Dreamliner Down in India

[goldeneagle]

It would appear they are hiding their findings; no really surprised here.

That certainly hasn't aged well....

[shamrock104]

Sure did not. I believe that this was known some time ago as there was never any mention or hint of the fleet been grounded: Several posters on here were quick to blast Boeing, will be interesting to hear their views now.

[TCAS II]

The FAA issued Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) No. NM-18-33 on
December 17, 2018, regarding the potential disengagement of the fuel control switch locking
feature. This SAIB was issued based on reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that
the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged. The airworthiness
concern was not considered an unsafe condition that would warrant airworthiness directive
(AD) by the FAA. The fuel control switch design, including the locking feature, is similar on
various Boeing airplane models including part number 4TL837-3D which is fitted in B787-8
aircraft VT-ANB. As per the information from Air India, the suggested inspections were not
carried out as the SAIB was advisory and not mandatory. The scrutiny of maintenance records
revealed that the throttle control module was replaced on VT-ANB in 2019 and 2023.
However, the reason for the replacement was not linked to the fuel control switch. There has
been no defect reported pertaining to the fuel control switch since 2023 on VT-ANB.

[Meatservo]

…so one day airliners will be so automated, the cockpit will be empty except for two buttons: “fly” and “don’t fly”. And there will be a crash because someone presses the “don’t fly” button.

[AV80R]

However, something doesn’t sit right with me with the immediate reply of "I didn't do that" or whatever. I feel like a suicidal person wouldn't have replied at all, or would have made some sort of unrelated personal statement.... Just a gut feeling. This is all just utterly bizarre.
Time may tell. RIP.

To try to cover his ass in case the engines relit before they crashed.

[cncpc]

However, something doesn’t sit right with me with the immediate reply of "I didn't do that" or whatever. I feel like a suicidal person wouldn't have replied at all, or would have made some sort of unrelated personal statement.... Just a gut feeling. This is all just utterly bizarre.
Time may tell. RIP.

To try to cover his ass in case the engines relit before they crashed.

How do you know this?

[SpyPilot]

It's my understanding that the FO was pilot flying and the captain was pilot monitoring.

Make of that what you will but my mind is made up about who actioned the fuel control switches from run to cutoff and who returned them back to run.

[Old fella]

These switches can't just be bumped. They have to very deliberately be lifted and moved. Each.
As far as FO's using them, I'm only making assumptions on Air India's SOP's but should be plenty in the sim, but also starting and shutting down engines on single engine taxi in and out, etc.

Will probably be a while till more info comes out, but I'll be interested in hearing if they were moved after a positive rate call.
If the call wasn't yet made, then it's extremely suggestive of a malicious action. If it was made, well, could still very well be malicious but there's an infinitecimal chance that some other wild human factor came into play. But extremely remote and bizarre.

However, something doesn’t sit right with me with the immediate reply of "I didn't do that" or whatever. I feel like a suicidal person wouldn't have replied at all, or would have made some sort of unrelated personal statement.... Just a gut feeling. This is all just utterly bizarre.
Time may tell. RIP.

Bizarre for sure, wouldn’t be able to look at it in any other way. Speaking of oddities, look at the PIC in regards to ATPL issue, total command time on the B787, previous flying types and overall total flying time. To me, it’s strange, then again licencing requirements in that neck of the woods, who knows.

[daedalusx]

Do the fuel cutoff switches have known issues moving on their own? The fleet should be grounded worldwide until a solution is implemented.

Are you a new Canadian ? That would explain a lot ...

[RB211]

Bizarre for sure, wouldn’t be able to look at it in any other way. Speaking of oddities, look at the PIC in regards to ATPL issue, total command time on the B787, previous flying types and overall total flying time. To me, it’s strange, then again licencing requirements in that neck of the woods, who knows.

Might just be issue date of a new licence booklet? My Canadian one shows issue of 2022 but I’ve had an ATPL for some decades earlier. It is just when latest booklet was issued.

[Dry Guy]

It's my understanding that the FO was pilot flying and the captain was pilot monitoring.

Make of that what you will but my mind is made up about who actioned the fuel control switches from run to cutoff and who returned them back to run.

Me too, the Captain.

[daedalusx]

It's my understanding that the FO was pilot flying and the captain was pilot monitoring.

Make of that what you will but my mind is made up about who actioned the fuel control switches from run to cutoff and who returned them back to run.

Me too, the Captain.

This ^

The FO was PF.
Has 2 hands on the control column during rotation.
Is anyone stupid enough to think that he could reach over and kill not one but both fuel control switches during the initial 3 seconds of liftoff without the capt slapping his hands and immediately putting them back to run

It's pretty obvious what happened here...

[boeingboy]

It's my understanding that the FO was pilot flying and the captain was pilot monitoring.

Make of that what you will but my mind is made up about who actioned the fuel control switches from run to cutoff and who returned them back to run.

Me too, the Captain.

This ^

The FO was PF.
Has 2 hands on the control column during rotation.
Is anyone stupid enough to think that he could reach over and kill not one but both fuel control switches during the initial 3 seconds of liftoff without the capt slapping his hands and immediately putting them back to run

It's pretty obvious what happened here...

I dont fly the dreamliner - but there are many videos out there that show the crew setting takeoff thrust and then removing their hands from the throttles. It has been said from others (that do fly it) that this is because they are in a throttle hold. I would question it if I had not seen it.

The other thing is why did one pilot ask "Why did you do that"? I would think if it was not deliberate that it would be more like "what happened?" or "whats going on?" that was a very deliberate statement. The fact the other guy said "I didn't do it" to me means very little at this point. We have all had situations where someone has been caught red handed doing something only to say it wasn't me or I didn't when you know damn well they did.

[DanWEC]

Well, as a disclaimer, might as well get dark and speculative as f#*k here.
Pilot biographies will be dug into hard now, but the captain apparently wanted to retire early as he was a sole caregiver for his father. I have to say, early retirement for whatever reason isn't exactly that common among airline pilots, even those who are very well off.
So, regardless of the underlying reason: At rotation the capt subtly shuts the cutoffs. Then makes a verbal performance for the CVR.
Doesn't bother fighting and turns them back on, knowing that the damage is done in the time it would take for a relight.
In essence, sewers the plane with the intent of deflecting the blame elsewhere.
Why? Insurance?
PS; As I said, major speculation. Not intending to be in poor taste, but this is already an utterly bizarre accident, and just trying to find pieces that fit together. There's a lot of info left yet to be released.

[Dry Guy]

Interesting theory Dan. That does make sense but how much money could his 80+ year old father need beyond what the son already made?

[planenuts]

Boeing, GE, and Air India all knew what happened the moment it happened. All this data is telemetry - it's constantly being transmitted. I can pull up any one of our 787's right now and tell you exactly what state it's in. Every flight control, pressure, temp, flow, switch, etc....

They probably knew what happened - but they needed to match the data with that of the recorders before they released it. The report also notes an aviation phycologist has been brought in to the investigation and nothing has been released or talked about the crew. These 2 things lead me to suspect they think there is something amiss with the crew themselves.

I agree with the above statement too now that I think about it....the one pilot asking why did you do that. He could probably see it with his peripheral vision and hear the click of the switch. Asking why you did that is a very accusational question rather than total surprise at something unexpected happening.

[cdnavater]

Boeing, GE, and Air India all knew what happened the moment it happened. All this data is telemetry - it's constantly being transmitted. I can pull up any one of our 787's right now and tell you exactly what state it's in. Every flight control, pressure, temp, flow, switch, etc....

They probably knew what happened - but they needed to match the data with that of the recorders before they released it. The report also notes an aviation phycologist has been brought in to the investigation and nothing has been released or talked about the crew. These 2 things lead me to suspect they think there is something amiss with the crew themselves.

I agree with the above statement too now that I think about it....the one pilot asking why did you do that. He could probably see it with his peripheral vision and hear the click of the switch. Asking why you did that is a very accusational question rather than total surprise at something unexpected happening.

Hence the aviation psychologist.

[digits_]

and just trying to find pieces that fit together. There's a lot of info left yet to be released.

How would this fit together? Do sole caregivers usually not do whatever they can for their -supposedly- loved one in their care?

If true, it's more of an argument against an intentional shutdown IMO.

[vrefplus5]

[quote="Dry Guy" post_id=1342216 time=1752372443 user_id=

We have all had situations where someone has been caught red handed doing something only to say it wasn't me or I didn't when you know damn well they did.

Shaggy knows this well

[DanWEC]

and just trying to find pieces that fit together. There's a lot of info left yet to be released.

How would this fit together? Do sole caregivers usually not do whatever they can for their -supposedly- loved one in their care?

If true, it's more of an argument against an intentional shutdown IMO.

Not going that far into making any presumptions. No idea, no info. Just stating some facts and the point that retiring early is a bit of a rarity in our industry.

[Old fella]

DanWec and Planenuts put together a very interesting “ human factors “ stance. Going forward in the investigation will probably head in that direction.

[Dry Guy]

Mmm I don't buy it. Nobody is going to kill themselves and hundreds of strangers for an insurance payout to their aged father that has no one but themselves to care for them.

[DanWEC]

That's going way further into the realm of speculation. Never said that was the reason, I merely think it could be a case of deflecting blame, for whatever reason. We don't know anything else.

[Old fella]

That's going way further into the realm of speculation. Never said that was the reason, I merely think it could be a case of deflecting blame, for whatever reason. We don't know anything else.

Air India spin possibly as follows: Unbeknown to us at Air India, the Captain was under serious stress/strain due a compromising family situation. Due to possible mental confusion and lapse, the fuel switches were placed in cut-off mode, realizing the gravity of his action, recovery was initiated, switches placed in run mode however altitude was compromised and relight couldn’t happen in time to avert impact resulting in a tragic loss of all passengers and crew.

[DanWEC]

If things go in that direction, that's a very accurate and possible statement.