. Do you really think that someone making less than $1000 bucks a year is going to start buying Canada's Blackberry's when the US stops???

And for all of you who actually think that Martin is fighting the US, give your head a shake.

Before the Election when we were having Mad Cow issues... our Albertan premier met with the Vice President of the US before our own Prime Minister.
Then with the softwood, Martin did nothing other then mention it when meeting with the US staff for other reasons. He seemed to mention it as an aside to try and make it look like he was doing something.
Come election time all of a sudden he is hurling insults at the US for not signing Koyoto while in Quebec. This despite showing up in a gas burning 727 and Canada's emissions being up 24%... much higher than the US. If that isn't a smoke screen then I don't know what is.
And as far as blaming the US for handguns in Canada... isn't it Canadian's involved in smuggling Marajuana into the US that are involved in a large portion of these handgun offences?

Martin and his party are simply creating bad relations with the US and souring our trade agreements in an attempt to make it look like he's David standing up to Goliath. Really he's a whiny little brat bitching to his parents. If he were complaining about legitimate problems then I would back him, but the point is he is not. Softwood is the only legitimate complaint that he has and he has only pretended that he's taken a stand on that when in fact, until the election started he has done nothing and will accomplish nothing!!! The Mad Cow dispute was solved by Ralph Klein and the Ranchers and the Liberals tried to take credit from that too.

[justplanecrazy]

Double post

[Nark]

I feel special that US currency is used, because apart from road games, many of these players never step foot in the US. Why would they still want to get paid in US currency other than CDN or in Euros?


altiplano:

Do you think the money that Canadians spend to get their Playboys, MAXIM etc... stays entirly in Canada?

I bet you couldn't go a week without watching, reading, etc... some form of US media.

I also bet you that you could name the Vice president of the US, but couldn't name the Deputy PM without looking it up.

I also bet you, that you can name that little group of military people that advise the Pres. of military matters, but you can't name the same group in Canada.

You say that the US depends on Canada for energy?
This doesn't say that

This has gone from a debate to an argument. Like someone said, arguing on the internet is like winning gold in the special olympics. At the end of the day, your still retarded.

[marktheone]

The US is starting to fall, no debating that. What the anti american people need to realize is that it is a decline in western culture, not just the americans. As they fall so will we. So for jackass Pale Paul to be shooting his mouth off is completely ridiculous. They are us, we are them. We lived together and grew great together. We are definetly a different country than the US but we are built on the same things. This is not the case with Chine and India. We need to work with the US to slow this whole thing down. Just my .02C CDN.

[SittinPretty]

You are right on Marktheone.
The U.N.'s Human Resource Index for the best nations in the world in which to reside was issued this morning.
Canada was 5th and the U.S. was 10th. Other top countries were Norway, Iceland, Luxembourg, etc.. All in the "West"
Where is China, India??? Off the chart at the bottom. These are very poor countries with a very small middle class.
It is a little soon to start talking about the decline of western civilisation. Journalists in Canada and the US were writing articles about the end of American dominance 50 years ago. Well they continue to represent almost 50% of the world's economic and military power. There airline industry alone represents over 50% of the world, ailrine traffic. That is in one country. And we are next door.
Will there dominance erode: probably. Is it a little soon for our PM to be spouting off about our environmental superiority and pissing them off. Absolutely.

[just clearing the trees]

The US is starting to fall, no debating that. What the anti american people need to realize is that it is a decline in western culture, not just the americans.

All the more reason to distance ourselves from their "culture" and head in a new direction.

Well they continue to represent almost 50% of the world's economic and military power.

Lets see some hard figures to back up what smells to me like a completely arbitrary figure pulled right out of your ass.

altiplano:

Do you think the money that Canadians spend to get their Playboys, MAXIM etc... stays entirly in Canada?

I bet you couldn't go a week without watching, reading, etc... some form of US media.

You say that the US depends on Canada for energy?
This doesn't say that

Because god knows the world would stop turning with Playboy and Maxim. Of course we couldn't go a week without some form of US media, it's so prevalent it's not possible to avoid it. That doesn't mean it's a good thing or it's special in some way.

Oh, as for your little link there, that doesn't say anything other than oil gas and coal the US produces. That doesn't say anything about the US levels of usage. It also doesn't say where the electricity comes from for the north-east US. Why don't you look that one up?

[altiplano]

-

[marktheone]

We both rely on each other. The sooner the new economies take hold the sooner we will be worse off. Do you think that all of a sudden they'll start paying their workers fair wages? Nope, no way. Wait till those wages spill over the pond onto us due to competition. Reverse slavery coming right up.

Don't vote for stuttering paul. He eats his young.

[The Old Fogducker]

Just for the record, I'm proud to be a running dog lackey of the imperialist industrial complex.

I heard retired General Louis McKenzie speak to the Empire Club. Very interesting Canadian. He said "we are the only people that could live next door to the most powerful nation on earth, who buys 80% of what we make in our factories, and turn that into a problem."

Well said.

Fog

[just clearing the trees]

Don't vote for stuttering paul. He eats his young.

Not sure what that has to do with the issue, but regardless, Paul Martin is a far more competent and experienced businessman than any of the other candidates who are just politicians and lawyers at best. If the economy is your concern, he would be the one to vote for. The other candidates don't have a handle on financial and economical issues like he does.

[justplanecrazy]

I agree, the other candidates wouldn't know how to create a great program like the sponsorship scandal without help from Paul or Jean.

[just clearing the trees]

OK, gear down there big shifter. Put aside your petty comments for a second and think like an adult. When it comes down to finances you must admit the others don't really have anything on the resume in that field. At least Paul Martin has run a successful multi-million dollar company in another life. If you could see past your distaste for the Liberals, you'd be able to admit that he's the best businessman/economist of the bunch. That's all I'm trying to say, not trying to get you to vote for him.

[Wilbur]

What do any of you Chinese cheerleaders foresee us selling to them, the economic powerhouse with a whopping per capita GDP at PPP of $5642 for 2004 (good for a world ranking of 97th), or perhaps India with their amazing $3080 and 125th place showing? The US has a per capita GDP at PPP of $37496, 3rd in the world, and Canada in 9th place with $32921.

At those GDP levels, the Chinese and Indians can barely feed and cloth themselves. They aren't going to be buying Canadian lumber to build nice little two bedroom stick frame bungalows in the suburbs. And even if some will in the future, eastern Russia is rapidly developing its forest industry and will be a closer and cheaper supplier. Especially since they are actively importing efficient Canadian forest harvesting technologies.

There have been people in Canada and the west touting the large Chinese population as an emerging world superpower since they brought in economic reforms in 1979. 25 years later they remain a very inefficient and unproductive third world economy.

[justplanecrazy]

OK, gear down there big shifter. Put aside your petty comments for a second and think like an adult. When it comes down to finances you must admit the others don't really have anything on the resume in that field. At least Paul Martin has run a successful multi-million dollar company in another life. If you could see past your distaste for the Liberals, you'd be able to admit that he's the best businessman/economist of the bunch. That's all I'm trying to say, not trying to get you to vote for him.

So sorry, ok I have my "adult" thinking cap on now... wow Paul Martin is my Hero!!! He has managed to have a zero defecit with no real benefits despite record surplus income over the past several years. We had a balanced budget years ago and despite huge increases in income we continue to just break even with no increases in services. I implore you to name one thing that the Liberals have done for this country since they've been elected. Hell a 2 year old could do more with that kind of surplus and still balance the books. If he knows anything about economics he sure as hell isn't revealing it. I think that Martin would make a great accountant but when it comes to determining how to spend money he is a blonde going Christmas shopping with her boyfriends credit card.

[marktheone]

Don't vote for stuttering paul. He eats his young.

Not sure what that has to do with the issue, but regardless, Paul Martin is a far more competent and experienced businessman than any of the other candidates who are just politicians and lawyers at best. If the economy is your concern, he would be the one to vote for. The other candidates don't have a handle on financial and economical issues like he does.

Stuttering Paul is a used car salesman. Yes, he is a far more schred biz man than anyone else. And as a businessman he looks after himself. Let's get rid of that moron.

[Floats]

Not sure what that has to do with the issue, but regardless, Paul Martin is a far more competent and experienced businessman than any of the other candidates who are just politicians and lawyers at best. If the economy is your concern, he would be the one to vote for. The other candidates don't have a handle on financial and economical issues like he does.

Geez man, Stephen Harper Holds a masters in Economics!!!!!!! and is not a Lawyer

Your glory boy Paul Martin has a BA in history and Philosophy, and a Law Degree. His Father served 33 years as a member of the house of commons. A lot of training in Politics for Paul JR. SO I think it would be correct to say that Paul Martin is more suited for your "just politicians and lawyers at best" line.

Know what your talking about before you spew this crap!!!

Floats