Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[truedude]

ACA ALPA MEC has intervernor status because a lot of the affected JAZ ALPA pilots are now ACA ALPA pilots.

I'd expect APA ALPA MEC to support the ex-Jazz hires at AC in the same way they support non-Jazz hires at AC.

Reorganizing the seniority list is net neutral for the ACA pilots, and it could be considered a loss for the animosity it would cause. A payout and/or pay scale bump is a net gain for ACA pilots, and particularly for the affected pilots.

If that is what ACA is telling people, they are flat out lying. That is not why they got intervener status, from my understanding.

[goingnowherefast]

ACA ALPA MEC has intervernor status because a lot of the affected JAZ ALPA pilots are now ACA ALPA pilots.

I'd expect APA ALPA MEC to support the ex-Jazz hires at AC in the same way they support non-Jazz hires at AC.

Reorganizing the seniority list is net neutral for the ACA pilots, and it could be considered a loss for the animosity it would cause. A payout and/or pay scale bump is a net gain for ACA pilots, and particularly for the affected pilots.

If that is what ACA is telling people, they are flat out lying. That is not why they got intervener status, from my understanding.

In your understanding, why did the ACA ALPA MEC get intervernor status?

[truedude]

ACA ALPA MEC has intervernor status because a lot of the affected JAZ ALPA pilots are now ACA ALPA pilots.

I'd expect APA ALPA MEC to support the ex-Jazz hires at AC in the same way they support non-Jazz hires at AC.

Reorganizing the seniority list is net neutral for the ACA pilots, and it could be considered a loss for the animosity it would cause. A payout and/or pay scale bump is a net gain for ACA pilots, and particularly for the affected pilots.

If that is what ACA is telling people, they are flat out lying. That is not why they got intervener status, from my understanding.

In your understanding, why did the ACA ALPA MEC get intervernor status?

Because they were told to make the application, because whatever ends up happening could impact them and they should be at the table.

[goingnowherefast]

If that is what ACA is telling people, they are flat out lying. That is not why they got intervener status, from my understanding.

In your understanding, why did the ACA ALPA MEC get intervernor status?

Because they were told to make the application, because whatever ends up happening could impact them and they should be at the table.

Aren't we saying the same thing?
Me: here's 2 ways it'll affect AC pilots, so be involved
You: it'll affect AC pilots, so be involved

[Nick678]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

Nobody expects it but there's a chance. That crappy deal was a legally binding employment contract btw. They/we were not all college kids and that's a moot point. From an individual prospect treating someone poorly because of where they work before is shitty, they didn't choose to get screwed over by AC. Be a professional.

[altiplano]

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

Nobody expects it but there's a chance. That crappy deal was a legally binding employment contract btw. They/we were not all college kids and that's a moot point. From an individual prospect treating someone poorly because of where they work before is shitty, they didn't choose to get screwed over by AC. Be a professional.

Legally binding with Jazz and JZA ALPA. AC Pilots aren't party to it

I'm not talking about treating people based on where they worked, but based on how they acted.

You wanted to come here, here you are, and you're going to take a steaming shit on the floor of your new digs?

[truedude]

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

Nobody expects it but there's a chance. That crappy deal was a legally binding employment contract btw. They/we were not all college kids and that's a moot point. From an individual prospect treating someone poorly because of where they work before is shitty, they didn't choose to get screwed over by AC. Be a professional.

Legally binding with Jazz and JZA ALPA. AC Pilots aren't party to it

I'm not talking about treating people based on where they worked, but based on how they acted.

You wanted to come here, here you are, and you're going to take a steaming shit on the floor of your new digs?

The agreement was also legally binding with Air Canada, as Air Canada signed an agreement in 2019 regarding flow with Jazz and Jazz pilots.

[altiplano]

Nobody expects it but there's a chance. That crappy deal was a legally binding employment contract btw. They/we were not all college kids and that's a moot point. From an individual prospect treating someone poorly because of where they work before is shitty, they didn't choose to get screwed over by AC. Be a professional.

Legally binding with Jazz and JZA ALPA. AC Pilots aren't party to it

I'm not talking about treating people based on where they worked, but based on how they acted.

You wanted to come here, here you are, and you're going to take a steaming shit on the floor of your new digs?

The agreement was also legally binding with Air Canada, as Air Canada signed an agreement in 2019 regarding flow with Jazz and Jazz pilots.

Again. AC Pilots aren't party to it and it's their seniority list, Air Canada doesn't own the seniority list.

Go get paid. But if you come for a seniority shuffle you divide and hurt the group you're now a part of. It costs pilots, not Air Canada or Jazz, wouldn't they like that. This is your choice. Quiet and lonely career ahead...

[cdnavater]

Legally binding with Jazz and JZA ALPA. AC Pilots aren't party to it

I'm not talking about treating people based on where they worked, but based on how they acted.

You wanted to come here, here you are, and you're going to take a steaming shit on the floor of your new digs?

The agreement was also legally binding with Air Canada, as Air Canada signed an agreement in 2019 regarding flow with Jazz and Jazz pilots.

Again. AC Pilots aren't party to it and it's their seniority list, Air Canada doesn't own the seniority list.

Go get paid. But if you come for a seniority shuffle you divide and hurt the group you're now a part of. It costs pilots, not Air Canada or Jazz, wouldn't they like that. This is your choice. Quiet and lonely career ahead...

The fact AC pilots own the list is very likely why they were given intervenor status, the possibility of the arbitration awarding some type of seniority shuffle is very much on the table.
To be fair, no one knows exactly what is being proposed other than those in the room and I don’t feel as though it’s being driven by the ex Jazz pilots who are now AC pilots, the proposal is by the Jazz MEC and likely included some type of combined seniority list but that is just a guess. It is coming to an end and whatever it is will be known soon, hopefully before the end of the year.
My hope is simple, just what was agreed to plus back pay, some type of special payout for violating our scope(PAL flying) and as for the loss of seniority, I don’t have an opinion because it didn’t affect me.

[truedude]

Legally binding with Jazz and JZA ALPA. AC Pilots aren't party to it

I'm not talking about treating people based on where they worked, but based on how they acted.

You wanted to come here, here you are, and you're going to take a steaming shit on the floor of your new digs?

The agreement was also legally binding with Air Canada, as Air Canada signed an agreement in 2019 regarding flow with Jazz and Jazz pilots.

Again. AC Pilots aren't party to it and it's their seniority list, Air Canada doesn't own the seniority list.

Go get paid. But if you come for a seniority shuffle you divide and hurt the group you're now a part of. It costs pilots, not Air Canada or Jazz, wouldn't they like that. This is your choice. Quiet and lonely career ahead...

If there is a shuffle, direct your anger at your employer, not the people seeking justice. Your employer violated a binding agreement. There needs to be consequences. And everyone that was hired knew that AC had violated the agreement, and surely must have known Jazz pilots were going to seek some sort of redress. So everyone hired took employment knowing fully many of those spots should have been Jazz pilots.

[altiplano]

The agreement was also legally binding with Air Canada, as Air Canada signed an agreement in 2019 regarding flow with Jazz and Jazz pilots.

Again. AC Pilots aren't party to it and it's their seniority list, Air Canada doesn't own the seniority list.

Go get paid. But if you come for a seniority shuffle you divide and hurt the group you're now a part of. It costs pilots, not Air Canada or Jazz, wouldn't they like that. This is your choice. Quiet and lonely career ahead...

If there is a shuffle, direct your anger at your employer, not the people seeking justice. Your employer violated a binding agreement. There needs to be consequences. And everyone that was hired knew that AC had violated the agreement, and surely must have known Jazz pilots were going to seek some sort of redress. So everyone hired took employment knowing fully many of those spots should have been Jazz pilots.

Sounds more like a pinky swear to me. How can a company you don't even work at have an binding employment agreement with you? Why would anyone being hired think that isn't their position take.

Your issue is with your employer, and probably should be with your JZA MEC too for pushing through things like 17 year agreements and ridiculous incentives like getting to quit and go work somewhere else. Go get paid and leave other pilots from other companies out of it.

[truedude]

Again. AC Pilots aren't party to it and it's their seniority list, Air Canada doesn't own the seniority list.

Go get paid. But if you come for a seniority shuffle you divide and hurt the group you're now a part of. It costs pilots, not Air Canada or Jazz, wouldn't they like that. This is your choice. Quiet and lonely career ahead...

If there is a shuffle, direct your anger at your employer, not the people seeking justice. Your employer violated a binding agreement. There needs to be consequences. And everyone that was hired knew that AC had violated the agreement, and surely must have known Jazz pilots were going to seek some sort of redress. So everyone hired took employment knowing fully many of those spots should have been Jazz pilots.

Sounds more like a pinky swear to me. How can a company you don't even work at have an binding employment agreement with you? Why would anyone being hired think that isn't their position take.

Your issue is with your employer, and probably should be with your JZA MEC too for pushing through things like 17 year agreements and ridiculous incentives like getting to quit and go work somewhere else. Go get paid and leave other pilots from other companies out of it.

It was a written and signed agreement, and it is binding. By the same logic, how can another company come in and dictate pay at another company as AC did for Jazz pilots. As you can see, the line is quite blurry as to who Jazz pilots actually work for...

A common employer I don't think is currently before the CIRB, but it could be next...

[altiplano]

If there is a shuffle, direct your anger at your employer, not the people seeking justice. Your employer violated a binding agreement. There needs to be consequences. And everyone that was hired knew that AC had violated the agreement, and surely must have known Jazz pilots were going to seek some sort of redress. So everyone hired took employment knowing fully many of those spots should have been Jazz pilots.

Sounds more like a pinky swear to me. How can a company you don't even work at have an binding employment agreement with you? Why would anyone being hired think that isn't their position take.

Your issue is with your employer, and probably should be with your JZA MEC too for pushing through things like 17 year agreements and ridiculous incentives like getting to quit and go work somewhere else. Go get paid and leave other pilots from other companies out of it.

It was a written and signed agreement, and it is binding. By the same logic, how can another company come in and dictate pay at another company as AC did for Jazz pilots. As you can see, the line is quite blurry as to who Jazz pilots actually work for...

A common employer I don't think is currently before the CIRB, but it could be next...

Exactly. What the hell were you guys thinking? 3rd party dictate terms? You voted for it! AC is JZ's customer, not your employer, they're a third party to your deal, and AC pilots are no party to your deal.

Common employer, here it goes again, already failed, and that was when AC actually owned JZ.

[truedude]

Sounds more like a pinky swear to me. How can a company you don't even work at have an binding employment agreement with you? Why would anyone being hired think that isn't their position take.

Your issue is with your employer, and probably should be with your JZA MEC too for pushing through things like 17 year agreements and ridiculous incentives like getting to quit and go work somewhere else. Go get paid and leave other pilots from other companies out of it.

It was a written and signed agreement, and it is binding. By the same logic, how can another company come in and dictate pay at another company as AC did for Jazz pilots. As you can see, the line is quite blurry as to who Jazz pilots actually work for...

A common employer I don't think is currently before the CIRB, but it could be next...

Exactly. What the hell were you guys thinking? 3rd party dictate terms? You voted for it! AC is JZ's customer, not your employer, they're a third party to your deal, and AC pilots are no party to your deal.

Common employer, here it goes again, already failed, and that was when AC actually owned JZ.

When AC dictates the terms of our contract, they crossed a line. That didn't happen before. Again, AC signed, and agreed to terms in our 2019 contract. The bonus money paid to more senior pilots also came directly from AC, and was their idea.

AC dictates our contract, our negotiations. Jazz doesn't seem to have any say when it comes to its own employees. The fact that AC violating terms it agreed to might impact you is simply a consequence of you working for an employer that doesn't beleive it needs to follow contacts it signs.

If anything, you should be hoping we win, because if we don't get anything significant, all AC will do is learn they can keep violating agreements as they see fit.

[altiplano]

i can see that we're going to go in circles...

But a labour contract is between you and your employer, not you and a third party. And they didn't impose shit, you guys voted for it!

[cdnavater]

i can see that we're going to go in circles...

But a labour contract is between you and your employer, not you and a third party. And they didn't impose shit, you guys voted for it!

Yep, round and round we go, except we didn’t get to vote on the negotiated agreement, we got to vote on the imposed agreement. The fact we voted for it is not relevant, well relevant to the fact we would have voted for the other one also.
By the way, your opinion on the matter is not relevant either, as you have absolutely nothing to say about the outcome, the same way we don’t but YOUR employer muddied the waters by their actions that had a direct impact on Jazz pilots!

[PostmasterGeneral]

It was a written and signed agreement, and it is binding. By the same logic, how can another company come in and dictate pay at another company as AC did for Jazz pilots. As you can see, the line is quite blurry as to who Jazz pilots actually work for...

A common employer I don't think is currently before the CIRB, but it could be next...

Exactly. What the hell were you guys thinking? 3rd party dictate terms? You voted for it! AC is JZ's customer, not your employer, they're a third party to your deal, and AC pilots are no party to your deal.

Common employer, here it goes again, already failed, and that was when AC actually owned JZ.

When AC dictates the terms of our contract, they crossed a line. That didn't happen before. Again, AC signed, and agreed to terms in our 2019 contract. The bonus money paid to more senior pilots also came directly from AC, and was their idea.

AC dictates our contract, our negotiations. Jazz doesn't seem to have any say when it comes to its own employees. The fact that AC violating terms it agreed to might impact you is simply a consequence of you working for an employer that doesn't beleive it needs to follow contacts it signs.

If anything, you should be hoping we win, because if we don't get anything significant, all AC will do is learn they can keep violating agreements as they see fit.

You guys voted for it. As stupid as it was, the fact that you AGREED to it via majority, means you willingly accepted those terms. The CIRB will use that to form their judgement.

Maybe had you voted no, you’d have a leg to stand on.

[truedude]

Exactly. What the hell were you guys thinking? 3rd party dictate terms? You voted for it! AC is JZ's customer, not your employer, they're a third party to your deal, and AC pilots are no party to your deal.

Common employer, here it goes again, already failed, and that was when AC actually owned JZ.

When AC dictates the terms of our contract, they crossed a line. That didn't happen before. Again, AC signed, and agreed to terms in our 2019 contract. The bonus money paid to more senior pilots also came directly from AC, and was their idea.

AC dictates our contract, our negotiations. Jazz doesn't seem to have any say when it comes to its own employees. The fact that AC violating terms it agreed to might impact you is simply a consequence of you working for an employer that doesn't beleive it needs to follow contacts it signs.

If anything, you should be hoping we win, because if we don't get anything significant, all AC will do is learn they can keep violating agreements as they see fit.

You guys voted for it. As stupid as it was, the fact that you AGREED to it via majority, means you willingly accepted those terms. The CIRB will use that to form their judgement.

Maybe had you voted no, you’d have a leg to stand on.

That doesn't change the interference, and that as a result of that interference we didnt get to vote on the contract negotiated. Thats the case. The fact that we voted on what was described as a take it or leave it offer handed down by a company that we contract to and doesn't employ us doesn't change the interference, but makes it worse. Be cause then the question becomes, who are we negotiating with if our own company as zero autonomy to make conteact agreements. Thats the case! Your legal understanding is virtually nonexistent.

[altiplano]

You voted YES.
You could have voted NO.
These aren't Jazz pilots anymore. They quit!

I'm cheering for you to get paid, and slap AC, but stay out of other pilot group seniority. It's a bad look for ALL of you.

[truedude]

You voted YES.
You could have voted NO.
These aren't Jazz pilots anymore. They quit!

I'm cheering for you to get paid, and slap AC, but stay out of other pilot group seniority. It's a bad look for ALL of you.

Because any if us care what you think...

[fixnfly]

From my understanding, this ULP dispute will not affect 90% of the pilots seniority at AC. The 200 or so Jazz pilots that were affected would jump up like 400-500 numbers above those that were OTS hires in 2023 if they're given a start date at the end of 2022 to fulfill the hiring requirements set out by AC for that year. The OTS hires that were hired after the 200 Jazz pilots were brought on won't be affected nor will the OTS hires that were hired before 2023.

[Jfthepilot]

Altipiano, you’re free to voice your opinion here, but the fact remains: the CIRB has full authority to adjust a seniority list, even if the list is “owned” by the union.

Here’s what you can realistically expect from this case:

Compensation for current Jazz pilots – This stems from the PAL Agreement, Air Canada’s direct intervention in Jazz negotiations, and the lost opportunities caused by keeping the 295 on the roster, which delayed upgrades and base transfers.

Seniority adjustment for the original 295 applicants (2022) – Most likely placing them back to a 2022 date (possibly December 31st), which will impact any AC pilot hired between January 2023 and today who currently sits above one of those 295.

Compensation for AC pilots who lose seniority – Anyone whose position on the list is negatively affected should expect some form of remedy.

This isn’t speculation, it’s the logical outcome when a ULP is upheld and the CIRB orders corrective measures. The timelines and exact remedies will be determined by the Board, but the principle is already established: when seniority harm is proven, the CIRB can and will correct it, regardless of internal union claims.

[Nick678]

Altipiano, you’re free to voice your opinion here, but the fact remains: the CIRB has full authority to adjust a seniority list, even if the list is “owned” by the union.

Here’s what you can realistically expect from this case:

Compensation for current Jazz pilots – This stems from the PAL Agreement, Air Canada’s direct intervention in Jazz negotiations, and the lost opportunities caused by keeping the 295 on the roster, which delayed upgrades and base transfers.

Seniority adjustment for the original 295 applicants (2022) – Most likely placing them back to a 2022 date (possibly December 31st), which will impact any AC pilot hired between January 2023 and today who currently sits above one of those 295.

Compensation for AC pilots who lose seniority – Anyone whose position on the list is negatively affected should expect some form of remedy.

This isn’t speculation, it’s the logical outcome when a ULP is upheld and the CIRB orders corrective measures. The timelines and exact remedies will be determined by the Board, but the principle is already established: when seniority harm is proven, the CIRB can and will correct it, regardless of internal union claims.

I couldn't agree more with this but Claude is at the helm here. I haven't heard that common employer has been applied for but I have heard that Jazz MEC is trying to a get a full seniority integration for everyone at Jazz. This wasn't the originally ask and caught the ACA MEC off guard. Rumour of course. I guess I can't blame him for shooting for the stars but this would rattle a few pilots at AC.

[truedude]

Altipiano, you’re free to voice your opinion here, but the fact remains: the CIRB has full authority to adjust a seniority list, even if the list is “owned” by the union.

Here’s what you can realistically expect from this case:

Compensation for current Jazz pilots – This stems from the PAL Agreement, Air Canada’s direct intervention in Jazz negotiations, and the lost opportunities caused by keeping the 295 on the roster, which delayed upgrades and base transfers.

Seniority adjustment for the original 295 applicants (2022) – Most likely placing them back to a 2022 date (possibly December 31st), which will impact any AC pilot hired between January 2023 and today who currently sits above one of those 295.

Compensation for AC pilots who lose seniority – Anyone whose position on the list is negatively affected should expect some form of remedy.

This isn’t speculation, it’s the logical outcome when a ULP is upheld and the CIRB orders corrective measures. The timelines and exact remedies will be determined by the Board, but the principle is already established: when seniority harm is proven, the CIRB can and will correct it, regardless of internal union claims.

I couldn't agree more with this but Claude is at the helm here. I haven't heard that common employer has been applied for but I have heard that Jazz MEC is trying to a get a full seniority integration for everyone at Jazz. This wasn't the originally ask and caught the ACA MEC off guard. Rumour of course. I guess I can't blame him for shooting for the stars but this would rattle a few pilots at AC.

That would definitely ruffle some feathers... But in the long run they would also have full control of all flying. Simply make an agreement that all teir 2 flying is forever staffed by ACA pilots. Take anyone without an ATPL and BOTL them; combine that with the number of pilots set to retire in the next 5 years... wouldnt take many fences to have the impact be nothing more than a small blip... Everything else would just be egos... but for that we have beer.

[Nick678]

Altipiano, you’re free to voice your opinion here, but the fact remains: the CIRB has full authority to adjust a seniority list, even if the list is “owned” by the union.

Here’s what you can realistically expect from this case:

Compensation for current Jazz pilots – This stems from the PAL Agreement, Air Canada’s direct intervention in Jazz negotiations, and the lost opportunities caused by keeping the 295 on the roster, which delayed upgrades and base transfers.

Seniority adjustment for the original 295 applicants (2022) – Most likely placing them back to a 2022 date (possibly December 31st), which will impact any AC pilot hired between January 2023 and today who currently sits above one of those 295.

Compensation for AC pilots who lose seniority – Anyone whose position on the list is negatively affected should expect some form of remedy.

This isn’t speculation, it’s the logical outcome when a ULP is upheld and the CIRB orders corrective measures. The timelines and exact remedies will be determined by the Board, but the principle is already established: when seniority harm is proven, the CIRB can and will correct it, regardless of internal union claims.

I couldn't agree more with this but Claude is at the helm here. I haven't heard that common employer has been applied for but I have heard that Jazz MEC is trying to a get a full seniority integration for everyone at Jazz. This wasn't the originally ask and caught the ACA MEC off guard. Rumour of course. I guess I can't blame him for shooting for the stars but this would rattle a few pilots at AC.

That would definitely ruffle some feathers... But in the long run they would also have full control of all flying. Simply make an agreement that all teir 2 flying is forever staffed by ACA pilots. Take anyone without an ATPL and BOTL them; combine that with the number of pilots set to retire in the next 5 years... wouldnt take many fences to have the impact be nothing more than a small blip... Everything else would just be egos... but for that we have beer.

In a DOH seniority solution Jazz pilots would be now senior to former jazz pilots that came to AC in the past. I don't think this is a feasible solution. As a Jazz pilot this would be a lottery win though.