GETTING AN EDUCATION

[JACKASS]

Why is it that most pilots outside of Major Airlines and the Military look down on pilots with post secondary education. It seems to me that if everyone who has ever made a post about working conditions on this website, had another way of creating income and flying on their own terms working conditions would improve dramatically.

P.S. on a side note to become an airline pilot or fly for the military (with the exception of WJ) you must either have a degree or achive one while working. Now I'm not sure about corprate pilots but I imagine most companies who fly their executives around would like to know that the person at the controls has the ability to pass eng 101. Their is probably a reason that those institutions require an education. I'm not trying to say that education makes them a better pilot. What it does do is show an employer you have two abilty's. One is that you can teach yourself and the other is that you have perserverance. More importantly it opens doors so if you don't like the conditions in which you work your better positioned to either do something about them or underrstand why the conditions are the way they are and minimze their effect on you.

[wallypilot]

I don't think you need a degree to do well in canadian aviation. Air Canada doesn't require a degree, although haveing one does improve your chances.

In general, though, I really don't think that a degree makes you a better pilot. I have a degree, and it was one of the best things i ever did. But i don't think it has any reflection on my flying ability. Basically, the university education gives you a more well rounded individual. That doesn't make him/her better. I have met many people who have only completed high school and went straight into flying school and they now they are well accomplished, intuitive pilots with decent jobs. Basically, if you feel you want the degree, go for it. It can only help you. But I don't feel that the degree is necessary to get anywhere in aviation in Canada. From my experience, the corporate flight departments that I know about do not require degrees.

To answer your question about others looking down on those with degrees: it is a natural defensive reaction. They feel inferior (whether they actually are or not) and become defensive, or have to put others down to make themselves feel better about their inadequate selves. An objective, truly self confident person would have no need to look down on, or put down others.

My $.02
WP

[Flybabe]

No education is bad education!!!!

I know of quite a few pilots (myself included) that are working on degrees as they fly, some pertinent to aviation some not. Mine isn't.

In my line of work though I'm constantly discouraged from pursuing that piece of paper with reasons like "You don't have time for that" or "what do you want THAT for?". I also agree with the comment that some of those that don't have the drive to get further education look down on those that do. Oh well. In my mind it shows that I have the ability to learn something other than flying and that I'm adaptable.

'Course.. maybe I need to learn how to fly better

[hz2p]

You sure as heck don't need a degree to pilot any certificated aircraft. They are designed by the manufacturers to be easily flown by the weakest licenced pilot.

However, there is more to life than just being a pilot.

[just curious]

True it isn't a real drawing card other than for the military or cyciclally for the airlines.
But Education be it University, College, or some sort of skilled trade; is going to be vital the day you walk into a medical and get a liver chip light.

[cyyz]

However, there is more to life than just being a pilot.

Yes, *runs of to get a PhD in Theology and a Masters in Basket Weaving*

"Education" is a piece of paper that's given out left right and center.. The Ontario Universities expanded so they could take the extra 50k students in the double cohort year, now they have too much room and not enough applicants. You can get into almost any school with a 50 avg.

They won't dare fail you even if you're a stupid brick because if they have more failures in the bell curve that will reflect poorly on the academy. So they'll pass a good chunk of stupid people.

Now you have a bunch of stupid people running around with degrees, just like aviation everyone can get a license, just because you have a license or a degree doesn't make you "smart" or a good "pilot"..

You can get a windmill degree for almost under $5k. You can wipe your ass with it. No one will respect you more for it, but you're right it will help you get your foot a little further in the door.

[greenwich]

Jackass:
Great question! I felt like I had to take my Degree off my resume when I went on my road-trip up North years ago!! I just had a gut feeling that most Northern operators would look down on me because I had an education! In the end I got my first ramp job from a guy who believed in education, so it all worked out!!

I think 'wallypilot' hit all the points on the head! There's no way a Degree can make anyone a better pilot...but a Degree certainly makes a more well-rounded employee! And if a Degree causes an employer to look twice at a resume, or put a resume to the top of the pile, then the Degree is certainly worth its weight!

As 'flybabe' put it: "no education is bad education"

I meet a lot of great 17 and 18 year old high school kids who come through the office asking questions about the possibility of flying as a career. I always enjoy taking a little extra time showing them around the hangars, aircraft, office, etc. and filling them in on the aviation industry. But the one thing I recommend to all of them is to go to University or College, get a degree, and start flying school when they graduate! They will be 21 or 22 when they start flying, and they will still hit 4,000 hours before they are 30! And the best part is that they will have grown as individuals and will always have something to fall back on!

G

[desksgo]

Now, you guys are talking about a REAL education right, not these glorified groundschools that some places have running right? University Degree...right?? If so, I agree completely. This industry, considering all of it's power and financial consequences, has to be the most undereducated industry in the world. Now for you "fly by the seat of the pants" folks, I am not talking about education that keeps you from flying into power lines, I am talking about education that keeps the industry thriving and companies in business. This lack of education and foresight has lead aviation into the deplorable situation in which it finds itself today.

Greenwhich, I know how it is. You put an education on your resume, and you become some pompus rich kid that knows it all. Whereas the schlub who barely gets through highschool is better received at his first job. IT'S GONNA CHANGE!

[desksgo]

However, there is more to life than just being a pilot.

just because you have a license or a degree doesn't make you "smart" or a good "pilot"..

And sir you are quite correct, but just because one barely gets through highschool but has flown an airplane for 5 years, doesn't mean they should be the one's running this industry into the ground. We don't need anymore pilots, we need some industry professionals...WHERE ELSE WOULD YOU FIND THOSE? Your local flying school?

[shwaman]

while I don't want to start a debate on here...I agree, a degree does not make you a better pilot, or for that matter a better person. But it is never a waste and does show a certain level of drive and achievement. As for what cyyz has posted, sure some degree programs are more involved than others, but unless things have changed since I have graduated from university, there is no chance in hell that you can be accepted with a 50 avg! Your statement sounds a little off the cuff, with not much empirical support to it.

[Mach1]

To answer your question about others looking down on those with degrees: it is a natural defensive reaction. They feel inferior (whether they actually are or not) and become defensive, or have to put others down to make themselves feel better about their inadequate selves.

You mean like that? Read that quote carefully, it reeks of superiority and attitude. It is statements like that which reflect badly upon the “I have a degree” crowd. Those words just flow so effortlessly off the tongue of the college/university grad and promptly offend most of the people in the room and then you wonder why your not well liked by your peers.

on a side note to become an airline pilot... you must either have a degree or achive one while working.

Where did you get that from? Have you looked at the Air Canada website lately? Use that degree and do your research.

An objective, truly self confident person would have no need to look down on, or put down others.

If you live by that quote, you will have no problems. I once worked with a 250-hour wonder that proclaimed that he “should be making the most money of anyone who works here because I am the only one here with both a college diploma and a university degree.” How well liked do you think he was amongst his peers, all of whom had far more experience than this kid.

You have no one to blame but yourselves.

[cyyz]

I am talking about education that keeps the industry thriving and companies in business. This lack of education and foresight has lead aviation into the deplorable situation in which it finds itself today.

we don't need anymore pilots, we need some industry professionals...WHERE ELSE WOULD YOU FIND THOSE?

"Mr. Milton graduated in 1983 From Georgia Institute of Technology with a Bachelor of Science Degree in Industrial Management."

http://www.aircanada.ca/about-us/media/bio/milton.html

"Mr. Milton initially joined Air Canada in May 1992 "

A fine job he and his education have done for the company..

[cyyz]

unless things have changed since I have graduated from university, there is no chance in hell that you can be accepted with a 50 avg! Your statement sounds a little off the cuff, with not much empirical support to it.

Do a google, enrollment has decreased this year because the universities have less people applying. They weasled millions from the government so they could expand for the "double cohort." Even a grade one student could explain the logical flaw the gov't and universities "missed"..

If we were running the system which you're familiar with where not everyone got to go, before the bleeding hearts ruined the system, sure I would be in the wrong, and people would be smart. But this year, you'll get into any university, you just need to apply. Slots are open and they'll take anything they can get. Making the value of the "degree" meaningless.

I can swear to you courses are much lighter and easier now then they were decades ago.

I got a C+, b- and a B for not even attending classes. You just need to be smart about the courses you pick and you'll graduate without even attending a single class*... I got an F in a class I did attend and handed in all assignments(*stupid mandatory classes).

[JACKASS]

from AC website

[/quote]Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

University degree or college diploma
Aviation College diploma
Military or commercial flight experience
Jet and/or glass cockpit experience
Additional language(s) [/quote]

[cyyz]

To answer your question about others looking down on those with degrees: it is a natural defensive reaction. They feel inferior (whether they actually are or not) and become defensive, or have to put others down to make themselves feel better about their inadequate selves.

You mean like that? Read that quote carefully, it reeks of superiority and attitude. It is statements like that which reflect badly upon the “I have a degree” crowd. Those words just flow so effortlessly off the tongue of the college/university grad and promptly offend most of the people in the room and then you wonder why your not well liked by your peers.

Yes, exactly. Mach1 is wise.... All the "highly" educated people who whine about not being able to find a job, how the economy is bust and no jobs to be found. But god forbid they take a McJob. But that's after all beneath them, 'cause they have a PhD in Theology.

But as everyone has mentioned the degree will get you a step closer into Air Canada's door.

Great if it does, and congrats. But maybe they should get off their podiums and realise they're just people..

Hitler once thought he was part of the master race didn't he?

Just bring the ego's down a notch and we'll all do just fine..

[cyyz]

Good luck getting hired with a high school diploma

Good luck getting hired when they're not hiring..

Great to see education pays off.

[shitdisturber]

To answer your question about others looking down on those with degrees: it is a natural defensive reaction. They feel inferior (whether they actually are or not) and become defensive, or have to put others down to make themselves feel better about their inadequate selves. An objective, truly self confident person would have no need to look down on, or put down others.


WP

That has got to be right up at the top of the list for "worst drivel ever posted!" To who ever it was who posted the original question about why some people look down on those with higher degrees, you now have your answer. Wally is trying to portray himself as your every day type of guy who just happens to have a degree. The problem is, his statement reeks of arrogance and i'm reasonably sure it shines through in his every word and deed. It's the arrogance, not the piece of paper that gets you into trouble; operators that won't look at an individual with a degree, have probably developed that attitude after having been burned too often by some "no account college boy!"

A degree is just a piece of paper that says you had some money to spend; it doesn't mark you as a better or worse pilot or person. Over the years, i've run into some Grade A morons with engineering degrees; and some really bright people, who never finished high school. It's all about opportunity not ability.

[greenwich]

desksgo:
Very good points!! I didn't think of the fact that most people running this industry (except for a few executives who run the major airlines) are pilots with no more than a 'high school' education!

Go and study any of Canada's most successful companies and you will find that all of their top-level management are all well educated! And you will also find that any top-level manager/V.P./etc. who worked his/her way up the corporate ladder without an education did, at some point, go back to school and get an Executive MBA or something similar!

If I look back at the three charter operators I have worked for so far in my carreer, all were equally as 'messed-up'! In fact a couple were down right disasters...but somehow they just kept operating! Of all three companies not a single manager, vice president, president, owner, ops-manager, chief pilot, had more than a high shool diploma (and a full log book)!!

Makes you think!!

G

[Mostly Harmless]

"Mr. Milton graduated in 1983 From Georgia Institute of Technology with a Bachelor of Science Degree in Industrial Management."

http://www.aircanada.ca/about-us/media/bio/milton.html

"Mr. Milton initially joined Air Canada in May 1992 "

A fine job he and his education have done for the company..

Cyyz – absolutely brilliant!! Direct, to the point and perfectly stated.

The problem has long been that people mistake education for intelligence. Big mistake. Many of the worlds leading innovators never finished any formal schooling. Check your attitude at the door and get the job done. Who knows, you might learn a thing or two after graduation.

[JACKASS]

I believe the Idea of a degree is grossly misunderstood. The idea of the recipiant having the degree because he is rich.

That's laughable. Where I went to school, 90% of the people I knew had student loans paying their tuition.

As far as grads being arragant. I can't speak for everyone but I'm dam proud of what I accomplished, It took alot of time and effort.

My question is why in an industry that has some of the worst working conditions in Canada, is having an education a bad thing till you get to a Major Airline??????????

[Mostly Harmless]

My question is why in an industry that has some of the worst working conditions in Canada, is having an education a bad thing till you get to a Major Airline??????????

Your question has already been answered. Here I will simplify it for you. Attitude.

[greenwich]

Note to 'mostlyharmless' and 'cyyz':

I love your little Robert Milton/Air Canada angle. You seem to be thrilled with the fact that you have been able to draw a link between Mr. Milton, the fact that he has an education, and a floundering Air Canada!

Listen to yourselves: 'Robert Milton is educated...Air Canada is collapsing...therefor education is obviously useless!'

Please don't tell me that you both believe that Robert Milton is souly responsable for AC's demise?!?!? Remember, Milton is part of a large governing Board of Directors...he runs a company where the unions have a massive amount of control...and AC is public, meaning the shareholder also has contro, and Milton answers to the shareholderl!!

G

[Mostly Harmless]

Ah yes, the infamous “It’s all the union’s fault” argument. No, I don’t think that Robert Milton is the sole cause of Air Canada’s problems any more than I think that the Unions are solely responsible. However, Robert is the president, and therefore should lead. Since he has lead Air Canada into insolvency, he should take responsibility for his own actions and those of the management team that HE chose.

The major point being, that his educational status did not help him and he certainly is not acting in professional manner (as implied earlier that having an education makes you a professional). It was also implied that the only reason that aviation companies were screwed up is because they were not being run by University graduates. My point is that it didn't seem to make a difference there did it?

[greenwich]

Harmless:

So essentially you are saying that a bunch of high school graduates may have done a better job with A/C than Milton and his current group of Lawyers, MBA's, Business School grads, etc.

Not likely!

One of the problems with pilots is that we all live in our own little world and have very little exposure to other facets of life like the 'corporate world'! We start flying at 18, get our first ramp job at 20, and then wake-up one day in the left seat of a Boeing!

[smartass]

A degree is just a piece of paper that says you had some money to spend; it doesn't mark you as a better or worse pilot or person. Over the years, i've run into some Grade A morons with engineering degrees; and some really bright people, who never finished high school. It's all about opportunity not ability.

Wow... It's funny how quickly ignorance transfers to assumed intelligance.

A degree is a series of tests determining whether or not you are able to take in a certain level of knowledge. I have a degree and work with a lot of uneducated people spouting the same views as you just have. "Says you had some money to spend?" What kind of B.S. is this??? How about, "Says you had the initiative to go out and learn something rather than be satisfied sitting at home watching Jerry Springer."

How did you judge these people as grade A morons or really bright. I know of surgeons who couldn't write a legible sentence... are they grade A morons? I know of Lawyers who would try and drive a nail sideways... are they grade A morons? I know of individuals who would score with IQ's of less then 50 but could tell me exactly what is wrong with my car before they even hoist it... are they really bright?

If you have no education in the areas of their education then how can you make any sort of judgement on their intelligence. That's about as ignorant as stating that Milton had a degree so no wonder he blew it. Should we elect a President when he has no experience in Politics?

A degree simply shows a proficiency in a certain subject. If you want to transfer it to a level of intelligence then certainly go ahead. In my opinion, almost anyone can achieve a degree given enough time and money, but like high school, grades and years, will quickly tell how well they understand the subject at hand.

As we all know, a Cpl doesn't mean that you're a good pilot... it means that you worked long enough to achieve a level of proficiency in piloting.

On the other hand does anyone here have the gull to debate whether an individual with three doctrates in Science, Law, and History, could possibly be a grade A Moron? Are there any grade A Moron's that would like to step forward?