Westjet 737 Gear collapse in SXM today

[pelmet]

Maybe, just maybe he was slightly nervous ?

I can't even understand the Westjet pilot when he speaks. Is there an English proficiency issues with some of their pilots?

Disrespectful comment. Consider that listening to LiveATC transmissions like what we heard is not like being in the tower or airplane. From the info that we have right now, the situation was handled very well by the crew.

What is disrespectful in a paying passenger demanding that their crewmember has the ability to speak English clearly in an emergency situation so that the fire trucks can be rolled IMMEDIATELY. The airplane could be on fire. LiveATC transmissions may not be like being in the tower, but the tower didn't understand them either, so what does that say?

Westjet should ensure that the pilots they hire can speak English CLEARLY when nervous/excited. Not being able to communicate properly is not handling a situation well. I wonder how the emergency checklist verbiage went. Don't you think this is important? But I guess political correctness is more important.

TBH, I have worked with foreign language pilots and this reminds me of being in the sim where you miss most of what they say on an emergency checklist and wait for "XXXXXXX Checklist Complete".

[goldeneagle]

Another example of poor radio work.

If you need the trucks, start with "Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan".

It's really not hard, and it gets the message across clearly. Especially if there's any language barrier.

I can't even understand the Westjet pilot when he speaks. Is there an English proficiency issues with some of their pilots?

I had no problem understanding the WJ pilot. Maybe it's your airline that has english proficiency issues if you folks cant understand it thru a very light accent.

[goldeneagle]

What is disrespectful in a paying passenger demanding that their crewmember has the ability to speak English clearly

Were you a paying passenger on that flight ? Or are you just making an issue because you want to stir the shit pot

[ant_321]

That English sounds fine to me. I had to listed a second time before I even noticed the accent. The “send crash and fire rescue” call that he stumbled over a little is a WestJetism I don’t like. Make a mayday call and the trucks will start rolling.

[pelmet]

Were you a paying passenger on that flight ? Or are you just making an issue because you want to stir the shit pot

What difference does that make? Zero.

Another example of poor radio work.

If you need the trucks, start with "Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan".

It's really not hard, and it gets the message across clearly. Especially if there's any language barrier.

I can't even understand the Westjet pilot when he speaks. Is there an English proficiency issues with some of their pilots?

I had no problem understanding the WJ pilot. Maybe it's your airline that has english proficiency issues if you folks cant understand it thru a very light accent.

Nice try Golden. Please explain why the controller didn't understand his request for emergency equipment if he was so clearly spoken. Don't expect an answer from Golden Eagle.

And yes, my company which hires loads of people from around the world has huge issues with language, despite all having to pass an English proficiency test. Understandable in a part of the world where English is not common and they don't have the same hiring options as WJ.

That English sounds fine to me. I had to listed a second time before I even noticed the accent. The “send crash and fire rescue” call that he stumbled over a little is a WestJetism I don’t like. Make a mayday call and the trucks will start rolling.

Crash/Fire Rescue(CFR) isn't a WestJetism, it is an ICAO term.

I guess in the end, we should honestly ask....how important is it that a pilot of an airliner can clearly communicate the details of an emergency situation when in a very stressful state? Based on what I have seen so far, I don't expect honest answers(disrespectful, were you a paying passenger on that exact flight, it was clear communication).

[lostaviator]

The first request for assistance wasn't clear. The second one was fine. I am guessing shock was a factor in the first. There was also a blocked transmission when the controller was giving them taxi instructions.

Yes, you can say "pilots shouldn't be shocked because we train for this", but we are all humans and the real world isn't sim. Watch Sully again if needed to understand the startle factor.

WJ does train to start transmissions with mayday, or pan pan. It has been a debrief item in sim for the last five years or so.

[RoAF-Mig21]

It's funny when "Canadian/American" pilots complain about English proficiency, when they're the most undisciplined communicators in the sky, opting to use their own phrases instead of ICAO standard phraseology. Some examples I've heard:

"We'll keep the coals on the fire"
"We'll get'er done"
"Rog..."
"We'll dive 'er"...
...etc.

With that being said, even with an accent (which I do have as well, not being a native English speaker), you need to be "loud", "clear" and "concise". The use of PAN PAN or MAYDAY is seldom used in Canada/USA, when they should indeed use them, when the situation requires it.

[pelmet]

I just found it very difficult to understand their transmission of stopping on the runway and the request for CFR. It was the combination of the two that made me feel that there is a serious issue. Sure, after the third time reviewing the incident when we know that he is talking about stopping on the runway, it is much easier to understand.

As a comparison, here is the same information provided on an RTO in LAS. Spoken slowly, deliberately, and clearly(but can be understood despite blocking transmissions).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PU5lvyC4clQ

How would you guys rate the two examples?

[pelmet]

It's funny when "Canadian/American" pilots complain about English proficiency, when they're the most undisciplined communicators in the sky, opting to use their own phrases instead of ICAO standard phraseology. Some examples I've heard:

"We'll keep the coals on the fire"
"We'll get'er done"
"Rog..."
"We'll dive 'er"...
...etc.

With that being said, even with an accent (which I do have as well, not being a native English speaker), you need to be "loud", "clear" and "concise". The use of PAN PAN or MAYDAY is seldom used in Canada/USA, when they should indeed use them, when the situation requires it.

WJ uses MayDay for every RTO(as has been discussed on this forum more than once), even the most minor of ones. Which means they practice it a lot in the sim, which means that it is not seldomly used.

[RoAF-Mig21]

WJ uses MayDay for every RTO, even the most minor of ones.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular. It's just a general observation about North America in general, especially in the US.

[kevind]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMDzxDvdC0

[JBI]

Another example of poor radio work.

If you need the trucks, start with "Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan".

It's really not hard, and it gets the message across clearly. Especially if there's any language barrier.

From the TC AIM, emphasis mine:

4.1
Declaring an Emergency
An emergency condition is classified in accordance with the
degree of danger or hazard being experienced, as follows:

(a) Distress [MAYDAY]—A condition of being threatened by serious and/
or imminent danger and requiring immediate assistance.

(b) Urgency [PAN-PAN]—A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft
or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight,
which does not require immediate assistance.

The radiotelephone distress signal, MAYDAY, and the
radiotelephone urgency signal, PAN PAN, must be used at the
beginning of the first distress or urgency communication,
respectively, and, if considered necessary, at the beginning of
any subsequent communication.

MAYDAY is used when you need immediate assistance. Why would you use PAN-PAN x3 if you need the immediate assistance of crash-fire-rescue? That would be poor radio work.

The pilot clearly stated "send crash fire rescue" after the initial call which was partially blocked. He could have also stated MAYDAY prior to the transmission to indicate needing immediate assistance.

[cdnavater]

Another example of poor radio work.

If you need the trucks, start with "Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan".

It's really not hard, and it gets the message across clearly. Especially if there's any language barrier.

From the TC AIM, emphasis mine:

4.1
Declaring an Emergency
An emergency condition is classified in accordance with the
degree of danger or hazard being experienced, as follows:

(a) Distress [MAYDAY]—A condition of being threatened by serious and/
or imminent danger and requiring immediate assistance.

(b) Urgency [PAN-PAN]—A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft
or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight,
which does not require immediate assistance.

The radiotelephone distress signal, MAYDAY, and the
radiotelephone urgency signal, PAN PAN, must be used at the
beginning of the first distress or urgency communication,
respectively, and, if considered necessary, at the beginning of
any subsequent communication.

MAYDAY is used when you need immediate assistance. Why would you use PAN-PAN x3 if you need the immediate assistance of crash-fire-rescue? That would be poor radio work.

The pilot clearly stated "send crash fire rescue" after the initial call which was partially blocked. He could have also stated MAYDAY prior to the transmission to indicate needing immediate assistance.

The problem as I see it is that MAYDAY is misused, possibly leading to the apprehension of its use by others!
It has been discussed that Encore uses MAYDAY for every RTO, even one where they knew the very real possibility that the airspeed indicator might not work, an expected event leading to a low speed rejection culminating in a MAYDAY call.
I see it at our company where in training, the candidates with an engine fire tell “ATC” that they are dealing with a problem and to standby, less words to say “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, standby then what they actually say but there is definitely apprehension in using this terminology.
In this incident we will eventually find out exactly what was said I suspect, I haven’t listened to the audio again to see how long the call was stepped on but I heard no part of MAYDAY in it, perhaps but likely not. Was it warranted, seems so but we also don’t know what they thought, maybe they thought they blew two tires and they clearly managed to keep it straight down the runway. Definitely some skill and quick reaction here.
The landing was hard but from what I’ve seen, I’m a bit surprised about the outcome, I’ll be interested in the report.

[JBI]

The problem as I see it is that MAYDAY is misused, possibly leading to the apprehension of its use by others!
It has been discussed that Encore uses MAYDAY for every RTO, even one where they knew the very real possibility that the airspeed indicator might not work, an expected event leading to a low speed rejection culminating in a MAYDAY call.
I see it at our company where in training, the candidates with an engine fire tell “ATC” that they are dealing with a problem and to standby, less words to say “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, standby then what they actually say but there is definitely apprehension in using this terminology.
In this incident we will eventually find out exactly what was said I suspect, I haven’t listened to the audio again to see how long the call was stepped on but I heard no part of MAYDAY in it, perhaps but likely not. Was it warranted, seems so but we also don’t know what they thought, maybe they thought they blew two tires and they clearly managed to keep it straight down the runway. Definitely some skill and quick reaction here.
The landing was hard but from what I’ve seen, I’m a bit surprised about the outcome, I’ll be interested in the report.

cdnavater, I mostly agree.

I just want to clarify that I'm not criticizing the pilots in SXM for not using MAYDAY. Having been involved in a few TSB investigations representing pilots & operators, I really try to wait til the report before commenting on an incident/accident and even then, trying to learn from the recommendations rather than judge (though there are a few where you can judge - Aeroflot 6502 for example https://asn.flightsafety.org/asndb/326909)

I am criticizing the poster who judged that it was "another example of poor radio work" and then went on to give a demonstrably wrong suggestion on what the crew should have done. Criticizing a crew when so few details have been published is one thing, but then to be wrong on what you suggest that they should have done is another.

As for the Mayday issue. It's an interesting one and I think you and I generally agree. I remember being critical of being taught to call Mayday on every RTO (I'm not certain, but I think things have been revised at Encore) for the exact reason that you outline - if you clearly know that you're rejecting for an issue that isn't an emergency, why would you declare a MAYDAY? That being said, in 25 years (15 active) of flying, I've only been operating where 2 emergencies were declared by other aircraft (both times we were on the ground taxiing while the aircraft was arriving). Both times, thankfully, the landings were uneventful and the plane exited the runway on its own power. Nobody suggested that the pilots shouldn't have called Mayday. I have had to call PAN-PAN once and, again thankfully, ended up being a non-issue. No one questioned whether we should have declared something. I'd posit that if there is any uncertainty that you may need emergency assistance, there's nothing wrong with declaring MAYDAY. Better to err on the side of caution and receive assistance sooner than realize a little too late that you need assistance.

[fish4life]

If you need CFR I don’t see the point of not using Mayday x3.
A) it triggers a response in the tower
B) it tells everyone else on freq to not talk and go into listening mode so you don’t have people stepping in on the radio while crucial information between you and the tower are being transmitted.

[cdnavater]

The problem as I see it is that MAYDAY is misused, possibly leading to the apprehension of its use by others!
It has been discussed that Encore uses MAYDAY for every RTO, even one where they knew the very real possibility that the airspeed indicator might not work, an expected event leading to a low speed rejection culminating in a MAYDAY call.
I see it at our company where in training, the candidates with an engine fire tell “ATC” that they are dealing with a problem and to standby, less words to say “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, standby then what they actually say but there is definitely apprehension in using this terminology.
In this incident we will eventually find out exactly what was said I suspect, I haven’t listened to the audio again to see how long the call was stepped on but I heard no part of MAYDAY in it, perhaps but likely not. Was it warranted, seems so but we also don’t know what they thought, maybe they thought they blew two tires and they clearly managed to keep it straight down the runway. Definitely some skill and quick reaction here.
The landing was hard but from what I’ve seen, I’m a bit surprised about the outcome, I’ll be interested in the report.

cdnavater, I mostly agree.

I just want to clarify that I'm not criticizing the pilots in SXM for not using MAYDAY. Having been involved in a few TSB investigations representing pilots & operators, I really try to wait til the report before commenting on an incident/accident and even then, trying to learn from the recommendations rather than judge (though there are a few where you can judge - Aeroflot 6502 for example https://asn.flightsafety.org/asndb/326909)

I am criticizing the poster who judged that it was "another example of poor radio work" and then went on to give a demonstrably wrong suggestion on what the crew should have done. Criticizing a crew when so few details have been published is one thing, but then to be wrong on what you suggest that they should have done is another.

As for the Mayday issue. It's an interesting one and I think you and I generally agree. I remember being critical of being taught to call Mayday on every RTO (I'm not certain, but I think things have been revised at Encore) for the exact reason that you outline - if you clearly know that you're rejecting for an issue that isn't an emergency, why would you declare a MAYDAY? That being said, in 25 years (15 active) of flying, I've only been operating where 2 emergencies were declared by other aircraft (both times we were on the ground taxiing while the aircraft was arriving). Both times, thankfully, the landings were uneventful and the plane exited the runway on its own power. Nobody suggested that the pilots shouldn't have called Mayday. I have had to call PAN-PAN once and, again thankfully, ended up being a non-issue. No one questioned whether we should have declared something. I'd posit that if there is any uncertainty that you may need emergency assistance, there's nothing wrong with declaring MAYDAY. Better to err on the side of caution and receive assistance sooner than realize a little too late that you need assistance.

Yes, and to be clear I’m not judging the crew either, it’s very easy in hindsight to say something like, they should’ve called MAYDAY but we simply don’t know if they did or even thought it was warranted. I assume asking for CFR was an indication they knew it might be needed as a precaution, I’ll also add, good job to the crew keeping it on the runway, could have been much worse.

[rudder]

No armchair quarterbacking but…..

It is common practice in ESL international operations to be unambiguously clear in all R/T. ESL controllers do not typically understand nuance to non-standard English phraseology. And we were taught that ‘MAYDAY’ is the one call that will not be misunderstood.

So, if you are disabled on an active runway in a foreign country in an unusual attitude (total or partial gear collapse) without knowing if you are leaking fuel or fluids then your best resource for information or confirmation will be from the outside (either controller or CFR). A ‘MAYDAY’ call will automatically summon CFR.

As for the gear - there is a lot of imagery and video out there not already linked to this web board. The trunnion failure appears to be the cause of the gear partial collapse. It will remain to be determined if that failure was induced or resultant from prior metal fatigue.

[Donald]

Sorry for not being clear with you JBI, but this is the point that needs to be made:

It's funny when "Canadian/American" pilots complain about English proficiency, when they're the most undisciplined communicators in the sky, opting to use their own phrases instead of ICAO standard phraseology. Some examples I've heard:

"We'll keep the coals on the fire"
"We'll get'er done"
"Rog..."
"We'll dive 'er"...
...etc.

With that being said, even with an accent (which I do have as well, not being a native English speaker), you need to be "loud", "clear" and "concise". The use of PAN PAN or MAYDAY is seldom used in Canada/USA, when they should indeed use them, when the situation requires it.

I try not to judge before the report comes out as well, but in this day and age, we all hear the ATC audio immediately. Knowing what the entire situation ended up as, and the resultant evacuation, yes it would warrant a Mayday. However the initial, "we are stopping on the runway", followed by a "send CFR", were not sufficient. Hopefully this discussion will get people thinking about how they will communicate in an emergency.

Good job keeping it on the runway, we'll see what the rest of the report says.

[cncpc]

Maybe, just maybe he was slightly nervous ?

I can't even understand the Westjet pilot when he speaks. Is there an English proficiency issues with some of their pilots?

Disrespectful comment. Consider that listening to LiveATC transmissions like what we heard is not like being in the tower or airplane. From the info that we have right now, the situation was handled very well by the crew.

TBH, I have worked with foreign language pilots and this reminds me of being in the sim where you miss most of what they say on an emergency checklist and wait for "XXXXXXX Checklist Complete".

Well, I suppose that's just you, isn't it?

[pelmet]

Maybe, just maybe he was slightly nervous ?

Disrespectful comment. Consider that listening to LiveATC transmissions like what we heard is not like being in the tower or airplane. From the info that we have right now, the situation was handled very well by the crew.

TBH, I have worked with foreign language pilots and this reminds me of being in the sim where you miss most of what they say on an emergency checklist and wait for "XXXXXXX Checklist Complete".

Well, I suppose that's just you, isn't it?

No, actually.

The worst I encountered was a Spanish guy they hired. Fortunately, his flying was as bad as his English and the let him go. He was replaced by an Italian guy who was a bit better.

[Eric Janson]

It's funny when "Canadian/American" pilots complain about English proficiency, when they're the most undisciplined communicators in the sky, opting to use their own phrases instead of ICAO standard phraseology.

I guess you haven't flown much outside N America.

I would rate India as the most undisciplined communicators.

Then there are the countries where ATC is done in one of the 5 other ICAO approved ATC languages. English language services must be available as well but the level of 'English' varies.

Then there are countries where they do ATC in the local language which is not one of the 6 ICAO approved languages for ATC.

Then there are the countries with no ATC where you use TIBA procedures (yes - I'm not making that up!).


Finally - just to add to the "Mayday" call discussion.

You can downgrade from "Mayday" if things change - it's not an irreversible action.

In the RTO scenario - declaring "Mayday" evaluating and then downgrading as required is a perfectly acceptable course of action.


The runway in SXM is open again - looks like a good job moving the 737 off the runway.

[Airbrake]

https://youtu.be/Rjm7TqJCN8c


The removal in high speed.

[Inverted2]

https://youtu.be/Rjm7TqJCN8c


The removal in high speed.

It’s hard to tell but it looks like the gear re-collapsed and the crane dropped it at around the 2:20 mark.

[goldeneagle]

https://youtu.be/Rjm7TqJCN8c


The removal in high speed.

It’s hard to tell but it looks like the gear re-collapsed and the crane dropped it at around the 2:20 mark.

It's a time lapse so things will look faster and more abrupt than they actually were. If you play it back at 1/4 speed, it looks more like they set it down rather than dropped it.

[SpyPilot]

Agree. Played it back at .25 and it was a set back down and a re-position. Props to all involved and well done.

Amazed to see the nose gear right on the center line after the right MLG collapsing. Props to the crew for pulling that off.

To all you pudknockers faulting the RT. STFU. Looking at you pelmet.