150 Pilots forced move out of YYZ

[PittBoss]

With the forced moved out of YYZ for Pilots who all planning to go to AC ?

AC will be quite happy to welcome WJ's skilled pilots.

[safetyfirst123]

With the forced moved out of YYZ for Pilots who all planning to go to AC ?

AC will be quite happy to welcome WJ's skilled pilots.

It will be interesting to see how long until vacancies come up in YYZ again, and whether this is a game or poor planning. Either way, it's hard to criticize YYZ pilots who choose to leave, and it will cost the company a lot of money in the long run (much like cancelling 787 orders a few years ago is costing them now).

[daedalusx]

Why should they stay ?
This company is awful.

[JungleRiot]

Why should they stay ?
This company is awful.

As opposed to what? Flat pay and working 18+ days per month? Also, the reduction bid at WJ can been cancelled until further notice

[safetyfirst123]

Why should they stay ?
This company is awful.

As opposed to what? Flat pay and working 18+ days per month? Also, the reduction bid at WJ can been cancelled until further notice

For YYZ based pilots, it's not an easy pill to swallow to commute and wait approximately ten years before upgrading. Flat pay and 18 days per month (depends on the airplane you get at AC), but not commuting and quicker upgrades are big benefits, especially if you are not too old and decrepit. If you are old and junior at Westjet, then I don't know what to tell you.

[JungleRiot]

Why should they stay ?
This company is awful.

As opposed to what? Flat pay and working 18+ days per month? Also, the reduction bid at WJ can been cancelled until further notice

For YYZ based pilots, it's not an easy pill to swallow to commute and wait approximately ten years before upgrading. Flat pay and 18 days per month (depends on the airplane you get at AC), but not commuting and quicker upgrades are big benefits, especially if you are not too old and decrepit. If you are old and junior at Westjet, then I don't know what to tell you.

And people aren't forced to commute at AC? Life as a WJ driver is much more flexible than at AC. In the 2 years, I've only been screwed schedule wise maybe twice, but that's why we use our schedule adjustment window to fix the schedule to yoyr liking. Short upgrade time at AC doesn't mean anything, it just means you get to go to the bottom of the list and can forget about weekends and holidays for the next 25 years.

[safetyfirst123]

As opposed to what? Flat pay and working 18+ days per month? Also, the reduction bid at WJ can been cancelled until further notice

For YYZ based pilots, it's not an easy pill to swallow to commute and wait approximately ten years before upgrading. Flat pay and 18 days per month (depends on the airplane you get at AC), but not commuting and quicker upgrades are big benefits, especially if you are not too old and decrepit. If you are old and junior at Westjet, then I don't know what to tell you.

And people aren't forced to commute at AC? Life as a WJ driver is much more flexible than at AC. In the 2 years, I've only been screwed schedule wise maybe twice, but that's why we use our schedule adjustment window to fix the schedule to yoyr liking. Short upgrade time at AC doesn't mean anything, it just means you get to go to the bottom of the list and can forget about weekends and holidays for the next 25 years.

I'm speaking about junior Westjet pilots based in YYZ. It's a clear decision to go to AC.

Short upgrade time doesn't mean anything??? Incredible. Although I anticipate vacancies in YYZ soon enough, what happens if the 787 is grounded? What happens if the economy goes into a nasty recession with everything going on? Again, it's a really clear decision for any junior YYZ pilot at Westjet to go to AC, and that mismanagement will cost Westjet money in the end.

[JBI]

I definitely expect that WJ will lose many YYZ/YUL and former SWG YQB based pilots to AC, Porter and others. Commuting is not fun.

While I'm sure the company has factored in attrition to its planning numbers and budget, I'd wager that they have underestimated the numbers for attrition.

On the now cancelled/postponed integration bid, there was quite a bit of growth in Vancouver. I'm curious where those crews will be deployed and where the increased block hours for the base will come from. While yes, there will be some increased vacation flying with the merger - where do the rest of the block hours come from?

[cdnavater]

I definitely expect that WJ will lose many YYZ/YUL and former SWG YQB based pilots to AC, Porter and others. Commuting is not fun.

While I'm sure the company has factored in attrition to its planning numbers and budget, I'd wager that they have underestimated the numbers for attrition.

On the now cancelled/postponed integration bid, there was quite a bit of growth in Vancouver. I'm curious where those crews will be deployed and where the increased block hours for the base will come from. While yes, there will be some increased vacation flying with the merger - where do the rest of the block hours come from?

I think the timing of this is in WJ’s favour, for attrition to be a problem, there needs to be enough hiring and I see that as slowing down significantly near term.

[goingnowherefast]

Porter is still running e2 ground schools all summer. Are they still doing e2 DEC? How big are the classes?

[phenix]

A reduction bid or a full rebid are the only ways to get everybody back on seniority order. Without that bid, some Captains from Sunwing would be out of seniority. A rebid was expected on the 1 year anniversary of the arbitration, it doesn’t come as a surprise.

SWG workforce was heavily based East, WestJet workforce is heavily based West. A reduction of YYZ/YUL was also anticipated. The writing was on the wall. I assume everybody concerned could see that coming, and people who were going to leave are already gone. I’m sure the company is expecting more people to quit and I doubt they will be too fazed by it. With 60 new hires in the last 1.5 year, there is room to accelerate the hiring if needed.

[fish4life]

For YYZ based pilots, it's not an easy pill to swallow to commute and wait approximately ten years before upgrading. Flat pay and 18 days per month (depends on the airplane you get at AC), but not commuting and quicker upgrades are big benefits, especially if you are not too old and decrepit. If you are old and junior at Westjet, then I don't know what to tell you.

And people aren't forced to commute at AC? Life as a WJ driver is much more flexible than at AC. In the 2 years, I've only been screwed schedule wise maybe twice, but that's why we use our schedule adjustment window to fix the schedule to yoyr liking. Short upgrade time at AC doesn't mean anything, it just means you get to go to the bottom of the list and can forget about weekends and holidays for the next 25 years.

I'm speaking about junior Westjet pilots based in YYZ. It's a clear decision to go to AC.

Short upgrade time doesn't mean anything??? Incredible. Although I anticipate vacancies in YYZ soon enough, what happens if the 787 is grounded? What happens if the economy goes into a nasty recession with everything going on? Again, it's a really clear decision for any junior YYZ pilot at Westjet to go to AC, and that mismanagement will cost Westjet money in the end.

If the 787 is grounded it’s going to screw us at AC a lot more than WJ. They barely have any of their fleet as 787’s so I wouldn’t use that as a consideration to come to AC.

[BigQ]

Wait til WJ actually looks at the volume of flying SWG was doing in the East, and then deplores the lack of pilots in the East to counter weather-related IROPS.

The idiots who agreed to a full reduction bid without seeing 1 winter's worth of flying fully integrated first are gonna look real smart to ONEX. 198 pilots getting displaced is going to be a hefty moving and retraining bill.

("198" comes a recent mock bid update that sees many downgrades and 150 pilots forced to leave their current bases)

[Speedbrakes]

Porter is still running e2 ground schools all summer. Are they still doing e2 DEC? How big are the classes?

Yes. Ground schools are usually 15-25 pilots with a couple DECs sprinkled in.

[flieslikeachicken]

Wait til WJ actually looks at the volume of flying SWG was doing in the East, and then deplores the lack of pilots in the East to counter weather-related IROPS.

The idiots who agreed to a full reduction bid without seeing 1 winter's worth of flying fully integrated first are gonna look real smart to ONEX. 198 pilots getting displaced is going to be a hefty moving and retraining bill.

("198" comes a recent mock bid update that sees many downgrades and 150 pilots forced to leave their current bases)

WestJet is headed by the same people who fired pilots during COVID for taking too much sick time, didn't pick up enough overtime, or were not in management's good books. It's not surprising that they are treating pilots as positions that can be filled and dumped whenever they so choose. The same management that only weeks ago made comments about laying off pilots on the jets while saying that there is a pilot shortage necessitating TFWs at Encore.

There is an easy solution: merge Encore into WestJet and allow ARs to fly at Encore. That and to stop buying airlines that have never made a profit.

[safetyfirst123]

Which unprofitable airlines did they buy?

[flieslikeachicken]

Which unprofitable airlines did they buy?

Sunwing Airlines was never designed to be profitable. It was an airline designed to prevent the issues that Sunwing Vacations had with their CPA partners going out of business. They were so often delayed that it was surprising when they were on time. They partnered with European airlines that saw safety as an inconvenience instead of a goal.

[Gicash09]

Which unprofitable airlines did they buy?

Sunwing Airlines was never designed to be profitable. It was an airline designed to prevent the issues that Sunwing Vacations had with their CPA partners going out of business. They were so often delayed that it was surprising when they were on time. They partnered with European airlines that saw safety as an inconvenience instead of a goal.

You’re making some pretty bold claims that don’t reflect how airline operations, safety regulations, or partnerships actually work.

First, Sunwing Airlines was absolutely designed to be profitable — no airline starts up with the intent to lose money. Their model focused on serving Sunwing Vacations with a low-cost charter airline, not on fixing CPA partner failures. That’s a business strategy, not a flaw.

Second, accusing European partner airlines of treating safety as an “inconvenience” is not only false — it’s irresponsible. European airlines operate under EASA, one of the strictest aviation safety authorities in the world. Suggesting they don’t care about safety is a serious accusation without any factual basis.

If delays happened, they were likely due to tight turnaround schedules, seasonal surges, or slot restrictions — common issues in leisure charters, not safety negligence.

So let’s stick to facts and not throw around reckless generalizations. If you have actual data or credible sources to support what you’re saying, feel free to share. Otherwise, this sounds like pure speculation.

[safetyfirst123]

I think it's fair to say that Sunwing Airlines itself was not designed to be profitable, but rather to reduce costs for the Sunwing Group, and as such increase profits overall. Onex (Westjet) bought Sunwing Airlines and Sunwing Vacations as an opportunity to merge Sunwing Airlines into Westjet Airlines, and Westjet Vacations into Sunwing Vacations. Clearly synergies were seen as an opportunity to boost profits overall. If done properly, this should be a boost for all involved. My big worry is with Westjet reducing capacity in YYZ and elsewhere out east, whether they're giving up market share and profits to Air Canada and Air Transat. Time will tell.

[flieslikeachicken]

Edit: For the record, I am not claiming that Sunwing is unsafe. They addressed the safety concerns with the incoming aircraft prior to entering them into service on Sunwing flights.

You’re making some pretty bold claims that don’t reflect how airline operations, safety regulations, or partnerships actually work.

First, Sunwing Airlines was absolutely designed to be profitable — no airline starts up with the intent to lose money. Their model focused on serving Sunwing Vacations with a low-cost charter airline, not on fixing CPA partner failures. That’s a business strategy, not a flaw.

A business strategy of decreasing costs on one end to increase profits on another end. Either way, the airline itself never brought a profit because it was never designed or operated to bring a profit.

Second, accusing European partner airlines of treating safety as an “inconvenience” is not only false — it’s irresponsible. European airlines operate under EASA, one of the strictest aviation safety authorities in the world. Suggesting they don’t care about safety is a serious accusation without any factual basis.

Smartwings (Formerly Travel Service) has a documented history of poor maintenance and pilot decision making. A few years back Sunwing had to replace or fix a couple hundred seats on incoming leased aircraft. One aircraft also had an engine failure on route to Toronto and had to have it's engine replaced before entering service. I can say as a matter of fact that at least one of Sunwing's partner airlines that it leased aircraft from during the winter is a threat to life and safety of it's passengers.

If delays happened, they were likely due to tight turnaround schedules, seasonal surges, or slot restrictions — common issues in leisure charters, not safety negligence.

Choices. Some airlines try to squeeze every drop from the lemon at the risk of squeezing the bitter rind whereas other airlines leave a margin to make sure that all they get is the juice. In airline terms, Sunwing chose packing the schedule so tight that any delay rippled across several flights instead of leaving a bit of slack to allow for inevitable delays.

So let’s stick to facts and not throw around reckless generalizations. If you have actual data or credible sources to support what you’re saying, feel free to share. Otherwise, this sounds like pure speculation. [/b]

Aside from my personal experiences which cannot be verified, you can look on AvHerald to see that my claims regarding Smartwings are correct and concerning.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4cbe8434&opt=0

[garfield]

Are they planning a reduction bid in YUL as well?

If yes, when do you guess they will start hiring again for that base?

Thanks

[nohojob]

Yul saw a reduction of about 6 fo positions and an addition of about 6 captain positions.

[flying4dollars]

As opposed to what? Flat pay and working 18+ days per month? Also, the reduction bid at WJ can been cancelled until further notice

For YYZ based pilots, it's not an easy pill to swallow to commute and wait approximately ten years before upgrading. Flat pay and 18 days per month (depends on the airplane you get at AC), but not commuting and quicker upgrades are big benefits, especially if you are not too old and decrepit. If you are old and junior at Westjet, then I don't know what to tell you.

And people aren't forced to commute at AC? Life as a WJ driver is much more flexible than at AC. In the 2 years, I've only been screwed schedule wise maybe twice, but that's why we use our schedule adjustment window to fix the schedule to yoyr liking. Short upgrade time at AC doesn't mean anything, it just means you get to go to the bottom of the list and can forget about weekends and holidays for the next 25 years.

False. 25 years? LOL. I'm a very junior 320 skipper at AC. I usually get a couple weekends off each month. I've also had many holidays and even xmas off twice in my 3 years here (and I didn't even ask for it). Generally I agree, bottom of the list NB skipper at AC sucks in terms of schedule, but only as a commuter. If I lived in YYZ, this job would be like semi retirement. I am not exaggerating. This is of course relative to the geopolitical environment but Between January - June, I had to beg crew sked to give me flying just so I don't have to sit around my crash pad in yyz twidling my thumbs.

Not encouraging anyone to make the switch, just offering a realistic perspective from someone who knows about junior reserve.

[Hangry]

It is quite remarkable the kool aid still exists at WJ. Coping mechanism most likely at this point. Obviously talking about the ones still spewing this stuff.

[truecolours]

It’s funny how many think fast upgrades at AC will continue forever.

Think about your age.

Think about the age if everyone hired there over the last few years.