YVR center capacity

[ZBBYLW]

Hey guys, I won't stand on my soap box and ask for people to write their MPs and I know the problem doesn't come from the controllers on the other end of the radio. Yesterday though we were all given some relatively long in trail spacing delays heading east bound on a severe clear day.

I am trying to understand the problem. How many controllers on shift would be considered normal? When there is less than optimal are you guys coving more sectors/bigger area or taking shorter breaks and spending more time in the chair and thus benefit from a more manageable work load?

How many students are in training at the moment?

[lostaviator]

It kind of does come from the controller on the other end of the radio. I'm not faulting them. They are are working the system better than us pilots have ever figured out.

Next time you are on heading 080 "for traffic", ask for deviations for weather. The response will answer your question.

[co-joe]

It's corruption pure and simple. The people in the yvr acc are corrupt, they are gaming the system to their own benefit, and they don't care how many airlines they rip off to do it, they don't care how many passengers they inconvenience, they don't even care how many career paths they derail. They make more money by failing new hires, and then strategically calling in sick, and they take turns reaping the double time.

[TeePeeCreeper]

It's corruption pure and simple. The people in the yvr acc are corrupt, they are gaming the system to their own benefit, and they don't care how many airlines they rip off to do it, they don't care how many passengers they inconvenience, they don't even care how many career paths they derail. They make more money by failing new hires, and then strategically calling in sick, and they take turns reaping the double time.

That’s quite the outlandish claim. I hope you’re right for your own sake because it sure could come off as libel/slander. ‘Just saying…

TPC

[altiplano]

It's corruption pure and simple. The people in the yvr acc are corrupt, they are gaming the system to their own benefit, and they don't care how many airlines they rip off to do it, they don't care how many passengers they inconvenience, they don't even care how many career paths they derail. They make more money by failing new hires, and then strategically calling in sick, and they take turns reaping the double time.

That’s quite the outlandish claim. I hope you’re right for your own sake because it sure could come off as libel/slander. ‘Just saying…

TPC

He's correct.

They are fully working the system for maximum benefit to themselves at the cost of everyone else.

Coordination and reciprocation of book offs ensures they maximize pay. Washing out trainees maintains labour scarcity and prevents additional coverage which would take away their pay multipliers.

It could be described as an organized fraud. At a normal employer there would be terminations, but NavCanada is unaccountable. What do they care, they don't actually pay for it - just up the air navigation fees on passenger tickets.

Meanwhile, there is an extensive cost to other stakeholders. Particularly airlines that have no option but to deal with it, lost utilization, cancelled flights, there own staffing problems triggered. Then there are the passengers with missed connections and ruined trips, hotels and airport food on their own dime. If course other employee groups like pilots dealing with the fallout and increasing their own workload and time at work with what amounts to a negative time/money benefit.

I have respect for the licensed professionals in this industry. But professional doesn't apply with the type of thing that's going on here. They need a complete reset. Full audit and fire everyone with a pattern of involvement, transfer the rest to other centres with shortages and bring in military terminal controllers to run Vancouver centre and terminal. See how fast the other centres shape up.

[Hangry]

It's corruption pure and simple. The people in the yvr acc are corrupt, they are gaming the system to their own benefit, and they don't care how many airlines they rip off to do it, they don't care how many passengers they inconvenience, they don't even care how many career paths they derail. They make more money by failing new hires, and then strategically calling in sick, and they take turns reaping the double time.

That’s quite the outlandish claim. I hope you’re right for your own sake because it sure could come off as libel/slander. ‘Just saying…

TPC

He's correct.

They are fully working the system for maximum benefit to themselves at the cost of everyone else.

Coordination and reciprocation of book offs ensures they maximize pay. Washing out trainees maintains labour scarcity and prevents additional coverage which would take away their pay multipliers.

It could be described as an organized fraud. At a normal employer there would be terminations, but NavCanada is unaccountable. What do they care, they don't actually pay for it - just up the air navigation fees on passenger tickets.

Meanwhile, there is an extensive cost to other stakeholders. Particularly airlines that have no option but to deal with it, lost utilization, cancelled flights, there own staffing problems triggered. Then there are the passengers with missed connections and ruined trips, hotels and airport food on their own dime. If course other employee groups like pilots dealing with the fallout and increasing their own workload and time at work with what amounts to a negative time/money benefit.

I have respect for the licensed professionals in this industry. But professional doesn't apply with the type of thing that's going on here. They need a complete reset. Full audit and fire everyone with a pattern of involvement, transfer the rest to other centres with shortages and bring in military terminal controllers to run Vancouver centre and terminal. See how fast the other centres shape up.

Amen.

[yeah yeah]

People have been making this overtime protection claim since the 1980's
More than 35 years later, nobody has come out with any concrete evidence of it.

99 times out of 100, the claims were made by a bitter ATC trainee who didn't qualify.

[co-joe]

...

99 times out of 100, the claims were made by a bitter ATC trainee who didn't qualify.

How about 30 something trainees in a row who didn't qualify, all fired by the same 2 guys?

[16SidedOffice]

bring in military terminal controllers to run Vancouver centre and terminal. See how fast the other centres shape up.

Haha, and you thought traffic was moving slowing the way it is now? It would take them a couple years to get up to speed and many of them wouldn't qualify.

[altiplano]

I disagree.

There are already qualified controllers in the military working terminal seats and towers. They can navigate aircraft to precision approach minima with radar vectors alone and you're trying to tell me they can't control high level airspace? Or let planes connect the dots on YVR arrivals to IFs? Or work VFR tower jobs and clearance delivery?

ATC could literally space it out and assign speeds and let everyone follow the RNAV track to the approach without delivering a single radar vector. Like they do in so many US airports including some of the biggest ones.

Sure maybe some adjustment pains, but then that would be it, it's like Reagan and ATC in '81. He just fired 90% of them and started over.... I would suggest that it's getting to that point here. We can not continue with the status quo.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Make it uncontrolled. At this point, pilots would do a better job themselves. In damn near half the country the IFR airspace is uncontrolled and it’s worked just fine for decades. That was before the time of TCAS, ADS-B, and fancy moving map displays.

[Me262]

bring in military terminal controllers to run Vancouver centre and terminal. See how fast the other centres shape up.

Haha, and you thought traffic was moving slowing the way it is now? It would take them a couple years to get up to speed and many of them wouldn't qualify.

You have no fuckin clue what you are talking about. Have you been in the military? Have you dealt with them at least? Overhead breaks, formation flying, low approaches, PARs, circuits, etc etc, all fitted in, most at the same time. NAV Canada controllers barely hold a candle to their training.

[RunwayWindAltimer]

bring in military terminal controllers to run Vancouver centre and terminal. See how fast the other centres shape up.

Haha, and you thought traffic was moving slowing the way it is now? It would take them a couple years to get up to speed and many of them wouldn't qualify.

You have no fuckin clue what you are talking about. Have you been in the military? Have you dealt with them at least? Overhead breaks, formation flying, low approaches, PARs, circuits, etc etc, all fitted in, most at the same time. NAV Canada controllers barely hold a candle to their training.

It’s hard core up in the Jaw. I have been assured.

[Braun]

bring in military terminal controllers to run Vancouver centre and terminal. See how fast the other centres shape up.

Haha, and you thought traffic was moving slowing the way it is now? It would take them a couple years to get up to speed and many of them wouldn't qualify.

You have no fuckin clue what you are talking about. Have you been in the military? Have you dealt with them at least? Overhead breaks, formation flying, low approaches, PARs, circuits, etc etc, all fitted in, most at the same time. NAV Canada controllers barely hold a candle to their training.

The ~10 trainees that came from the Military that I have seen train in busy complex airspaces would say otherwise haha.

It’s always great to hear how to run a busy terminal from
Pilots taking 80 seconds to vacate a runway that is built for -45 second ROT times.

[rookiepilot]

I first raised an eyebrow about NavCanada when I flew to Ottawa and was lectured by someone in terminal there about how they had no time to handle GA aircraft because they were always too busy. (crickets on the frequency other than me)

Similar story with Winnipeg and Vancouver at other times. Too busy. Go away.

I then flew twice to NYC and then Washington DC and was efficiently handled by approach in both places. Even assisted with navigating around some weather.

Ottawa terminal by contrast -- on a different flight -- tried repeatedly to vector me into a line of weather and got all pissy when I said no way.

But do please continue on those defending NavCan as an organization of excellence to be modeled by the aviation world.

Good organizations take valid criticism and try to improve.

Poor ones make excuses and deflect.