Why WestJet?

[safetyfirst123]

Max auto is right.
Though I am wondering why management did so ?

it was pretty dirty, maybe the Sunwing captains should all be downgraded. What a shame they didn't keep two OC's, similar to rouge, one contract, two OC's with the ability to bid mainline or LCC/Leisure just like AC/Rouge. Morale would have been much higher.

[nohojob]

Max auto is right.
Though I am wondering why management did so ?

it was pretty dirty, maybe the Sunwing captains should all be downgraded. What a shame they didn't keep two OC's, similar to rouge, one contract, two OC's with the ability to bid mainline or LCC/Leisure just like AC/Rouge. Morale would have been much higher.

Why should they all be downgraded ?

[safetyfirst123]

Max auto is right.
Though I am wondering why management did so ?

it was pretty dirty, maybe the Sunwing captains should all be downgraded. What a shame they didn't keep two OC's, similar to rouge, one contract, two OC's with the ability to bid mainline or LCC/Leisure just like AC/Rouge. Morale would have been much higher.

Why should they all be downgraded ?

If 10 year plus Sunwing FO's aren't qualified, then Sunwing captains aren't either

[nohojob]

[JBI]

Sunwing FO's were allowed to bid for upgrades, if their seniority allowed of course. They secretly changed the upgrade requirements after the fact, and a revised bid award had taken away the upgrade for the Sunwing FO's that held left seat. It's unbelievable how management and the Westjet union are colluding to divide the pilot groups. The Westjet union fought in the last contract to integrate Sunwing Airlines into Westjet, effectively killing off Sunwing Airlines. Funny enough, the growth in flying at Westjet is pretty much leisure Sunwing flying with the decimation of US flying. It wouldn't surprise me if Westjet were facing layoffs right now if it weren't for the integration of Sunwing, yet they're doing so much to divide the two groups. What a shame.

How is there colluding between the union and Management? The PTM is strictly a Management controlled document and, unfortunately, due to past grievances prior to the SWG merger, it's been shown that the company has the authority to make changes to it.

Don't get me wrong, I do not condone what Management has done. It doesn't make sense and unfairly punishes SWG FOs who chose not to upgrade due to lifestyle and family reasons. But not sure how the union is at fault for a Management decision on a Management right.

[safetyfirst123]

Sunwing FO's were allowed to bid for upgrades, if their seniority allowed of course. They secretly changed the upgrade requirements after the fact, and a revised bid award had taken away the upgrade for the Sunwing FO's that held left seat. It's unbelievable how management and the Westjet union are colluding to divide the pilot groups. The Westjet union fought in the last contract to integrate Sunwing Airlines into Westjet, effectively killing off Sunwing Airlines. Funny enough, the growth in flying at Westjet is pretty much leisure Sunwing flying with the decimation of US flying. It wouldn't surprise me if Westjet were facing layoffs right now if it weren't for the integration of Sunwing, yet they're doing so much to divide the two groups. What a shame.

How is there colluding between the union and Management? The PTM is strictly a Management controlled document and, unfortunately, due to past grievances prior to the SWG merger, it's been shown that the company has the authority to make changes to it.

Don't get me wrong, I do not condone what Management has done. It doesn't make sense and unfairly punishes SWG FOs who chose not to upgrade due to lifestyle and family reasons. But not sure how the union is at fault for a Management decision on a Management right.

In fairness I can't prove one way or another, but something stinks. The fact that the wording was changed after the fact, that there was an original award with the Sunwing upgrades, and a revised award without them. The way this whole reduction bid was done stinks, and I'm curious to see what future bids will look like.

[safetyfirst123]

To elaborate a little bit, there's a very strong sense that this aptly named "Sunwing Reduction Bid" was really designed to downgrade junior Sunwing captains who as mentioned above were "out of place." I get why Westjet pilots are unhappy with aspects of the arbitration, but it feels as though efforts are being made to punish Sunwing pilots for their overall success in the process. Yes on average Sunwing pilots gained seniority with respect to date of hire, but they lost on relative seniority and they lost working at a company with quick progression and strong lifestyle. The reduction bid, and the subsequent amendment that not only prohibits Sunwing FO's from upgrading now, but also have to fly 1,000 hours at Westjet before they are eligible to upgrade, really screams of dirty backroom deals. Westjet FO's are now benefiting from quicker upgrades thanks to the flying that Sunwing brought in and also from blocking Sunwing FO's from being able to bid for these upgrades.

[JBI]

To elaborate a little bit, there's a very strong sense that this aptly named "Sunwing Reduction Bid" was really designed to downgrade junior Sunwing captains who as mentioned above were "out of place." I get why Westjet pilots are unhappy with aspects of the arbitration, but it feels as though efforts are being made to punish Sunwing pilots for their overall success in the process. Yes on average Sunwing pilots gained seniority with respect to date of hire, but they lost on relative seniority and they lost working at a company with quick progression and strong lifestyle. The reduction bid, and the subsequent amendment that not only prohibits Sunwing FO's from upgrading now, but also have to fly 1,000 hours at Westjet before they are eligible to upgrade, really screams of dirty backroom deals. Westjet FO's are now benefiting from quicker upgrades thanks to the flying that Sunwing brought in and also from blocking Sunwing FO's from being able to bid for these upgrades.

A lot to unpack here.

I'll start on the main issue with respect to the changing of the PTM Experience Requirements. I don't know that back story as to why this was changed by management. In the past, experience requirements have been changed somewhat unilaterally and, again unfortunately, there's almost nothing the union can do. The union isn't perfect but any means, but that's a pretty strong accusation without any evidence on an item that the union has no control over. I'll further reiterate, I do agree with your position that this was an unfair thing for management to do - I don't agree nor do I condone it.

As for the merger bid, the Contract Section that the process followed was "a Reduction bid without layoffs" and it ultimately did lead to former SWG Captains losing their left seat 12 months after the merger award, which is generally what the award ordered. To be clear, it sucks. I'm sure many of those Captains chose SWG preciously because of the shorter upgrade times and now, through no fault of their own, are at an airline with longer upgrade times. Thing is, it's through no fault of the WestJet Pilots either. I'm sure you'll find equal numbers of WestJet Pilots and Sunwing pilots not happy with this forced merger. It's out of our hands though.

The two groups both have positives and gripes about this merger. While I agree with some (but also disagree with some) of your positions, I don't want to get into who got the best/worst out of things as, at this point it really is kicking a dead horse and won't help move things forward.

As to why the PTM requirements were changed by the Company, I have no idea - worth an e-mail to your MLO. I do know that ALPA is grieving the Company's absurd decision to not honour Sunwing's previous Years of Service for Captains (i.e. time as an FO counting towards time on the Captain pay step).

[nohojob]

The PTM issue and the YOS put together will cause an "interesting" situation in year.
How will the company pay the newly upgraded SWG FOs ?
On what pay level will they be ?

By changing the PTM the company is avoiding to answer this question for a year.

[safetyfirst123]

To elaborate a little bit, there's a very strong sense that this aptly named "Sunwing Reduction Bid" was really designed to downgrade junior Sunwing captains who as mentioned above were "out of place." I get why Westjet pilots are unhappy with aspects of the arbitration, but it feels as though efforts are being made to punish Sunwing pilots for their overall success in the process. Yes on average Sunwing pilots gained seniority with respect to date of hire, but they lost on relative seniority and they lost working at a company with quick progression and strong lifestyle. The reduction bid, and the subsequent amendment that not only prohibits Sunwing FO's from upgrading now, but also have to fly 1,000 hours at Westjet before they are eligible to upgrade, really screams of dirty backroom deals. Westjet FO's are now benefiting from quicker upgrades thanks to the flying that Sunwing brought in and also from blocking Sunwing FO's from being able to bid for these upgrades.

A lot to unpack here.

I'll start on the main issue with respect to the changing of the PTM Experience Requirements. I don't know that back story as to why this was changed by management. In the past, experience requirements have been changed somewhat unilaterally and, again unfortunately, there's almost nothing the union can do. The union isn't perfect but any means, but that's a pretty strong accusation without any evidence on an item that the union has no control over. I'll further reiterate, I do agree with your position that this was an unfair thing for management to do - I don't agree nor do I condone it.

As for the merger bid, the Contract Section that the process followed was "a Reduction bid without layoffs" and it ultimately did lead to former SWG Captains losing their left seat 12 months after the merger award, which is generally what the award ordered. To be clear, it sucks. I'm sure many of those Captains chose SWG preciously because of the shorter upgrade times and now, through no fault of their own, are at an airline with longer upgrade times. Thing is, it's through no fault of the WestJet Pilots either. I'm sure you'll find equal numbers of WestJet Pilots and Sunwing pilots not happy with this forced merger. It's out of our hands though.

The two groups both have positives and gripes about this merger. While I agree with some (but also disagree with some) of your positions, I don't want to get into who got the best/worst out of things as, at this point it really is kicking a dead horse and won't help move things forward.

As to why the PTM requirements were changed by the Company, I have no idea - worth an e-mail to your MLO. I do know that ALPA is grieving the Company's absurd decision to not honour Sunwing's previous Years of Service for Captains (i.e. time as an FO counting towards time on the Captain pay step).

Very fair comments JBI. What I don't want is the company to win in dividing Westjet and Sunwing pilots. Both groups need to be unified especially going into CBA3 negotiations.

[cdnavater]

The PTM issue and the YOS put together will cause an "interesting" situation in year.
How will the company pay the newly upgraded SWG FOs ?
On what pay level will they be ?

By changing the PTM the company is avoiding to answer this question for a year.

I think you’re correct, not only avoiding answering the question but when the question of YOS gets answered they will undoubtedly owe back pay for not following the contract. This way they are trying to avoid a huge bill, I do believe the company has the right to set the standard for upgrades as long as it is applied to all pilots.
WJ could argue that without a training record to their standards they couldn’t determine a SW pilot’s ability to upgrade, so the clock started when you were trained to WJ standards on WJ aircraft. Not sure the union could challenge this.

[nohojob]

The PTM issue and the YOS put together will cause an "interesting" situation in year.
How will the company pay the newly upgraded SWG FOs ?
On what pay level will they be ?

By changing the PTM the company is avoiding to answer this question for a year.

I think you’re correct, not only avoiding answering the question but when the question of YOS gets answered they will undoubtedly owe back pay for not following the contract. This way they are trying to avoid a huge bill, I do believe the company has the right to set the standard for upgrades as long as it is applied to all pilots.
WJ could argue that without a training record to their standards they couldn’t determine a SW pilot’s ability to upgrade, so the clock started when you were trained to WJ standards on WJ aircraft. Not sure the union could challenge this.

The thing is that swg pilots training files were transfered to wj.
The last couple swg PPC scripts were based on wj PPC scripts.
So wj could state that swg training standards were not as high as wj, however wj stated before, that swg and wj had a very good safety record.
So I don't think they could use this argument.

[cdnavater]

The PTM issue and the YOS put together will cause an "interesting" situation in year.
How will the company pay the newly upgraded SWG FOs ?
On what pay level will they be ?

By changing the PTM the company is avoiding to answer this question for a year.

I think you’re correct, not only avoiding answering the question but when the question of YOS gets answered they will undoubtedly owe back pay for not following the contract. This way they are trying to avoid a huge bill, I do believe the company has the right to set the standard for upgrades as long as it is applied to all pilots.
WJ could argue that without a training record to their standards they couldn’t determine a SW pilot’s ability to upgrade, so the clock started when you were trained to WJ standards on WJ aircraft. Not sure the union could challenge this.

The thing is that swg pilots training files were transfered to wj.
The last couple swg PPC scripts were based on wj PPC scripts.
So wj could state that swg training standards were not as high as wj, however wj stated before, that swg and wj had a very good safety record.
So I don't think they could use this argument.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe this is to avoid paying back pay when the grievance is settled and has nothing to do with safety, I’m sure their lawyers said if you change the wording and don’t upgrade SW FOs, you can avoid the back pay issue.

[nohojob]

I think you’re correct, not only avoiding answering the question but when the question of YOS gets answered they will undoubtedly owe back pay for not following the contract. This way they are trying to avoid a huge bill, I do believe the company has the right to set the standard for upgrades as long as it is applied to all pilots.
WJ could argue that without a training record to their standards they couldn’t determine a SW pilot’s ability to upgrade, so the clock started when you were trained to WJ standards on WJ aircraft. Not sure the union could challenge this.

The thing is that swg pilots training files were transfered to wj.
The last couple swg PPC scripts were based on wj PPC scripts.
So wj could state that swg training standards were not as high as wj, however wj stated before, that swg and wj had a very good safety record.
So I don't think they could use this argument.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe this is to avoid paying back pay when the grievance is settled and has nothing to do with safety, I’m sure their lawyers said if you change the wording and don’t upgrade SW FOs, you can avoid the back pay issue.

Yes, you could be right... unfortunately.

[rudder]

If there is an action that the employer has taken that cannot be challenged under the grievance procedure of the CBA, and such action is either arbitrary and capricious or is intended to disadvantage (or harm) a particular segment of the bargaining unit population, then consideration should be given to a ULP complaint to the CIRB. Such complaint need not emanate from the bargaining agent, however, bargaining agent sponsorship would be beneficial.

[lostaviator]

To elaborate a little bit, there's a very strong sense that this aptly named "Sunwing Reduction Bid" was really designed to downgrade junior Sunwing captains who as mentioned above were "out of place." I get why Westjet pilots are unhappy with aspects of the arbitration, but it feels as though efforts are being made to punish Sunwing pilots for their overall success in the process. Yes on average Sunwing pilots gained seniority with respect to date of hire, but they lost on relative seniority and they lost working at a company with quick progression and strong lifestyle. The reduction bid, and the subsequent amendment that not only prohibits Sunwing FO's from upgrading now, but also have to fly 1,000 hours at Westjet before they are eligible to upgrade, really screams of dirty backroom deals. Westjet FO's are now benefiting from quicker upgrades thanks to the flying that Sunwing brought in and also from blocking Sunwing FO's from being able to bid for these upgrades.

The integration of sunwing flying had very little to do with the number of upgrades in the latest bid and there has been no change to the upgrade timeframe. The number of upgrades in this bid were an exact match to the number of AR pilots being shown the door. There was a net gain of 0.

I do not believe the PTM (upgrade requirements) was amended after this bid took place. The PTM was last updated on March 4. If anything, someone misinterpreted the language and the initial results were released. Someone then challenged an award based on their knowledge of the PTM which resulted in the changes.

[nohojob]

To elaborate a little bit, there's a very strong sense that this aptly named "Sunwing Reduction Bid" was really designed to downgrade junior Sunwing captains who as mentioned above were "out of place." I get why Westjet pilots are unhappy with aspects of the arbitration, but it feels as though efforts are being made to punish Sunwing pilots for their overall success in the process. Yes on average Sunwing pilots gained seniority with respect to date of hire, but they lost on relative seniority and they lost working at a company with quick progression and strong lifestyle. The reduction bid, and the subsequent amendment that not only prohibits Sunwing FO's from upgrading now, but also have to fly 1,000 hours at Westjet before they are eligible to upgrade, really screams of dirty backroom deals. Westjet FO's are now benefiting from quicker upgrades thanks to the flying that Sunwing brought in and also from blocking Sunwing FO's from being able to bid for these upgrades.

The integration of sunwing flying had very little to do with the number of upgrades in the latest bid and there has been no change to the upgrade timeframe. The number of upgrades in this bid were an exact match to the number of AR pilots being shown the door. There was a net gain of 0.

I do not believe the PTM (upgrade requirements) was amended after this bid took place. The PTM was last updated on March 4. If anything, someone misinterpreted the language and the initial results were released. Someone then challenged an award based on their knowledge of the PTM which resulted in the changes.

So there is no relation ship between the 46 capt downgraded (lots of swg guys) and the 60 upgrades ? Hum....

[safetyfirst123]

Let's not forget that suddenly Sunwing FO's need to fly 1,000 hours at Westjet before being able to upgrade, regardless of any other factor. That would include downgraded captains Sunwing captains I presume. With planned hiring of 400 pilots next year (according to management for what it's worth), that would indicate a similar number of upgrades should be planned. With the vast majority of new flying at Westjet being from Sunwing, it will be a huge slap on the face.

[daedalusx]

Fellas, fellas, it’s obviously just a coincidence that they remove that one word “group” in the last revision just before the integration and didn’t even mention it in the revision record, nor was it mentioned in the bid or anywhere else that you needed 1000hrs at WJ post integration to upgrade.

Of course, crickets from the union about this
Scumbags

[ant_321]

Fellas, fellas, it’s obviously just a coincidence that they remove that one word “group” in the last revision just before the integration and didn’t even mention it in the revision record, nor was it mentioned in the bid or anywhere else that you needed 1000hrs at WJ post integration to upgrade.

Of course, crickets from the union about this
Scumbags

+1. We all no who’s side the MEC is on.

[onspeed]

The company has played this perfectly, regrettably the Union has taken a short sighted view for half a dozen upgrades. No unity amongst the group doesn't bode well for CA3.

[truecolours]

The company has played this perfectly, regrettably the Union has taken a short sighted view for half a dozen upgrades. No unity amongst the group doesn't bode well for CA3.

I’ll bite. Even though I’m not a supporter of many current union officers (using their positions to push personal agendas over the wishes of their members), but how could the MEC have managed this differently? The company gets to choose how many pilots, how many captains, and how many first officers they require. Mergers are always going to leave some feeling mistreated.

And the company. The people running it can’t figure out how to run a Canadian airline when it gets cold. I’m not convinced a few captain positions being swapped around was part of their master plan to destroy the pilot group.

[daedalusx]

The company has played this perfectly, regrettably the Union has taken a short sighted view for half a dozen upgrades. No unity amongst the group doesn't bode well for CA3.

I’ll bite. Even though I’m not a supporter of many current union officers (using their positions to push personal agendas over the wishes of their members), but how could the MEC have managed this differently? The company gets to choose how many pilots, how many captains, and how many first officers they require. Mergers are always going to leave some feeling mistreated.

And the company. The people running it can’t figure out how to run a Canadian airline when it gets cold. I’m not convinced a few captain positions being swapped around was part of their master plan to destroy the pilot group.

The least they could do is to make a statement …

I guess there’s much more important union business like the blue jays game and the golf tournament…

[truecolours]

The company has played this perfectly, regrettably the Union has taken a short sighted view for half a dozen upgrades. No unity amongst the group doesn't bode well for CA3.

I’ll bite. Even though I’m not a supporter of many current union officers (using their positions to push personal agendas over the wishes of their members), but how could the MEC have managed this differently? The company gets to choose how many pilots, how many captains, and how many first officers they require. Mergers are always going to leave some feeling mistreated.

And the company. The people running it can’t figure out how to run a Canadian airline when it gets cold. I’m not convinced a few captain positions being swapped around was part of their master plan to destroy the pilot group.

The least they could do is to make a statement …

I guess there’s much more important union business like the blue jays game and the golf tournament…

Even an email saying they are all going to Taylor Swift!

[Maritimer]

The 1000hrs on WJ aircraft requirement has been in place for a number of years. Ask any encore pilot who stayed at encore for a lengthy period of time and then came to WJ and tried to upgrade before they met the same requirement.

That being said, I'm not sure why it is in place for SWG FOs who are "eligible" for upgrade.